Trains.com

Somebody's in very deep do-do

5095 views
40 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Somebody's in very deep do-do
Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:55 PM

Thankfully there is no mention of anyone getting hurt.

But somebody is going to have trouble explaining this one.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-amtrak-train-crash-metra-trains-delayed-20160116-story.html

 

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: near Chicago
  • 937 posts
Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:25 PM

Thanks for posting! Right now, details are a bit sketchy.

  • Amtrak train #383 is the Illinois Zephyr to Galesburg and Quincy. It left Chicago @5:55 pm and was traveling west on the BNSF Chicago Subdivision. It had made its first stop at La Grange and was headed towards its second stop at Naperville when it hit the BNSF welding truck near the Belmont station around 6:25 pm.
  • According to news reports the BNSF truck was parked too close to main track #1 when it was struck. Two BNSF employess were injured when they possibly attempted to move the truck right before it was hit.
  • It's unknown right now what track and time permits the welders had.

As they say... more details to follow.

CC

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Sunday, January 17, 2016 12:15 PM

Darwin?

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Kenosha, WI
  • 6,567 posts
Posted by zardoz on Sunday, January 17, 2016 2:01 PM

schlimm

Darwin?

 

That wasn't very nice.

How about we wait for some facts about who was in the wrong before we cast aspersions.

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: US
  • 13,488 posts
Posted by Mookie on Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:15 PM

It is mishaps like this that make our resident mudchicken lose feathers!  

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: MP CF161.6 NS's New Castle District in NE Indiana
  • 2,148 posts
Posted by rrnut282 on Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:17 PM

Darwin is out.  No-one was removed from the gene pool.

Mike (2-8-2)
  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 2,505 posts
Posted by caldreamer on Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:40 PM

I would love to be the fly on the wall when those welders have to explain why there truck was parked too close to the tracks to their boss tomorrow monring.

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:50 PM

Well, we had a saying in the Marines that "There's always some poor SOB who doesn't get the word."  Wouldn't surprise me if that's the situation here.

"Yeah, it's OK to park the truck there, ain't supposed to be no trains comin' on that track."

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:51 PM

zardoz

 

 
schlimm

Darwin?

 

 

 

That wasn't very nice.

 

How about we wait for some facts about who was in the wrong before we cast aspersions.

 

Well excuse me (for the snarky remark), but for years these forums have had posters gloating about the stupidity of drivers and pedestrians involved in crossing accidents without waiting for "some facts." 

BNSF employess parked a company vehicle too close to active tracks. Employees, far more than the general public, should know better.   I am glad if their injuries are minor.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Antioch, IL
  • 4,371 posts
Posted by greyhounds on Sunday, January 17, 2016 4:15 PM

Firelock76
Well, we had a saying in the Marines that "There's always some poor SOB who doesn't get the word."  Wouldn't surprise me if that's the situation here. "Yeah, it's OK to park the truck there, ain't supposed to be no trains comin' on that track."

Well, we had a saying in the Army Transportation Corps:  "Expect movement on any track, in any direction, at any time."

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Colorado Springs, CO
  • 3,590 posts
Posted by csmith9474 on Sunday, January 17, 2016 4:17 PM
Yeah, stories like this keep me on my toes when we're working trackside. We always have track protection if we're gonna foul, but stuff happens. As a safety captain, I do like seeing this sort of info posted here. I like to brief the gang on these sorts of stories during job briefings.
Smitty
  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: The 17th hole at TPC
  • 2,283 posts
Posted by n012944 on Sunday, January 17, 2016 5:58 PM

schlimm

 

 
zardoz

 

 
schlimm

Darwin?

 

 

 

That wasn't very nice.

 

How about we wait for some facts about who was in the wrong before we cast aspersions.

 

 

 

Well excuse me (for the snarky remark), but for years these forums have had posters gloating about the stupidity of drivers and pedestrians involved in crossing accidents without waiting for "some facts." 

BNSF employess parked a company vehicle too close to active tracks. Employees, far more than the general public, should know better.   I am glad if their injuries are minor.

