Trains.com

Canadian Pacific Norfolk Southern Merger

42290 views
557 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 1,486 posts
Canadian Pacific Norfolk Southern Merger
Posted by Victrola1 on Monday, November 9, 2015 2:20 PM

Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd., the second-biggest railroad in Canada, is exploring a takeover of U.S. carrier Norfolk Southern Corp. in a fresh attempt to consolidate the North American industry, according to people familiar with the matter.  

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-09/canadian-pacific-said-to-explore-takeover-of-norfolk-southern

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, November 9, 2015 2:48 PM

cnbc really goofed up read short article and tell me what United Pacific railroad is.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/09/norfolk-southern-canadian-pacific-shares-jump-amid-deal-report.html

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, November 9, 2015 3:04 PM

Can't you read?  Both articles are clear, but CNBC either typoed or erroniously put 'United' for 'Union', obviously.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, November 9, 2015 3:33 PM

blue streak 1

cnbc really goofed up read short article and tell me what United Pacific railroad is.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/09/norfolk-southern-canadian-pacific-shares-jump-amid-deal-report.html

 

 

 

What else do you expect from the person writing about railraods?

Johnny

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Southeast Michigan
  • 2,983 posts
Posted by Norm48327 on Monday, November 9, 2015 3:58 PM

schlimm
Can't you read? Both articles are clear, but CNBC either typoed or erroniously put 'United' for 'Union', obviously.

So is mud somedays. Wink There are time we have to wonder what they really meant. It's pervasive in the media to use wrong words. One local TV station's web site constantly says "Person killed after house fire." Oh! Did they drag him out and shoot him? Their command of the English Language leaves something to be desired. [That from a guy who is NOT an English major.]

Norm


  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Monday, November 9, 2015 4:50 PM

Well, let's get to the really important stuff - hopefully 611 can run on Buckingham Branch.

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Mobile Alabama
  • 694 posts
Posted by carknocker1 on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:03 PM
If it happens I hope they don't screw up the NS . They are so well run and classy I would hate to see it fall apart . I am not real familiar with the CP .
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:05 PM

Norm48327

 

 
schlimm
Can't you read? Both articles are clear, but CNBC either typoed or erroniously put 'United' for 'Union', obviously.

 

So is mud somedays. Wink There are time we have to wonder what they really meant. It's pervasive in the media to use wrong words. One local TV station's web site constantly says "Person killed after house fire." Oh! Did they drag him out and shoot him? Their command of the English Language leaves something to be desired. [That from a guy who is NOT an English major.]

 

Oh come on, Norm.   The reason Streak said that was not because he cannot read or lacks the minimal familiarity with the subject to mentally correct the typo or whatever error.  He posted that because in some quarters it is de rigueur to poke (fun or in the eye?) the hated media.  Had it been in Fox, I wonder if he would?

Try reading papers of otherwise good students, who often say, someone "defiantly" chose X when they mean "definitely" of course.  Even worse is to have to repeatedly see "the dinning car" or "the dinner" instead of Dining and Diner from posters on here and not say anything.  We can assume they are not complaining of excessive noise levels.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:12 PM

Last I heard, not going to happen.

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: East Coast
  • 1,199 posts
Posted by D.Carleton on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:13 PM

It's certainly doable but CP better bring lots and lots and lots of cash, eh?

Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:16 PM

Maybe the merger is good, maybe not, but it seems sad to have the NS  (and all its predecessor lines) taken over by a foreign railroad.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    September 2014
  • 1,180 posts
Posted by ROBERT WILLISON on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:27 PM

Is cp still run by hunter Harrison? If so he shut down cp steam program in 2013 and was then very critical of ns program.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:37 PM

ROBERT WILLISON

Is cp still run by hunter Harrison? If so he shut down cp steam program in 2013 and was then very critical of ns program.

Hunter is on his last legs age wise and won't be in the job of CEO much longer hence I think he wants his legacy to be the guy that finished the transnational railroad merger wave which started back when KCS and UP bid over Mexico's railways.

As for the choice.   I think NS is a much stronger partner for CP than CSX would have been.   CSX would be a better pairing for BNSF or UP.     I don't think UP is even interested in a another merger with it's Mexican holdings.     So the question is will BNSF attempt a purchase of CSX?    CSX keeps repurchasing it's stock trying to get the valuation up for some reason........so maybe CSX is not interested in a merger with a Western railway?

