I saw a picture somewhere that showed the truck on two of the tracks, with debris over all three. I can't find it in any of my usual places now. Of course, that was the aftermath--I don't have any idea where the truck was before the collision, nor do I know which track the train was using.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
BaltACD Euclid Do we know that the truck was parked when it was hit? Is it possible that the truck was being maneuvered in the process of parking or leaving, and accidentally moved into the foul zone just as the train showed up? We don't know and it is doubtful that we ever will since there were no fatalities and thus no NTSB or FRA investigation that will be made public.
Euclid Do we know that the truck was parked when it was hit? Is it possible that the truck was being maneuvered in the process of parking or leaving, and accidentally moved into the foul zone just as the train showed up?
We don't know and it is doubtful that we ever will since there were no fatalities and thus no NTSB or FRA investigation that will be made public.
I can see what you mean. About the only way that any word could get out would be by word of mouth by people close to the accident. I was just thinking that the easy first impression was that the truck was parked too close to the track. But it may not have happened that way at all.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimmThis may seem common sense obvious, but unless they were working on the track, why park the truck so near the track?
This may well be the $64,000 question....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
This may seem common sense obvious, but unless they were working on the track, why park the truck so near the track? That would avoid all the paperwork.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ricktrains4824 n012944 ricktrains4824 While we do know that the Amtrak train struck a company vehicle, what we do not know is which one was where it should not have been... Either the BNSF welder crew was not supposed to be that close, or the DS had the Amtrak train in the wrong spot. Or the welder had a Form B/707/whatever the BNSF calls an employee in charge work authority and the Amtrak crew blew it. Within a CTC interlocking, while possible that the Amtrak just blew through the work zone without permission of worker in charge, it seems, at least to me, that the DS in charge of said interlocking would have to have had the Amtrak in the wrong spot/on the wrong line. With Amtrak being priority on all lines, would not the DS in charge of the interlocking not try to mov the Amtrak to an adjacent line to get around the work zone with as little delay as possible? Or the DS simply forgot the welder crew had that portion blocked.... If they were given permission. And in relation to the humor of the truck being made of a certain style frame..... My apologies. Sometimes humor is hard to pick up on in writing.....
n012944 ricktrains4824 While we do know that the Amtrak train struck a company vehicle, what we do not know is which one was where it should not have been... Either the BNSF welder crew was not supposed to be that close, or the DS had the Amtrak train in the wrong spot. Or the welder had a Form B/707/whatever the BNSF calls an employee in charge work authority and the Amtrak crew blew it.
ricktrains4824 While we do know that the Amtrak train struck a company vehicle, what we do not know is which one was where it should not have been... Either the BNSF welder crew was not supposed to be that close, or the DS had the Amtrak train in the wrong spot.
While we do know that the Amtrak train struck a company vehicle, what we do not know is which one was where it should not have been... Either the BNSF welder crew was not supposed to be that close, or the DS had the Amtrak train in the wrong spot.
Or the welder had a Form B/707/whatever the BNSF calls an employee in charge work authority and the Amtrak crew blew it.
Within a CTC interlocking, while possible that the Amtrak just blew through the work zone without permission of worker in charge, it seems, at least to me, that the DS in charge of said interlocking would have to have had the Amtrak in the wrong spot/on the wrong line. With Amtrak being priority on all lines, would not the DS in charge of the interlocking not try to mov the Amtrak to an adjacent line to get around the work zone with as little delay as possible?
Or the DS simply forgot the welder crew had that portion blocked.... If they were given permission.
And in relation to the humor of the truck being made of a certain style frame..... My apologies. Sometimes humor is hard to pick up on in writing.....
On my carrier, it is cusomary for Work Authorities to be in effect on all tracks within the working limits. Trains must STOP at the entering limit IF they have not received permission to pass through the limits from the employee in charge of the work area.
Dispatchers line routes through the work area, unless the employee in charge specifically asks for track blocking on specific track(s). It doesn't matter if the work area is within interlocking limits or not. When the employee in charge asks for track blocking, the dispatcher initiates the appropriate blocking software in the CADS system and he will not be able to line signals to the track(s) that have been blocked until software is initiated to release the blocking. Any Dispatcher that does not apply appropriate blocking in such instances is a fool and deserves to be a former dispatcher.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
jeffhergert On the UP, MOW/Signal can get a "Foul Time Permit" that just covers the control point within CTC or at a manual interlocking. Does BNSF use them too? Jeff
On the UP, MOW/Signal can get a "Foul Time Permit" that just covers the control point within CTC or at a manual interlocking. Does BNSF use them too?
Jeff
In old Santa Fe parlance, you'd be asking for time in the "detector section" in the CTC plant. It's been a long time since I've heard that request on BNSF in the places I've been.
An "expensive model collector"
Injured in or out of truck ? If out running toward train or away beyond truck so debri can hit them ?
ricktrains4824 And, I seriously doubt that the truck survived this incident, as, unlike the videos posted, this was not a controlled test, done under perfect conditions, designed to prevent damage to either car/truck or train....
We were just being playful, with a touch of black humor. ANY impact of a train and truck above a very small number of mph is going to result in significant damage to the truck, almost without regard to how the truck may be economically constructed -- if there were injuries reported, I'd expect the truck to look like the steel pretzel that usually results from that kind of incident. Not that that matters as much as the crew's recovery...
Until it is known if the welder crew had track and time or not, we simply do not know who was in the wrong place, the welder crew or the Amtrak train.
So, my judgement is reserved until then....
And, I seriously doubt that the truck survived this incident, as, unlike the videos posted, this was not a controlled test, done under perfect conditions, designed to prevent damage to either car/truck or train......
[quote user="Victrola1]Was it a box girder framed Chevrolet?
Go to 6:30 in this video to see why the question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR-FYCQFV4k
[/quote]
Awww... that's nuttin', look at what a Chevy TRUCK is supposed to do...
A bit more seriously... Ford in the early 1970s had an ad in which they successfully pulled several boxcars, larger than the ones in the Handy video but probably with roller bearings. Both these are much more impressive looking than they actually are; figure out what the resistance of those three boxcars is, even with the coupling shock (note how quickly the third car accelerates when it's bumped). That's well within the strength of the longitudinal members of the frame, and of course the thing is carefully arranged so there is no rack stress or excessive force concentration where it 'shouldn't be'.
Now set that '38 Chevy up catercorner and have the switcher hit it 'point to point' at, say, 5 mph or so, and see what the frame does... that's a bit better guide to what happened in the reported clearance accident, isn't it? ...
(And in the Ford example, you'd run out of rear-wheel traction, already a sketchy thing to assure in a '70s wagon, long before you stressed the frame pulling on a lead coupler knuckle... or ran out of available horsepower from a 400M, or even stalled a stock C6... )
Minimum 8.5 feet from center of track, preferably in excess of 10 feet from center or more. In BNSF's GCOR world, fouling is "within 4 feet of the nearest rail of a track". Rule 6.28 says you can't foul the CTC main without track and time. Period. Clearly the train hit something too close. The question remains how did the welders get inside the foul zone - Operating, M/W or engineer-wise. Judgement error or something else?
How did the BNSF truck fare?
Was it a box girder framed Chevrolet?
Euclid How close to the fouling point would it be acceptable to park the truck when a train was expected to pass?
About four feet from the field side of the rail as an absolute minumum. Further is much nicer, and keeps the blood pressure of the train crews down.
While the welders should have known how far out they needed to park so they didn't foul, I half wonder if they didn't just park too close to the tracks.
Certainly a bone-headed error, but if they didn't expect to foul with the vehicle, and didn't need to access the tracks for any lengthy work, they might not have felt the need for paper.
But, we won't know 'til the reports come out.
mudchicken Jeff: The lookout with the imprinted yellow teddyvest cannot join in the work, he is the EIC under visual rules and his word while fouling the main is absolute. A major part of what me and my people do is under visual rules, the only time we go to track warrants or track & time is in interlockers, in noisy or restricted sight conditions or when the traffic density is just nuts. (we don't foul with vehicles or equipment, it's just us on foot.)
Jeff: The lookout with the imprinted yellow teddyvest cannot join in the work, he is the EIC under visual rules and his word while fouling the main is absolute. A major part of what me and my people do is under visual rules, the only time we go to track warrants or track & time is in interlockers, in noisy or restricted sight conditions or when the traffic density is just nuts. (we don't foul with vehicles or equipment, it's just us on foot.)
One time I watched two guys doing some work on a yard track. One was the Look Out, with vest, and the other was doing the work. They would change off every so often, complete with trading the vest.
(1) We wait to see what FRA and BNSF investigation outcome is.
(2) Because this is an interlocking and most likely track and time in CTC limits is involved, there is a chain of decisions that need to be looked at. Starting at the communication between the welder and the DS, was the right time and fouling limits communicated. This was an after hours issue which means that somebody called the welders out most likely.
(3) 214(c) rules are drilled into everybody. Fortunately all involved are with us and re-construction of the chain of events can probably happen. The job briefing standard forms will speak volumes.
Having seen the aftermath of several such incidents (including fatals), no two ever have managed to work out the same exact way.
*** If the defect the welder was fixing was that bad or condemnable, the welder had the right (and obligation) to take the track out of service (over-ruling the DS and the operating department which would howl, but so be it. FRA would take the welder's side.) So much we don't know here on an incident type that no longer is as common as it used to be..
One quick update... This incident happened at the Lisle interlocker (CP25). No updates regarding the condition of the two BNSF employees who were injured.
CC
ALL:
Let's all wait for more information to come forth before making assumptions.
I worked in the Engineering and Operating Departments.
Ed Burns
csmith9474Yeah, stories like this keep me on my toes when we're working trackside. We always have track protection if we're gonna foul, but stuff happens. As a safety captain, I do like seeing this sort of info posted here. I like to brief the gang on these sorts of stories during job briefings.
I don't know about BNSF, but I've seen welders (depending on what they were doing) and other MOW do some work with only a Look-Out for protection. No main track authorization such as a track permit or track and time, etc. Just one member of the gang designated to watch for traffic. The vest even says, "Look Out" on it.
And naturally, of all of the trains that could have hit the truck, it had to be Amtrak!
n012944 Good to see your war on railroad employees is still going on.
It's known as irony.
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