 

 

Good to see your war on railroad employees is still going on.

An "expensive model collector"

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Sunday, January 17, 2016 6:48 PM

n012944
  Good to see your war on railroad employees is still going on.

It's known as irony.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Sunday, January 17, 2016 7:49 PM

And naturally, of all of the trains that could have hit the truck, it had to be Amtrak!

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Colorado Springs, CO
  • 3,590 posts
Posted by csmith9474 on Sunday, January 17, 2016 8:00 PM
I was rear ended by someone not too long ago in a company truck. That was enough of an ordeal with all the reports and calls. I don't even like to think about all the stuff you have to deal with on something like the above story.
Smitty
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,901 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Sunday, January 17, 2016 9:45 PM

csmith9474
Yeah, stories like this keep me on my toes when we're working trackside. We always have track protection if we're gonna foul, but stuff happens. As a safety captain, I do like seeing this sort of info posted here. I like to brief the gang on these sorts of stories during job briefings.
 

I don't know about BNSF, but I've seen welders (depending on what they were doing) and other MOW do some work with only a Look-Out for protection.  No main track authorization such as a track permit or track and time, etc.  Just one member of the gang designated to watch for traffic.  The vest even says, "Look Out" on it.

Jeff 

  • Member since
    June 2011
  • 1,002 posts
Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, January 18, 2016 9:25 AM

ALL:

Let's all wait for more information to come forth before making assumptions.

I worked in the Engineering and Operating Departments.

Ed Burns

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: near Chicago
  • 937 posts
Posted by Chris30 on Monday, January 18, 2016 9:39 AM

One quick update... This incident happened at the Lisle interlocker (CP25). No updates regarding the condition of the two BNSF employees who were injured.

CC

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Monday, January 18, 2016 11:07 AM

(1) We wait to see what FRA and BNSF investigation outcome is.

(2) Because this is an interlocking and most likely track and time in CTC limits is involved, there is a chain of decisions that need to be looked at. Starting at the communication between the welder and the DS, was the right time and fouling limits communicated. This was an after hours issue which means that somebody called the welders out most likely.

(3) 214(c) rules are drilled into everybody. Fortunately all involved are with us and re-construction of the chain of events can probably happen. The job briefing standard forms will speak volumes.

Having seen the aftermath of several such incidents (including fatals), no two ever have managed to work out the same exact way.

Jeff: The lookout with the imprinted yellow teddyvest cannot join in the work, he is the EIC under visual rules and his word while fouling the main is absolute. A major part of what me and my people do is under visual rules, the only time we go to track warrants or track & time is in interlockers, in noisy or restricted sight conditions or when the traffic density is just nuts. (we don't foul with vehicles or equipment, it's just us on foot.)

*** If the defect the welder was fixing was that bad or condemnable, the welder had the right (and obligation) to take the track out of service (over-ruling the DS and the operating department which would howl, but so be it. FRA would take the welder's side.) So much we don't know here on an incident type that no longer is as common as it used to be..

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,901 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, January 18, 2016 12:46 PM

mudchicken

Jeff: The lookout with the imprinted yellow teddyvest cannot join in the work, he is the EIC under visual rules and his word while fouling the main is absolute. A major part of what me and my people do is under visual rules, the only time we go to track warrants or track & time is in interlockers, in noisy or restricted sight conditions or when the traffic density is just nuts. (we don't foul with vehicles or equipment, it's just us on foot.)

 

 

One time I watched two guys doing some work on a yard track.  One was the Look Out, with vest, and the other was doing the work.  They would change off every so often, complete with trading the vest.

Jeff 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Colorado Springs, CO
  • 3,590 posts
Posted by csmith9474 on Monday, January 18, 2016 5:42 PM
Yeah, I was going to respond in a very similar manner as mudchicken. If we are going to be fouling with vehicles or equipment, we are going to get time. Not knowing the exact details of what occurred, I would not even want to try to speculate. Too many things at play in a situation like that. I'm just happy to hear that nobody was killed.
Smitty
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,022 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 18, 2016 6:46 PM

While the welders should have known how far out they needed to park so they didn't foul, I half wonder if they didn't just park too close to the tracks.