Maybe after this merger wave some visionary will finally connect the Alaska railroad with the rest of the continent and possibly extend the standard gauge systems Southward through Guatamala into South America???

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Minneapolis, MN
  • 9 posts
Posted by PaulN2719 on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:44 PM

As far as I am concerned, CP has totally screwed up the Soo Line and especially the DM&E.  The only way this works is if NS people are in charge.  But if EHH is in charge, heaven help us.

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: Brooklyn Center, MN.
  • 702 posts
Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Monday, November 9, 2015 5:45 PM

I, too, think NS would be a much better choice as opposed to CSXT.  At the same time, however, I have a feeling that this is all merely a sideshow without substance; hiding the "real" talks that are going on.

"Beating 'SC is not a matter of life or death. It's more important than that." Former UCLA Head Football Coach Red Sanders
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,819 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Monday, November 9, 2015 6:22 PM

I'll believe it when I hear someone from CP or NS  announce it. "Unidentified sources" sounds too much like the custodian at CP HQ may have overheard somethng and whispered it to a rookie reporter..  

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: The 17th hole at TPC
  • 2,283 posts
Posted by n012944 on Monday, November 9, 2015 7:08 PM

ChessieCat123

Control of a major piece of national infrastucture by a foreign corperation that is essentional to our national defence does not sit well with many people.

 

 

And the old IC, GTW and Soo are not "essentional to our national defense"?  A ridiculous argument.

An "expensive model collector"

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 399 posts
Posted by seppburgh2 on Monday, November 9, 2015 7:35 PM

So, is this going to move a deal where NS shops around for a better deal, such as with UP or BNSF?  What of CSX?  Will they then cry "woo is me, I need a buy-out too!" and go looking to BNSF and UP for an offer?  Where the market matures and there is only big fish with cash, the next thing is to buy your way into ever bigger markets"  Economics 101.

  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 1,751 posts
Posted by dakotafred on Monday, November 9, 2015 8:12 PM

I wonder where MILW gets his info that Hunter Harrison is "on his last legs age-wise and won't be in the job of CEO much longer."

CP hired Harrison a couple of years after CN had aged him out. There's a message in there. When Harrison retires, I suspect it will be on his schedule. I doubt the board will be in a hurry, given what he's accomplished for the company.

As for mergers, I think CP's destiny continues to be KCS. KCS is not as expensive as it used to be -- shares $90 vs. $80 for NS (altho I can't tell you how many shares of either are out there) -- and, in my opinion, gives CP so much more in the way of growth potential than NS.

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Monday, November 9, 2015 8:14 PM

Firelock76

Last I heard, not going to happen.

 

In the Naval Services this is referred to as The Scuttlebutt Stage"   You have a media that reports[ tends to 'create news'] from what amounts to  hearsay. IMHO.  I think we need to cool it asnd wait for the News releases from NSC 'official sources' or from CPR. Then wait til they start fielding Office Car Trains on each others property...Then you may [possibly see some action on the combination of both roads...

Remember The Sothern Pacific/Santa Fe marriage?  It was such a 'done deal' in 1983 they were already painting equipment [Kodachrome scheme] to reflect the 'new' company..

   Then The ICC, and Justice Dept's steped in, and it was C. Interruptus for their 'done Deal'....In 1988 the Rio Grande (DRG&W) was the successful bidder at about $1B plus for the remaions of SP. and its Corporate debt.  In 1995 Santa Fe merged with BN to become Burlington Northern & Santa Fe, and later BNSF..  The following year UPRR bought SP. ( At least, I think, that is the way I remember it all)   Whistling

 

 

 

 


 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Vicksburg, Michigan
  • 2,303 posts
Posted by Andrew Falconer on Monday, November 9, 2015 8:52 PM

The only way this would happen is if a new Board of Directors were hired for the NS Corp, then they approved the merger.

 

Andrew

Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Monday, November 9, 2015 8:58 PM

If this transaction gets the high ball, ultimately we may see both NS and CSX carved up between the two Canadian roads and the two Western roads in the manner that Conrail was divided between NS and CSX.

