What is the most common cause of derailments?

[Anonymous]

What is the most common cause of derailments?

[SteelMonsters]

I'm guessing, but I think it's poor track maintenance followed by operator error..

[Anonymous]

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

[Anonymous]

By "poor track maintenance" , what specificly do you mean? The base material needs replacing, the ties are rotten or the track actually is too worn?

[Anonymous]

Ol' Buddy MWH, what about dispatcher error? Or was that included under the "operator" umbrella?

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

I'd think in Canadia the percentage for Environment would be higher.

It certainly would be if I was up there . . .

But those stats look pretty good to me.

And I think that I can say, without fear of contradiction, that Dispatchers don't break rules.

Old Timer

[Anonymous]

Approximately 5 or 6 years back, the Rochester & Southern shortline here, which serves Kodak Park as its primary customer, kept having cars derail (usually within the same 4 mile stretch). Upon a close examination, ties were found rotted out and many spikes were missing. In some cases the tie plate would be there and absent were all four spikes, not just one or two. It's safe to assume RSR performed minimal track inspection prior to that short lived episode.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

The facts you cite don't support the conclusion of minimal track inspection. They do support a conclusion of poor tie condition.

Oh?! You mean to say the missing spikes were an issue of poor tie condition? My assumption was faulty.

[Anonymous]

One more thing to clear up then your answer will satisfy me. Explain to me just how long it would take for all spikes to lift and separate from one tie plate. It would probably take considerable time being a shortline averaging 2 trains (4 passes) per day on average. And what's the chances of this condition not being observed and fixed before it got out of hand?

[jchnhtfd]

You could pull all the spikes out of a plate, under some conditions, with no more than 10 cars, never mind 10 trains. Yes, that would be an unusual situation: a single bad tie between two good ones, or a weak(er) than normal subgrade. Worse, you can walk the track just before the train and, unless you get down and wiggle each spike, not see the problem.

What is the chance of its being unobserved and fixed before it gets out of hand? Actually, pretty low -- because the track men whose jobs it is to inspect and repair the track take their jobs pretty seriously, and know what warning signs to look for. The 'and fixed' part is a little chancier; there you not only have to think about the track men, who may know perfectly well that there is a potential problem out there and said so, and the bean counters, who are sincerely hoping that the problem will wait a bit until they can afford to change out a whole bunch of ties at once, or relay a whole section of track at once. Usually they're right. Sometimes they're wrong, and bad things happen.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

What is the most common cause of derailments?

When the big round wheel thingies come off those long steel rail thingies?[:p]





Sorry I couldnt resist[:o)]

[espeefoamer]

The recent Union Pacific derailment in Pico Revira,was caused by a broken rail.The track had been inspected not too long before the accident.The train was traveling 57 MPH in a 60 MPH zone.

[jchnhtfd]

And before it comes up -- some types of rail fractures are just about completely impossible to see or sense with any kind of economically feasible (for the railroad to use) detector until they go pretty completely.

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
Track: 35%
Equipment: 35%
Other: 14%
Environment: 9%
Rules: 7%

I'm amazed at how close the models follow the prototypes again. Top causes of derailments on my layout are track (I'd say 50%) then equipment (Probably about 40%) and other/rules (10%) (Improperly protected work zone...oops).

So, to add to the discussion further, how many derailments are caused by out-of-gauge wheels?

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

What is the most common cause of derailments?

When the big round wheel thingies come off those long steel rail thingies?[:p]

Sorry I couldnt resist[:o)]

That could be traced back to gravity

[Anonymous]

Last week, one of our coal trains derailed about 5 minutes after meeting my train. After pulling out of a siding, a drawbar broke and dug down into the ties. 10 cars full of coal derailed. None of them tipped over but the damage to the track was extensive. As far as maintenence goes, here on the CP our track inspectors check every inch of mainline at least once per day. Speed restrictions are constantly placed anytime the smallest problem is encountered. As far as rule violations go, the vast majority of railroaders wouldn't ever consider risking their "ticket" by breaking a rule. If they did, you can be certain that the guy in the left seat wouldn't hesitate to pull the big red handle!

[mvlandsw]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

Rock Island had them on equipment that was standing still.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

"Poor" is the wrong adjective as it can imply incompetence or carefree. It's better just to leave the adjective off and not imply anything, unless you know the cause for a fact.

The precipitating event of all derailments at present, ranked in order:

1. track conditions
2. equipment defects
3. other causes
4. operator error

Note I did not use the word "cause." Causes are weather, training, materials, dereliction of duty, lack of funds, etc.

I am asking for the specific causes of dereailments because I am wondering what would be necessary to reduce their frequency.

It seems to me that the cleanup costs of a dereailment could be astronomical, especially if hazardous material was involved. If 50% of a lines annual cost was applied to the reduction of dereailments, would this be a wise fiscal expenditure?

I continue to read about the supposed convictions of railroad executives in the prevention of accidents. I am curious if you old timers think more should be done.

I see the population continually rising in the lower 48, daily tonnage is also continually rising. When was the last time someone laid 500 miles of new track to reduce costs and lower accidents per mile?

The ridiculous statement "We are insured" is a poor substitution for self responsibility as the frequency of dereailments and insurance premiums continue to climb.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill


Now THAT'S a good engineer.

And one who is very familiar with the power settings for a particular section of track! This man deserves wide public recognition amongst his peers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd


Worse, you can walk the track just before the train and, unless you get down and wiggle each spike, not see the problem.

Do we not have an electronic device that can read the solidity of a tie or is it necessary to actually drive a spike into one to determine the quality of the center?

I'm not an electronics engineer but I think something like this should be quite simple to design.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

Rock Island had them on equipment that was standing still.

The cause was?

[dldance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

Rock Island had them on equipment that was standing still.

The cause was?

In the case I'm familar with, the ties were so weak that the engine vibration cause the spikes on on rail to lift enough that the rail rolled.

dd

ps: MW Hemphill - what is a dragger?

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

Rock Island had them on equipment that was standing still.

I didn't know you could derail cars standing still !!! . . .

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mvlandsw

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

I've read about derailments when the trains were doing 70 and I've read about them when they were doing 10mph.

Are the causes similar?

Rock Island had them on equipment that was standing still.

MKT did, too.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by EightWheeler

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd


Worse, you can walk the track just before the train and, unless you get down and wiggle each spike, not see the problem.

Do we not have an electronic device that can read the solidity of a tie or is it necessary to actually drive a spike into one to determine the quality of the center?

I'm not an electronics engineer but I think something like this should be quite simple to design.

You have hit the one real problem with timber in general as a construction material: so far as I know, there is no way to determine the various structural properties near the center of a timber member, unlike steel, for instance, where most flaws will show under ultrasonic inspection. Which is why, when I design in timber, I use what is called 'glu-lam' structural timbers. In direct answer, measuring the withdrawal capacity of a spike or nail can, so far as I know, only be done by direct testing.

[nobullchitbids]

Just what we need for a question like this: More gravity.

[TH&B]

Standing serailments don't just happen on bad track (or at least cheap track), in Briton they had a freight train derail as it stopped on the high speed main because the track was heavily super elevated and the loads had too high a center of gravity !

[railroadmike11]

to answer the qustion, is that the operating companys will try to save every cent until they have to. most derailments are caused by bad track, most likely on less travled rail. all yard, switch leads, and spurs are mostly exempted track, which do not have regular inspections. next biggest cause is improper train handling, i.e. moveing the throttle from run 8 to dynamic 8. it happens alot! hot weather and cold weather has to do alot also. what is to blame is the cwr move around in those extremes. my company has detailed rules to operate in those conditions. and for the crew, we do know where the ruogh spots are and adapt to te situation, report the spot or take it easy thuogh that area. or do the old head thing... go fast they will fix it after the pick the cars up! not my option!

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
But the derailment rate isn't even remotely close to 50% of any line's annual cost, so the question is specious. What makes you think the cleanup costs are astronomical?

When you say derailment, are you referring to any time the wheels leaves the rail, or are you referring to a spilling of cars all over? I would guess that 95% of the derailments on a railroad happen when a wheel leaves the rails but the car stays upright.

[daveklepper]

Maybe there is a better approach to track construction than the traditional?