Certainly a bone-headed error, but if they didn't expect to foul with the vehicle, and didn't need to access the tracks for any lengthy work, they might not have felt the need for paper.

But, we won't know 'til the reports come out.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
How close to the fouling point would it be acceptable to park the truck when a train was expected to pass?
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,022 posts
Posted by tree68 on Monday, January 18, 2016 8:59 PM

Euclid
How close to the fouling point would it be acceptable to park the truck when a train was expected to pass? 

About four feet from the field side of the rail as an absolute minumum.  Further is much nicer, and keeps the blood pressure of the train crews down.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Posted by Victrola1 on Monday, January 18, 2016 9:16 PM

How did the BNSF truck fare? 

Was it a box girder framed Chevrolet? 

Go to 6:30 in this video to see why the question. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR-FYCQFV4k

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Monday, January 18, 2016 9:43 PM

Minimum 8.5 feet from center of track, preferably in excess of 10 feet from center or more.   In BNSF's GCOR world, fouling is "within 4 feet of the nearest rail of a track". Rule 6.28 says you can't foul the CTC main without track and time. Period. Clearly the train hit something too close. The question remains how did the welders get inside the foul zone - Operating, M/W or engineer-wise. Judgement error or something else?

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,644 posts
Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:44 AM

[quote user="Victrola1]Was it a box girder framed Chevrolet? 

Go to 6:30 in this video to see why the question. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR-FYCQFV4k

[/quote]

Awww... that's nuttin', look at what a Chevy TRUCK is supposed to do...

A bit more seriously... Ford in the early 1970s had an ad in which they successfully pulled several boxcars, larger than the ones in the Handy video but probably with roller bearings.  Both these are much more impressive looking than they actually are; figure out what the resistance of those three boxcars is, even with the coupling shock (note how quickly the third car accelerates when it's bumped).  That's well within the strength of the longitudinal members of the frame, and of course the thing is carefully arranged so there is no rack stress or excessive force concentration where it 'shouldn't be'.

Now set that  '38 Chevy up catercorner and have the switcher hit it 'point to point' at, say, 5 mph or so, and see what the frame does... that's a bit better guide to what happened in the reported clearance accident, isn't it? ...

(And in the Ford example, you'd run out of rear-wheel traction, already a sketchy thing to assure in a '70s wagon, long before you stressed the frame pulling on a lead coupler knuckle... or ran out of available horsepower from a 400M, or even stalled a stock C6... )

  • Member since
    November 2006
  • From: NW Pa Snow-belt.
  • 2,216 posts
Posted by ricktrains4824 on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:11 AM

While we do know that the Amtrak train struck a company vehicle, what we do not know is which one was where it should not have been... Either the BNSF welder crew was not supposed to be that close, or the DS had the Amtrak train in the wrong spot.

Until it is known if the welder crew had track and time or not, we simply do not know who was in the wrong place, the welder crew or the Amtrak train.

So, my judgement is reserved until then....

And, I seriously doubt that the truck survived this incident, as, unlike the videos posted, this was not a controlled test, done under perfect conditions, designed to prevent damage to either car/truck or train......

Ricky W.

HO scale Proto-freelancer.

My Railroad rules:

1: It's my railroad, my rules.

2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.

3: Any objections, consult above rules.

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,644 posts
Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:34 PM

ricktrains4824
And, I seriously doubt that the truck survived this incident, as, unlike the videos posted, this was not a controlled test, done under perfect conditions, designed to prevent damage to either car/truck or train....

We were just being playful, with a touch of black humor.  ANY impact of a train and truck above a very small number of mph is going to result in significant damage to the truck, almost without regard to how the truck may be economically constructed -- if there were injuries reported, I'd expect the truck to look like the steel pretzel that usually results from that kind of incident.  Not that that matters as much as the crew's recovery...

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, January 20, 2016 2:04 PM

Injured in or out of truck ?  If out running toward train or away beyond truck so debri can hit them  ?

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy