I don't want to look at that due dilligence. All yours, buddy.
(but I would hope certain publications want a standard a bit higher than Cosomo).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
So a higher standard of publication can advertise pecker enlargement products as long as they know or have real evidence that the product works?
Randy Stahl So a higher standard of publication can advertise pecker enlargement products as long as they know or have real evidence that the product works?
No, but I would hope a higher standard of publication wouldn't feel the need to have pecker pills to begin with.
I was thinking along similar lines, although not THAT similar. Would Trains Magazine run ads for synthetic bath salts?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding I was thinking along similar lines, although not THAT similar. Would Trains Magazine run ads for synthetic bath salts?
Dating sites like eharmony would also be in a lot of trouble if each ad had to be verified for complete honesty , and you would see more profiles like "stupid man, 45, unattractive, boring, and humorless, seeks beautiful lady, 20 - 24, for serious relationship"..There's always some hyperbole in advertising or else the ad simply wouldn't generate any interest. That's why it is up to the consumer to beware.. do your research and don't take ads at face value.
So far we've compared a certain publicaton (which I never named) to Cosmo and eHarmony.
Ok...?
May as well add Popular Mechanics to the list, anyone else remember those 100 mpg carburator ads they used to run in almost every issue?
You choose to ignore consumer fraud laws at your own peril. It is not just "buyer beware" cheat, lie, defraud with impunity as you seem to think. I recall well years ago at a large department store in Chicago how we had to be careful what we stated in ads, especially for the Tribune, because they kept track of complaints. Once they received a few about any ads we ran, we knew they would become very vigilant in future.
Your trivializing this matter strikes me as odd. In the case of trade schools, there is a huge and long record of fraudulent, fly-by-night operators with prosecutions. Trains must be aware of that. And under US law, they can be held responsible.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Anyone remember sea monkeys? The advertising showed them playing billiards and sitting in chaise lounges.. not quite the way it really was.....
I would think actual railroaders would think Trains should be more careful about programs for potential rail workers. Zugman is and does. Ulrich is not, he's in trucking., I believe. Randy, you are in railroading. Why ridicule the ethics?
schlimm You choose to ignore consumer fraud laws at your own peril. It is not just "buyer beware" cheat, lie, defraud with impunity as you seem to think. I recall well years ago at a large department store in Chicago how we had to be careful what we stated in ads, especially for the Tribune, because they kept track of complaints. Once they received a few about any ads we ran, we knew they would become very vigilant in future. Your trivializing this matter strikes me as odd. In the case of trade schools, there is a huge and long record of fraudulent, fly-by-night operators with prosecutions. Trains must be aware of that. And under US law, they can be held responsible.
I'm not ignoring consumer fraud laws at my peril.. I have no ads running. And how is advocating "buyer beware" ignoring any laws at my peril? The only peril here is people who take ads at face value by parting with their hard earned dollars without first doing a little bit of investigating. I really don't know if these trade schools you speak of are any good or not.. do you have first hand knowledge that they're crooked?
Randy Stahl Anyone remember sea monkeys? The advertising showed them playing billiards and sitting in chaise lounges.. not quite the way it really was.....
Nope, I remember cigarettes riding on horseback though.
schlimmI would think actual railroaders would think Trains should be more careful about programs for potential rail workers.
I'm far from an actual railroader, but I support schlimm's position here for a somewhat ironic reason. If we think back to one of the Amtrak 188 wreck controversies, an individual ranked as one of the principal 'culprits' in providing for-pay railroad "training" got into some trouble accusing the engineer/shooting his mouth off. This individual had become featured in media reports as an 'expert' -- probably because when media newsworkers wanted to find an impartial 'expert' outside the railroads, they looked for academics skilled in railroading ... and where better to look than the head of a 'railroad training academy' or whatever.
Knowing as we do that real railroads have little if any respect for 'graduates' of these types of places, why would we let them advertise in a way that would make readers of a respected magazine (containing other ads specifically directed at railroads and railroaders!) think that their training is meaningful to getting hired on ... or learning to stay on ... at railroads other than museum or tourist lines? That's not to say Trains shouldn't let them advertise, only that there should be the analogue of a cancer warning in there that says something like 'regardless of what these people say, their training won't get you hired and if that's why you want to spend money you're likely to be wasting it'.
I won't argue with people who say 'caveat emptor' -- as long as there is an understanding going in that no matter how attractively worded (or deceitfully phrased) an ad may be, the consequences for prospective students are laid out for their understanding in a form they can understand, before any actual cash for 'services' will have changed hands... and that's not just the fine print in the contract disclaimers that probably doesn't get read.
Have any of the magazines ever done in-depth articles on these training schools?
zugmann Have any of the magazines ever done in-depth articles on these training schools?
That would be a good idea..
schlimm I would think actual railroaders would think Trains should be more careful about programs for potential rail workers. Zugman is and does. Ulrich is not, he's in trucking., I believe. Randy, you are in railroading. Why ridicule the ethics?
I'm sorry Shlimm. I don't mean to come off as ridiculing but I have to wonder why the original poster waited until AFTER he spent the money to post on here. The bottom line is that this very forum could have prevented this person from wasting money or least lowered his expectations.
It was mentioned before that railroads don't usually hire from these programs regardless of the school, perhaps if he had known that...
Researching BEFORE you spend is the best way to avoid being ripped off, why did this OP wait until it was too late?
That said, perhaps a class like the one that has been described and advertised would be useful for writers, reporters, volunteer railroaders or any other curious people that have no intention of landing a railroad job, I can see how that could be useful for someone that wants the skills quickly for whatever reason.
Even though the railroads won't hire you on the merits of the class, having the introduction in these classes might benefit you anyhow.
Randy
Wow. I don't even know where to begin. When you hire on with my railroad, you get some classroom training, some fieldwork training, then you become a condcutor trainee. All paid, too. As in the money goes INTO your wallet; not the other way around. And you are putting way too much emphasis on structure.
If you think that a week-long fantasy camp style training program is any match for real on the job training, well, I feel sorry for you.
As far as your last paragraph. Pure bull. He was using those statements to prop up his RR academy. So yeah, it had a lot to do with the acadamey.
Euclid I am not convinced that paid railroad training is as discredited as so many people are saying it is. I am not sure how this works today, but let me ask how one becomes a switchman, for example. For a long time, the tradition was that the person is hired and then makes 3-5 “student trips.” With these, the new hire goes along with a crew on a shift as an unpaid member. All of the training accomplished was strictly up to the whim of the crew members. Certainly there was no structured content, no homework, and no testing. After the student trips, the new employee went to work as a paid crew member. I would think that a concentrated one-week course from a training institution could impart at least ten times as much training as the student trips did. As to the fiasco over Trains running ads for MODOC Railroad Academy, that was related to Modoc CEO Dave Rangel speaking disparagingly of the Amtrak engineer in the crash last spring. It had nothing to do with the training quality of MODOC.
I don't think anyone would suggest that the one week course is comprehensive all inclusive training that results in a fully trained conductor/engineer. At best these courses offer the student one step up the ladder to the next level. It's like truck driver training.. the average course is 28 hours of practical instruction, but no one would expect a new graduate to be able to blind side back a set of pups in NYC. At best graduation gives the student the opportunity to move on to the next level of learning.
Ulrich zugmann Have any of the magazines ever done in-depth articles on these training schools? That would be a good idea..
I can't speak for Chicago Tribune but I used to work for Verizon Yellowpages a while back. This is not as strict as you might presume. As long as the advertiser has a disclaimer stating that they take advertising "as is" with no guarantee as to it's veracity.........typically they are free and clear legally. The liability is really with the school itself.
Now if a second party approaches the publisher and says "hey the claims made by this advertiser or bogus or fradulent and that second party has a lawyer" Typically the publisher has two courses of action. They can remove the advertisement and notify the original advertiser as to why (few do this) OR they can tell the second party with the lawyer they need to take it up with the advertiser and then the advertiser needs to contact us the publisher to remove the ad (most publishers take this approach).
There isn't any consumer fraud laws that hold the publisher accountable that I ever heard of unless the publisher and the advertiser are the same or in direct collusion.
So count me among the bewildered posters here that can't understand why your beating up on Trains Magazine for an area that they really are not responsible for........."veracity of advertisers claims". There is no way with the volume of advertisements they handle that they can investigate everyone to a level to ensure there is no fraud with each advertisement they accept.
EuclidI would think that a concentrated one-week course from a training institution could impart at least ten times as much training as the student trips did.
No question that it could; I think it likely in the specific case of MODOC that it does in many respects. The point I'm making, however, is a bit different: paying the money doesn't get you any advantage in hiring, or exemption from what a railroad requires you to go through in training, and my guess is that it's a rare individual who wants to learn the 'academic' version of Being A Compleat Railroader for $$$ in advance of learning what their railroad specifically emphasizes and doesn't emphasize. This before we get into the problems with a student having a 'know-it-already' attitude from having Been To School, or worse, arguing with their instructor even if they are 'right'. Or perhaps worst, zoning out during safety training because they've 'heard it before', and not getting the right safety reflexes for dangerous emergent situations...
BTW, you can get both Railroad Conductor and Locomotive Engineer training for free in exchange for 6 year enlistment in the Army Reserve. I am not sure it results in FRA certificatsions and the railroad industry might ask you to suppliment the training but it is actually pretty comprehensive training conducted at Ft Eustis, VA. The USAR railway Battalion in Milwaukee works sometimes with CP Rail shops and sometimes employees.....no idea where it is located in Milwaukee, just heard it through the grapevine a while back.
The other USAR railway Battalion is in the Carolinas somewhere and I presume they work with NS or CSX.
zugmannIf you think that a week-long fantasy camp style training program is any match for real on the job training, well, I feel sorry for you.
CMStPnP BTW, you can get both Railroad Conductor and Locomotive Engineer training for free in exchange for 6 year enlistment in the Army Reserve. I am not sure it results in FRA certificatsions and the railroad industry might ask you to suppliment the training but it is actually pretty comprehensive training conducted at Ft Eustis, VA. The USAR railway Battalion in Milwaukee works sometimes with CP Rail shops and sometimes employees.....no idea where it is located in Milwaukee, just heard it through the grapevine a while back. The other USAR railway Battalion is in the Carolinas somewhere and I presume they work with NS or CSX.
The 757th RR battalion (Milwaukee) I think has been disbanded.
Ulrich schlimm You choose to ignore consumer fraud laws at your own peril. It is not just "buyer beware" cheat, lie, defraud with impunity as you seem to think. I recall well years ago at a large department store in Chicago how we had to be careful what we stated in ads, especially for the Tribune, because they kept track of complaints. Once they received a few about any ads we ran, we knew they would become very vigilant in future. Your trivializing this matter strikes me as odd. In the case of trade schools, there is a huge and long record of fraudulent, fly-by-night operators with prosecutions. Trains must be aware of that. And under US law, they can be held responsible. I'm not ignoring consumer fraud laws at my peril.. I have no ads running. And how is advocating "buyer beware" ignoring any laws at my peril? The only peril here is people who take ads at face value by parting with their hard earned dollars without first doing a little bit of investigating. I really don't know if these trade schools you speak of are any good or not.. do you have first hand knowledge that they're crooked?
You know, it is foolish to attempt to reason with someone who refuses to read thoroughly what I wrote. You can go back and see in an earlier post which federal law applies to truth in advertising and the application of that in case law to a media outlet. But you made up your mind on that earlier. I also posted just a few articles that deal with the massive levels of fraud with trade schools for ~20 years. Google more; it's easy. Some may offer railroad training, some not. I had several former students tell me first-hand experiences which were very negative. I have also met or gotten to know several railroaders and none of them were trained by these "schools." I wonder howw many railroaders on here received their training that way?
http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/transportation-and-aviation/railway-operations-crewmember.html
How the FTC attempts to regulate private vocational schools with regard to fraudulent claims in advertising:
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/federal_register_notices/2013/11/131118vocationalschools.pdf
And here is an informative commentary by a lawyer:
"You may be wondering how entities aside from the advertiser can protect themselves from this kind of liability. An indemnification agreement can be one risk limitation strategy, but it will not protect a company from FTC scrutiny. A better approach is to exercise caution with any product claim and to always make a good faith attempt to request and review substantiation materials before you publish, advertise, distribute or sell a particular product. The FTC has indicated that it's better to have made an attempt (even if it's flawed effort) to review substantiation materials than to never have asked for the materials at all. So when it comes to liability for false advertising claims, don't get caught in the seasonal cold: it's best to exercise caution at every stage of ad distribution."
http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/202844/advertising+marketing+branding/The+Scope+Of+Liability+For+False+Advertising+Claims
schlimm Ulrich schlimm You choose to ignore consumer fraud laws at your own peril. It is not just "buyer beware" cheat, lie, defraud with impunity as you seem to think. I recall well years ago at a large department store in Chicago how we had to be careful what we stated in ads, especially for the Tribune, because they kept track of complaints. Once they received a few about any ads we ran, we knew they would become very vigilant in future. Your trivializing this matter strikes me as odd. In the case of trade schools, there is a huge and long record of fraudulent, fly-by-night operators with prosecutions. Trains must be aware of that. And under US law, they can be held responsible. I'm not ignoring consumer fraud laws at my peril.. I have no ads running. And how is advocating "buyer beware" ignoring any laws at my peril? The only peril here is people who take ads at face value by parting with their hard earned dollars without first doing a little bit of investigating. I really don't know if these trade schools you speak of are any good or not.. do you have first hand knowledge that they're crooked? You know, it is foolish to attempt to reason with someone who refuses to read thoroughly what I wrote. You can go back and see in an earlier post which federal law applies to truth in advertising and the application of that in case law to a media outlet. But you made up your mind on that earlier. I also posted just a few articles that deal with the massive levels of fraud with trade schools for ~20 years. Google more; it's easy. Some may offer railroad training, some not. I had several former students tell me first-hand experiences which were very negative. I have also met or gotten to know several railroaders and none of them were trained by these "schools." I wonder howw many railroaders on here received their training that way?
Maybe an article would be a good idea then. Blow it open with some real investigative journalism. Show some numbers.. how many applicants, how many graduates, and how many graduates went on to employment with a railroad.
Sure, that would be great but short of that Trains should ask the prospective advertiser/vocational school for "some numbers.. how many applicants, how many graduates, and how many graduates went on to employment with a railroad" since that is the info th e school is supposedto provide to the FTC and accreditation bodies.
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