SD60MAC9500Are there any expansive information sources avaible on the proposed Colmer Cutoff? Seems interesting Santa Fe would make a move when the Belen Cutoff was already built.
IIRC they started building the line that would become known as the Colmer Cutoff southwest from Dodge City not all that long after the Raton Pass line was built. It follows the "Mountain Cutoff" of the old Sante Fe trail. However, progress was in fits and starts, and got bogged-down in the panhandle of OK. In the meantime it was eclipsed by the Belen Cutoff, altough as mentioned, construction was restarted into NM before stoping again in the depression. They utilized some trackage rights on the C&S in NM. If they had continued those trackage rights a little further to the NW to Des Moines, NM, where they meet an AT&SF branch from Raton, they also would have had a Raton Pass bypass. While they might have saved the climb over the pass, there was probably no milage improvement. And there was still Glorietta Pass.
The line southwest from Dodge City was opened for operation to Elkhart, KS (119.23 miles) on July 1, 1913. It was extended on through Boise City, OK to Felt, OK (58.82 miles) on January 1, 1925.
It was further extended from Felt, OK through Clayton and Mt Dora, NM to Farley, NM by November 15, 1931 (59.31 miles.) Total from Dodge City 239.36 miles.
And they started pulling back in 1942. (There is a claim that they were struggling with bridge piling bearing problems between Mt. Dora and Colmor mentioned earlier.) Santa Fe had run multiple exploratory surveys out there and filed more than one GLO filing map for lines that were never built.
SP (Dawson Ry & Az& CO Ry), CRIP (coming west from Liberal, crossing ATSF at Hugoton & Castaneda/Ramsey), SFRM&E, CB&Q, C&S/FW&D and others were all out there trying to get around and through the canyon country, but only General Dodge's FW&D was even mildly successful. To this day, nobody really lives out there except for the ranchers in the canyons and high desert.
The 4.03% grade (at Morley) is very real and very much there, right in the area where the coal tipple foundations remain. Was sent there more than once to prove where that was and why in my career with Chico's Kids. You can play with the numbers all you want, but you still have to get over it and have operating people who understand it and respect it.
As far as repositories, start with all the GLO filing maps that the (GLO/ Dept of the Interior) had now residing in RG 49 at Archives and follow-up with Kansas Historical's collection of stuff from the Topeka G.O.B. as the mergers played out.
Did anyone calculate the prospective time reduction from finishing the Dodge City - Colmor cutoff?
Interesting that they stopped work on it right about the time diesels were proving themselves in passenger service, and would have made the most of that faster trackage. I can see 'contributing the steel to the war effort' but was the bridge that much of a problem?
I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
Probably considered a lot of things. Then again the map drawers at ATSF (and other railroads) were full of broken dreams killed by budgets in the A&B accounting era with dwindling income.
Keep on wondering .....The Front Range rail bypass [Ft. Collins - Pueblo/Trinidad] keeps getting tragged out in various forms and iterations. As long as the rubber-tired centric CDOT bubbas are involved, that is doomed to never happen.
"Overmod"Did anyone calculate the prospective time reduction from finishing the Dodge City - Colmor cutoff? Interesting that they stopped work on it right about the time diesels were proving themselves in passenger service, and would have made the most of that faster trackage. I can see 'contributing the steel to the war effort' but was the bridge that much of a problem? I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
The entire line from Dodge City would have to be upgraded (signals - new heavier rail - ballast and more items) to high speed passenger standards comparable to what existed on the line through La Junta before it could operated with trains like the Chief and Super Chief. Diesel servicing needed to be available with a crew change location -probably Boise City - and staffing for servicing etc.
A number generated in the study showed a 2 hr shorter WB and 2 hr 11 min shorter EB schedule could be attained if all the necessary additives were established.
diningcar A number generated in the study showed a 2 hr shorter WB and 2 hr 11 min shorter EB schedule could be attained if all the necessary additives were established.
Wow. That would have given the Super Chief a distinct advantage over the City of LA. OTOH, wouldn't make much difference when competing with air travel.
Erik_MagWow. That would have given the Super Chief a distinct advantage over the City of LA.
diningcarThe line southwest from Dodge City was opened for operation to Elkhart, KS (119.23 miles) on July 1, 1913. It was extended on through Boise City, OK to Felt, OK (58.82 miles) on January 1, 1925.
Perhaps I was conflaiting the Colmor Cuttoff out of Dodge City with the Dodge City, Montezuma & Trinidad Railway which was built about 1890 and abandoned within 5 years. The ROW was used in one of the preliminary surveys for the Cimarron/Colmor cuttoff, but I am not sure if the ROW was used in final construction. It is mentioned in the following link which has a detailed history of the Colmor Cutoff.
http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/burton/Colmor.htm
It also mentions that there was renewed interest in the Colmor Cutoff when the southern transcon was overwhelmed with Texas oil in the 20s.
Someone tell me about the experimentation with broadcast power between Boise City and Farley in those last two years.
DC M & T was not used/ Different Alignment. (good luck finding any evidence of it on the part constructed. What little there is in print on it called it crude.)
Overmod I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
I imagine the massive waste of money blown on streamliners after WWII also contributed to RoW improvements taking a back seat..
I've often wondered just what BNSF would do if the states and the feds jumped in there and improved this line with all welded rail, PTC and lengthened CTC-controlled sidings? They might just look upon things differently.
That's kinda what happened with the Devil's Lake Line in North Dakota. At one time it was a possible candidate for abandonment with few if any trains using it other than Amtrak.
Then the states chipped in and improved the line and, I think, BNSF contributed some money as well, and now BNSF uses the line as a pop-off valve. A few years ago when oil traffic peaked they were using it a lot.
I know, I know, Raton Pass is most definitely NOT North Dakota and the grades are steep. But here's the thing: Those grades are only a problem for very heavy freight. Really HOT freight trains such as a lot of hot intermodal are not all that heavy. Santa Fe ran the Super C over this route and prior to the Santa Fe - BN merger they were also running a double stack train a few times per week.
The reason that the AT&SF ran most of their passenger trains on this route is that is was generally faster than the southern route.
The possibility of a big upgrade to this line is not completely out of the question. Joe Biden has been talking about BIG bucks for rail which in the end might or might not happen. Meanwhile the states and even the feds have already committed some funds.
Joe Biden is talking REALLY big but before we get too excited about that - I have watched this movie before where a president-elect has proposed spending a lot of money on the rail mode which, sadly, in the end never quite happened.
Regards,
FMC
This has been discussed in other contexts in other threads.
Remember that even in pre-oil-embargo days, when the Fast Forties and the BSM were the competition to (handily, as I recall) beat, the Super C made no real money. As with the fast Alphabet Route TOFC trains... speed didn't sell. It still really doesn't for railroad freight -- reliable, precise delivery at least effective cost does.
There might be a case for rebuilding the 'cutoff' and finishing those last 37 miles; I believe there is a similar cutoff proposal for Glorieta mentioned that if 'also' implemented might make the route comparable to other 'transcons'. There are two issues, though:
No one but a somewhat nutty government would pay the kind of money involved just to accelerate a couple of LD trains and benefit a private company run by one of the richest men in the world.
You're talking more than the amortized cost of effective dual-mode cat over both Raton and Glorieta, which has much better 'optics' for Green New Dealers as well as operational advantages for the prospective traffic, such as it is.
Now if the government could, say, get open access to the line, say with long-term guaranteed tax credits to BNSF or even BH, and then get state buy-in on improving things and helping pay for operations, you might see public money get allocated to upgrades. Do not ask me to start pumping down the electron microscope to measure the probability of that yet...
Overmod <SNIP> No one but a somewhat nutty government would pay the kind of money involved just to accelerate a couple of LD trains and benefit a private company run by one of the richest men in the world. <SNIP>
<SNIP>
Overmod,
Huh? Our government, nutty? OH NO! Surely not!
My point is that the line COULD be a target. They have already spent X-millions of dollars on the line. Government money tends to be followed by MORE government money. They have already spent and are continuing to spend money on this line that supports a single daily round trip of an Amtrak train with each train carrying at best 200 passengers. Er, well, that was the case. Now it's more like three round trips per week.
I don't think that a fully sane president of any privately owned railroad company would spend money on this line.
Don't get me wrong. I am not predicting a full revival of this line. I am just saying that it COULD happen and the way things stand now it appears as things might be moving in that direction but, who knows?
But what I really wonder, if BNSF sees that the money is there, they might get more involved too. Will they? Stay tuned.
Fred M. Cain
(1) BNSF does not use the line at all between Bernalillo and Trinidad.
(2) With New Mexico welching on the original deal and leaving BNSF to maintain everything north of Lamy, this helps BNSF how? (And the piece they cherry-picked is a screwed-up mess as far as Rail Runner goes - will never meet projections.
(3) If they can't execute the Ribera Loop line change, good luck with some fairy-tale effort at Glorietta (whatever that is) ... Oh, but they can fund ghost dancers on top of the cistern at Gise/Fox that people on the train see for maybe a nano-second along with the two- "art billboards" if they still exist. Why do you invest time and effort into something you no-longer control??
(4) Sounds like the revival of the Chico Chief (198) is DOA as well.
When ATSF still had it, the main line rail was just fine (probably still is), the adventure was in the passing sidings (exception Onava and Schomberg) with lighter jointed rail and no decent anchors... and no length to handle the longer 8500+ foot stuff. Passenger train meets for 3 & 4 were not an issue.
Fred M Cain I've often wondered just what BNSF would do if the states and the feds jumped in there and improved this line with all welded rail, PTC and lengthened CTC-controlled sidings? They might just look upon things differently. That's kinda what happened with the Devil's Lake Line in North Dakota. At one time it was a possible candidate for abandonment with few if any trains using it other than Amtrak. Then the states chipped in and improved the line and, I think, BNSF contributed some money as well, and now BNSF uses the line as a pop-off valve. A few years ago when oil traffic peaked they were using it a lot. I know, I know, Raton Pass is most definitely NOT North Dakota and the grades are steep. But here's the thing: Those grades are only a problem for very heavy freight. Really HOT freight trains such as a lot of hot intermodal are not all that heavy. Santa Fe ran the Super C over this route and prior to the Santa Fe - BN merger they were also running a double stack train a few times per week. The reason that the AT&SF ran most of their passenger trains on this route is that is was generally faster than the southern route. The possibility of a big upgrade to this line is not completely out of the question. Joe Biden has been talking about BIG bucks for rail which in the end might or might not happen. Meanwhile the states and even the feds have already committed some funds. Joe Biden is talking REALLY big but before we get too excited about that - I have watched this movie before where a president-elect has proposed spending a lot of money on the rail mode which, sadly, in the end never quite happened. Regards, FMC
One thing you fail to mention at the time when BNSF DID use Raton Pass.. Abo Canyon, Flint Hills, Canadian River Bridge, and other 2MT projects were ocurring along the Southern Transcon.. Some traffic was sent via Raton Pass due to these projects, not because Raton is a relief valve or a better route. Which doesn't justify keeping an expensive slower route in operation.. Raton Pass is outdated and it's time has been up for awhile, and no Raton Pass is not faster than the Belen Cutoff..
"and no Raton Pass is not faster than the Belen Cutoff.. " - Disagree (by 3-4 hours)...
I think what I’d really like to try and do is to go back and revisit this thread five years from (if I can find it again, that is) and by that time we will know a whole lot more of what happened. There’s just no sense arguing about the unknown. Let’s wait and see first.
BNSF has developed efficient options that avoid the need for the track between Jansen ( two miles S of Trinidad) and Bernalillo, NM.
If Congress chooses to subsiside the continual operation of the SW Chief with some matching participation from KS, CO and NM the Raton Pass line may remain operational. I see no other reason for it to remain; and yes I have a nostalgic connection because I worked on or with it for several years.
Fred M Cain I've often wondered just what BNSF would do if the states and the feds jumped in there and improved this line with all welded rail, PTC and lengthened CTC-controlled sidings? They might just look upon things differently.
No, they would avoid it and its 3.5 percent grades like the plague.
Fred M Cain That's kinda what happened with the Devil's Lake Line in North Dakota. At one time it was a possible candidate for abandonment with few if any trains using it other than Amtrak. Then the states chipped in and improved the line and, I think, BNSF contributed some money as well, and now BNSF uses the line as a pop-off valve. A few years ago when oil traffic peaked they were using it a lot.
This is mostly not true. Before the Bakken boom, BNSF was mostly not running any through trains on line knowing (as did come to pass) that Amtrak and/or some government entity would step in to help raising the track when Devils Lake (the lake) was evolving into an inland sea, as the states along the Empire Builder route - whether blue or red - are very protective of that train. But when Bakken traffic took off, BNSF did much more than contribute "some" money; it was more like 95% of it. Amtrak and the state each contributed one-third of the $97 million cost to raise the railroad from Churchs Ferry east. But BNSF put up the rest of the money and to basically rebuild the entire railroad from Surrey (Minot) to Fargo via Grand Forks, installing new ballast, ribbonrail, an entirely new signal system including CTC, and numerous new sidings. All part of an upgrade that included adding a second main track most of the way from Minot to Williston, a staging yard east of Glasgow, Montana, and adding crossovers and areas of second main track in Minnesota and Wisconsin - a price tag in the billions of dollars. The route between Fargo and Minot is far from a "pop-off valve;" it is considered an alternate main line, and crews operating between Dilworth, MN and Minot can use either route, though the route via Grand Forks and Devils Lake is usually used for westward trains.
Fred M Cain I know, I know, Raton Pass is most definitely NOT North Dakota and the grades are steep. But here's the thing: Those grades are only a problem for very heavy freight. Really HOT freight trains such as a lot of hot intermodal are not all that heavy. Santa Fe ran the Super C over this route and prior to the Santa Fe - BN merger they were also running a double stack train a few times per week.
Again, not true. The statement "grades are only a problem for very heavy freight" is over-the-top ridiculous. What weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers? Regardless of the type of train, the steeper the grade, the more resources it takes. In today's world, the hottest Z trains can be 5,000 to 7,000 tons and could be limited westbound on Raton Pass to just less than 4,000 tons or 5,500 tons, depending on the type of couplers (or they would need to run with distributed power, a cumbersome move on a high-priority train, relatively speaking). The maximum grade westbound on BNSF from Chicago to Los Angeles is currently 1.6 percent, but that would grow to 3.5 percent via Raton. Also, as these trains are often in excess of 7,000 feet in length - much longer than most of the sidings via Raton Pass. "Loaded Multi-platform double stack equipment may not be operated on the Raton Subdivision. (Car kind codes QY, QV, QW, QX, QT). Single well equipment (Car kind codes QU and QK) may be operated if loaded in the bottom only." In addition to these restrictions, there are train makeup restrictions (placement of loaded and empty cars) depending on train weight which would make even TOFC or single-stack trains labor-intensive getting the train prepared for the steep grades.
Fred M CainThe reason that the AT&SF ran most of their passenger trains on this route is that is was generally faster than the southern route.
Nope. The route through Clovis was just as fast, and is moreso today with the infrastructure improvements. It's not unusual for some of BNSF's Z trains to make the Los Angeles-to-Chicago trek via Clovis and Amarillo faster than Amtrak's Southwest Chief. But even in Santa Fe days, the reason the passenger trains operated via Raton Pass was to access the important markets of Santa Fe (at Lamy) and Albuquerque (and at one time, access the Denver market at La Junta - a service that lasted to the start of Amtrak). Operation via Clovis and serving Albuquerque would be possible, but wyeing the train would be necessary at Albuquerque. This should have been the option Amtrak chose in the late 1990s, but prior to Amtrak - when Santa Fe was operating multiple passenger trains through Albuquerque - it would have been cumbersome to turn that volume of trains.
Fred M CainThe possibility of a big upgrade to this line is not completely out of the question. Meanwhile the states and even the feds have already committed some funds.
The possibility of upgrading for freight trains is out of the question. They will never operate this way again. An upgrade for passenger trains would be enormous and basically require a new alignment over Raton and Glorieta Passes as well as the approach to the Pecos River where there are currently numerous stretches of 20 and 30 MPH track. The current alignment does not work to make passenger trains competitive with driving I-25 between, say, Denver and Albuquerque. The state and federal funding "commitment" has zero to do with any "upgrade." Basically, the money is just to maintain the route so that the Southwest Chief can continue to operate on it, as it's the only train that does so from Trinidad to Lamy. Far from any upgrade, it is basically a money pit that could have been avoided had the train been rerouted via Wichita and Clovis in the late 1990s when it became obvious (and BNSF stated as much) that freight traffic (specifically York Canyon coal) was going to evaporate, and that the much-lower-grade ex-ATSF and ex-FW&D/C&S routes between Pueblo and Amarillo would be upgraded for directional operation.
Mark Meyer
One source of traffic for Amtrak has been Philmont Scout Ranch, which wouldn't be served nearly as well from the Belen cut-off. Kind of doubt that the Philmont traffic come anywhere near close to justifying the cost of keeping Raton Pass open.
I get a laugh out of all of the so-called "professionals" on here who diss Raton Pass. It was a viable route then and it can be again.
Los Angeles Rams GuyI get a laugh out of all of the so-called "professionals" on here who diss Raton Pass.
What about all the professionals who actually run the railroad who "diss" Raton Pass?
diningcarBNSF has developed efficient options that avoid the need for the track between Jansen ( two miles S of Trinidad) and Bernalillo, NM.
Does the Rosario Asphalt plant still receive rail service?
mudchicken "and no Raton Pass is not faster than the Belen Cutoff.. " - Disagree (by 3-4 hours)...
VerMontanan "and no Raton Pass is not faster than the Belen Cutoff.. " - Disagree (by 3-4 hours)... So, the Raton Pass route had the fastest train, but it wasn't the fastest route. And with the infrastructure enhancements on the route via Clovis, that route is all the faster.
Hey, "Mudchicken",
My guess is that if it was 3-4 hours faster then that it had something to do with the line from central Kansas (new Newton) to Lamar or Trinidad. Trains could move like a bat out of hell on that line. It mostly had a top speed of 90 MPH and an engineer on a late train might even push the envelope to the century mark.
That made the line SO fast that it compensated somewhat for the slow running over Raton and Glorietta passes. If I'm not mistaken, I think there was also a little bit of 90 MPH running north (timetable east) of Albuquerque.
I'm not sure but I'm still under the impression that the Santa Fe's old ATS hardware is still in place. It's track conditions that have forced speed limits down. If the feds and the state fund the rebuilding of the line, would 90MPH speeds return? Huh! I can only guess about that. That's another "what if" just as is the rebuilding of the line and whether or not BNSF would use it again if it got rebuilt.
I don't think that we should argue about this because the future is totally unknown as I've said before. It's all a matter of "wait and see"
Fred M Cainit does not explain why the Santa Fe ran the Super C on the north line.
Vermont: At one point, the ATSF northern transcon was 3-4 hours faster (and one less crew district). As the crew districts got longer and the dispatching changed, that number dropped and the crew districts equalized.... even into the Q-Train / Rail Garrison era the line was still the faster way to go as they continued to improve the southern route. Unfortunately, there was not enough of a premium on fast freight to keep traffic with 9 symbols up there along with no consistent local business** . (even the trials with the road-railers reinforced that. No market, locomotive economics and suspicious "wind*" issues killed off that effort.)
The line was very viable and had to be respected. I don't think the general managers, superintendents, trainmasters, RFE's, roadmasters and dispatchers were living a lie making the thing work. Some of the best real world training and professional railroad guidance I have experienced came from those people. (some of the worst experiences I had was from people off the southern transcon who had oversized egoes and/or were generally clueless and not resourcefull )
Intimately familiar with Dodge City[Sears] -La Junta-Albuquerque [Hahn] as I have 10+ years experience in that country as part of my Santa Fe career.
I do NOT agree with your over-generalized and pre-conceived view of the ATSF original northern transcon. It does sound eerilly similar to many others who never set foot out there and try to cherry pick the facts. (fortunately the John Reids of the world could see through the bs)
(*) Odd, the wind issue seems to always wind up dumping trains in Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle.
(**) Which also meant less local freight and switches to dance around.
Fred: ATCS rarely, if ever was used in freight service. 79MPH or less didn't need it. (and spent too many hours looking for ATS shoes lost by Amthrax between Dodge City and Trinidad).....Wonder if BogieEngineer was ever with the test trains between La Junta and Trinidad when they were given absolute blocks and allowed to let fly..
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