  • Member since
    June 2015
  • 26 posts
Posted by Jim611 on Monday, November 9, 2015 9:21 PM

I believe it is a rumor to create a diversion from the bad press Bill Ackman of Hedge Fund Pershing Square is taking from his big loss in Valeant Pharmaceuticals for overpricing drugs etc.  I would be suprised if it goes any further in the near future.

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 2,505 posts
Posted by caldreamer on Monday, November 9, 2015 9:34 PM

It will NEVER happen.  The STB will NOT allow two Class 1 railroads to merge.  It would diminish competition.  Then there is the Anit-Trust division of the Justice Department.

If this happens bring me a super size plate of humble pie!!!

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • From: Brooklyn Center, MN.
  • 702 posts
Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Monday, November 9, 2015 9:51 PM

dakotafred

As for mergers, I think CP's destiny continues to be KCS. KCS is not as expensive as it used to be -- shares $90 vs. $80 for NS (altho I can't tell you how many shares of either are out there) -- and, in my opinion, gives CP so much more in the way of growth potential than NS.

 

CPRS + KCS makes the most sense.  All this other stuff is nothing more than a smokescreen.  No WAY BNSF or UP sit still and let NS get gobbled up like this. 

 

 

"Beating 'SC is not a matter of life or death. It's more important than that." Former UCLA Head Football Coach Red Sanders
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Monday, November 9, 2015 9:52 PM
Who is this Bill Ackman? One of the 9 living CP directors. Linda Morgan R.I.P.
  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 1:07 AM

dakotafred

I wonder where MILW gets his info that Hunter Harrison is "on his last legs age-wise and won't be in the job of CEO much longer."

CP hired Harrison a couple of years after CN had aged him out. There's a message in there. When Harrison retires, I suspect it will be on his schedule. I doubt the board will be in a hurry, given what he's accomplished for the company.

As for mergers, I think CP's destiny continues to be KCS. KCS is not as expensive as it used to be -- shares $90 vs. $80 for NS (altho I can't tell you how many shares of either are out there) -- and, in my opinion, gives CP so much more in the way of growth potential than NS.

I think you need to look at a recent photo of him and come to your own conclusion.    He does not look far from the grave in his recent photo.    Doesn't matter what the board thinks.   The Railroad CEO title does not make you immortal.

  • Member since
    June 2009
  • From: Dallas, TX
  • 6,952 posts
Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 1:09 AM

ChessieCat123
Warren Buffet who wants to add value to the company nor the country as a whole.

I got news for you......Warren is in the game just for the money he could care less about adding value to anything.   He just cares about return on his investment.  He has made the latter statement several times in his past.    Investment return are what his investments are all about.

  • Member since
    October 2014
  • 1,644 posts
Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:42 AM

I think a major driving force in this is the possibility of inversion, similar to what Burger King did in forming New Red.   As noted, operationally other mergers would make better sense, so there has to be a reason the markets bid the NS share price up so high on this news.  It's very probably not because there is widespread enthusiasm that EHH, now 71, will be optimizing the operating ratio after the merger gets through STB approval.  (This especially with Obama and probably his successor in office becoming increasingly incensed over inversions, perhaps?)

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:54 AM

Per the Financial Post and CP's web site, EHH officially came on board in June 2012 with a four year agreement and an option for a fifth, which puts it to June 2017.

Born in 1944 so he would be approaching, or at, age 73 at that time.

Would 19 months from now be sufficient time to get a merger proposal through the STB?

With the flurry of activity that would set off regarding competitive-response moves, it would almost seem too short a time.

Here is one piece of conjecture, for example.

Canada will not let go of its two railroads, ever. And it is hard to see the US allowing complete foreign ownership of the whole Class 1 system.

So it is possible to foresee a result that the two Eastern roads are divided up between the two Canadian roads and the two Western roads. That would result in CN-CP in Canada and BNSF and UP west of Chicago and the Mississippi as they are now, and all four of them having large co-equal slices of the market east of the Mississippi through a combination of line purchases and shared track arrangements for each.

CP-NS would be the catalyst. But four companies would have more capital and financial horsepower to bring to the process. It would seem that something that complex would almost certainly take more than 19 months.

 

 

 

 

 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy