In January of this year I paid a large amount of money to take a week long student Conductor training and no job not even a permit or certificate. I will never do this again.
The Class 1's want you to take their training, so outside courses are generally not very useful.
Small railroads may take your training as a base, even if you didn't get any sort of certificate, then train you up to where they want you.
Keep looking.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 The Class 1's want you to take their training, so outside courses are generally not very useful. Small railroads may take your training as a base, even if you didn't get any sort of certificate, then train you up to where they want you. Keep looking.
Though I hear that the Overland Park, KS courses are held in high regard by both UP and BNSF. I believe that is University of Kansas extension there.
Personally, I would rather take a for college credit railroad course so that if it didn't work out I could apply the credits towards another degree. The fly by night courses advertised that have no college affiliation........I would avoid.
Here you go:
http://catalog.jccc.edu/search/?search=Railroad
Oops! Doesn't look like it is affiliated with the University of Kanas. Still some credits might transfer, you need to research before you attend. Training here is supported and sponsored direct by BNSF railway.
It sounds like maybe the OP took his class from some for-profit school. generally speaking, those institutions have a [exuse the pun] poor track record. And clearly a one week class is not going to be acceptable to railroad employers. Better to stick with public schools (voc-techs, CCs and extension programs) that offer such programs.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A week long 'school' doesn't qualify on to set foot on the a Class 1's property, let alone get a job. Sorry for your monetary loss; you have been taken!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Live and learn. It's a damned shame what some of those "schools" are allowed to get away with.
And it's also why I believe certain publications should NOT be associated with them or accept them as advertisers.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Live and learn. It's a damned shame what some of those schools are allowed to get away with. And it's also why I believe certain publications should NOT be associated with them or accept them as advertisers.
Live and learn. It's a damned shame what some of those schools are allowed to get away with.
Exactly! Freedom of the press does not mean taking no responsibility for the honesty of adverts.
schlimm It sounds like maybe the OP took his class from some for-profit school. generally speaking, those institutions have a [exuse the pun] poor track record. And clearly a one week class is not going to be acceptable to railroad employers. Better to stick with public schools (voc-techs, CCs and extension programs) that offer such programs.
Soounds like pretty good advice. Saw a speech on the Senate floor last week by Sen Dick Durbin...Tghe Subject matter was specifically the UNiv of Phoenix and its issues with the Dept of Defense and hjow they had bared it fromrecruiting on US Military Installations. It intimation was that it was not the only "for profit" with questionable recruiting issues surrounding negative student finance issues.. They just happened to be the "subject du jure'. With other 'for profit' institutions to be examioned in the future(?).
This link might be of some following interest @
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-university-of-phoenix-military-20151009-story.html
A publication cannot be held responsibe for the veracity of advertisers' claims. The consumer is responsibe for validating claims prior to purchase...that's how it works. Caveat Emptor.
samfp1943 schlimm It sounds like maybe the OP took his class from some for-profit school. generally speaking, those institutions have a [exuse the pun] poor track record. And clearly a one week class is not going to be acceptable to railroad employers. Better to stick with public schools (voc-techs, CCs and extension programs) that offer such programs. Soounds like pretty good advice. Saw a speech on the Senate floor last week by Sen Dick Durbin...Tghe Subject matter was specifically the UNiv of Phoenix and its issues with the Dept of Defense and hjow they had bared it fromrecruiting on US Military Installations. It intimation was that it was not the only "for profit" with questionable recruiting issues surrounding negative student finance issues.. They just happened to be the "subject du jure'. With other 'for profit' institutions to be examioned in the future(?). This link might be of some following interest @ http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-university-of-phoenix-military-20151009-story.html
My impression from talking with students is that U of Phoenix is actually one of the better ones, which doesn't say much in their favor. The profit motive works great in many fields, but higher education is not one of them.
Ulrich A publication cannot be held responsibe for the veracity of advertisers' claims. The consumer is responsibe for validating claims prior to purchase...that's how it works. Caveat Emptor.
True, it cannot be held liable legally. However, ethically it should vet the honesty of advertisers. That's how it works. Caveat emptor has not been the guiding principle for a long time in the US, but Canada may differ:
"The provisions of the Unfair Trade Practices and Consumer Protection Law shall not apply to any owner, publisher, printer, agent, or employee of a newspaper or other publication, periodical or circular, who, in good faith and without knowledge of the falsity or deceptive character thereof, publishes, causes to be published or takes part in the publication of such advertisement. (73 P.S. §201-3)
If a newspaper has any knowledge of the false or deceptive character of an advertisement and proceeds to publish the advertisement, then it may be held liable under the UTPCPL. However, there is no requirement that a newspaper investigate advertiser's claims if there is no reason to suspect impropriety.
See: Com. by Creamer v. Monumental Properties, Inc., 329 A.2d 812, 459 Pa. 450, 1974, on remand 365 A.2d 442, 26 Pa.Cmwlth. 399."
And the smart business practice of preserving one's good name and reputation would suggest that Trains should be more diligent about accepting trade school advertisements, since those places are widely known for often being essentially diploma/certificate mills.
From a practical standpoint there would be no way for a publication to ascertain the accuracy of every advertiser. To do so would be enormously expensive, often highly subjective, and time consuming. Moreover, an advertisement is not the same thing as an endorsement. It remains the responsibility of the consumer to do his/her research prior to purchase. In this example, our hapless student could have asked for five or six references from previous graduates who had successfully completed the program and then went on to a career with a railroad. The host publication shouldn't be doing that as each reader's criteria may be different... I might need only three student references and a credit reference, you might need eight student references, and someone else might be fine with only one. If you're going to make a significant purchase the onus is on you to investigate the product or service. and if you're not prepared to do that then you suffer the consequences.
Maybe Canadian law and customs arequite different, though I doubt it, and Trains operates under US laws and customs. It is not exacty a secret that many trade schools engage in making false promises of guaranteed jobs after completion of their "programs" and taking large fees. So Trains would not have to investigate all advertisers (an absurd argument); they only need require some proof from the suspicious-looking trade schools in order to accept the ad. Trains is under no obligation to accept those ads. What is so difficult about that?
"some proof" requires some investigation.. and as I stated that investigation would be costly, subjective in and of itself, and time consuming.
An advertisement is an enticement, not a disclosure; moreover, one man's garbage is another's gold. Almost all ads are a one sided depiction, overstating benefits and understating cost and risk. I don't know if our laws are so different from yours. What I do know is that there's a "World's Best Burger" joint in almost every city in North America.. they can't ALL be right. Maybe I'm just different, but I learned a long time ago not to accept ads at face value. Ads are a call to action.. the next step is for the interested consumer to investigate the product or service being offered. Hopefully most of us do that. When you go to Autotrader to buy a car (for example) do you depend on them to tell you that the car you're interested in is reliable, roadworthy, and comfortable? Of course not, you set up an appointment to take it out for a test drive and then you have it checked out by a mechanic.. Autotrader won't and simply can't verify the veracity of the claims made by its advertisers. Same for this example here... "suspicious looking" isn't proof..
Not being happy with a product or service does not constitute fraud on the part of the provider of that product/service.
Ulrich Not being happy with a product or service does not constitute fraud on the part of the provider of that product/service.
Yes, I agree with that. I am just wondering why Trains is being mentioned.
schlimm And the smart business practice of preserving one's good name and reputation would suggest that Trains should be more diligent about accepting trade school advertisements, since those places are widely known for often being essentially diploma/certificate mills.
Why do you conclude that Trains is not diligent engough about accepting trade school adverisements?
Ulrich"some proof" requires some investigation.. and as I stated that investigation would be costly, subjective in and of itself, and time consuming.
If you read more carefully what I wrote, you wouldn't make that remark.
And the reference to trade school ads was from a long time ago. Zugman repeated it on this thread. I wonder why you are so defensive of those trade schools and Trains advertisements to the point of ignoring custom and law?
I have no firsthand information about these trade schools nor do I have any information to suggest that they are fraudulant or dishonest. Trains probably doesn't either, hence they publish their ads. The OP provided no information about his experience other than that he was not happy with the outcome. I'm loath to cast dispersions on any person or organization for no reason or when I have no information to back me up. That's not defensive... just my sense of fair play.
The "ostrich head in the sand" idea applies? Or the "I know nothing" approach? The various abuses by trade schools are widesprad and well-known. Claiming ignornce is no excuse. At the very least Trains could simply require trade schools that seek to advertise to produce their most accreditation report in order to place the ad.
(1) Don't know of a single Class 1 that will hire on the basis of a 1 week correspondence or trade school course. The vetting system, right or wrong, wants to know a lot more ... plus the background tests and criminal record/driving record/financial records test pretty well separate the wheat from the chaff.
The clowns with the "I showed up, what more do you expect?" attitude can go try to flip burgers and upsell fries, if they are even qualified to do that. As it is, an awful lot of new-hires don't survive the first 6-24 months. (Doesn't matter the craft or profession ....and the railroads are a lot softer than they were even 10 years ago.)
(2) Johnson County Community College (KS) and North Platte Community College (NE) have programs partially supported by BNSF and UP respectively, not only for training new hires, but retraining and updating the old heads. I know NS has some idea that it is going to reach out to somebody, but they still have a good sized training system (by craft) spread out on their system. (Impressed with what I saw at Charlotte for the CWE/MoW folks.)
schlimm The "ostrich head in the sand" idea applies? Or the "I know nothing" approach? The various abuses by trade schools are widesprad and well-known. Claiming ignornce is no excuse. At the very least Trains could simply require trade schools that seek to advertise to produce their most accreditation report in order to place the ad.
Sure. Point me to some real evidence then. Names, dates, nature of abuse, etc.
If you want to be in denial, so be it. Look at what Mudchicken said about programs in his area. People in education will tell you the same thing. And it's not my job to prove it to you. It's the trade schools' job to show they are accredited. Trade schools have accounted for a dispropotionate share of the abuse of student loan programs through their lies and misrepresenations, cheating the students and the taxpayer. It has gone on for years. Two of many pages of links:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-08-14/news/9103280686_1_student-loan-defaults-default-rate-trade-schools
http://www.davidsugerman.com/wp-content/uploads/GAO-Report-For-Profit-Colleges.pdf Includes shorter, certificate programs.
And here is a link that details what a prospective student should look for. It is a big problem:https://kcrlegal.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/tips-to-avoid-trade-school-fraud/
UlrichA publication cannot be held responsibe for the veracity of advertisers' claims. The consumer is responsibe for validating claims prior to purchase...that's how it works. Caveat Emptor.
I'm not talking strictly leagal. I'm talking ethics and morals.
I disagree with you on this issue. That's all there is to it. We will never come to an understanding, I'm afraid.
Hamilton & Jackson speak very clearly, just like greasing an engine or ones palm.P.T. Barnum has been right on so many things.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
I'm still waiting for a job that requires the Liberal Arts B.A. I got in 1982...and I bet it cost more than the week long railroad class.
wjstix I'm still waiting for a job that requires the Liberal Arts B.A. I got in 1982...and I bet it cost more than the week long railroad class.
Apples and oranges.
I doubt if Cosmo magazine gives a damn if any of the pecker enlargement techniques that are advertised actually work...
I wonder what that due diligence would look like ?
Randy
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.