There are many stories about the completion of the Raton Pass route and the competition between the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe to secure the route that BNSF would gladly rip out today (if they could ensure no competitor would propose taking over the line.. . My question - with the 3% grades and other operational difficulties, I don't fully understand why either of the two roads didn't just swing a few dozen miles to the east and build "around" the Sangre De Christo Range and save all the elevation changes. Full disclosure - I've never been to the eastern CO/NM border area - the net up-and-down may have been just as expensive given the extra mileage involved.
(1) Ever heard of the Cimarron Cut-Off (1912-1942)?
(2) Santa Fe Rocky Mountain & Eastern (Swastika Route)?
(3) Dawson Railway?
The "other way around" was a railroad to nowhere, to no water, to no marketable minerals and to NO people except the occasional wandering Indian. Multiple surveys* were made and filed - nothing was built. Plus the Puratoire/Picketwire canyons were nasty (still are), as was Capulin/ Cimarron country.....
* ATSF, Kansas Pacific, CB&Q, CRIP (via Liberal and also Dodge City), and others.
mudchickenPlus the Purgatoire/Picketwire canyons were nasty (still are)
And Liberty Valence was still running loose north of the Picketwire.
I never saw him in all my years around La Junta/ Las Animas. Diningcar?
Friend and college MC has already responded with incite and I shall offer this:
When Santa fe was at Granada, (now the station of Barton) following completion and securing the Land Grant through Kansas they did indeed survey (reconisance) the route you suggest. It was indeed lower and shorter than the Raton Pass line which Santa Fe eventually built. But there was at that time no source of - revenue, water for steam engines and timber for ties and bridges.
Santa Fe's competition was building into Colorado where all of these things were available, but most importantly the revenue from the mining that was prevalent in large quantatives at that time; and certainly needed for a newly established RR.
Later Santa Fe did look to build the 'Colmor Cutoff' from Dodge City, KS to the location 'Colmor' located some 40 miles south of Raton. They did indeed build part of it but what is now the TRANSCON LINE east from Belen was already established with lesser grades and a much shorter connection to the Texas revenue which was established and growing.
In retrospect we now see the wisdom of those decisions with th Raton Pass line not needed for the present and foreseeable traffic.
The gradients that I’ve seen listed consistently show it as 3.5%. Ouch! No wonder that BNSF does not use Raton Pass!
Years ago, in the heyday of the passenger train, AT&SF could zip up Raton with little effort. But, that zipping doesn’t happen with today’s long, sometimes heavy freights.
Need I say more?
Here in Southern California, surveyor Fred Perris staked out a line circa 1880 from San Diego, through the now famous Cajon Pass, to Barstow. I guess for expediency, he utilized a few 3% sections. Interestingly, today BNSF in Cajon Pass does not normally allow heavy downward trains to utilize the 3% line, only the 2.2% line. In light of Raton’s 3.5% grade, it is little wonder BNSF does NOT traverse the line.
Circa 2008 BNSF spend $80 million to add a third main to Cajon Pass for about 16 miles. To alter Raton Pass to make it freight friendly might cost $1 BILLION. No politicians have offered such a big sum, even in the name of National Security. There must be a reason for that …
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Well heck, let's get the track crew from the Blazing Saddles movie to build us a line from Raton Pass to Tennessee Pass via Alamosa, so's we can just run trains up the one and down the other . . . [ducks to avoid objects thrown by mudchicken and diningcar . . . ).
- Paul North.
FW&D and the EP&SW (Dawson railway) blocked any diversion to the East.
There do appear to be a pair of canyons to the west that could be part of a new route with a summit of similar height if desired, at around 36°56'33.70"N, 104°44'40.78"W. Clearly, though, there is no demand for such a line and the EP&SW could probably be rebuilt for less.
NorthWest FW&D and the EP&SW (Dawson railway) blocked any diversion to the East. There do appear to be a pair of canyons to the west that could be part of a new route with a summit of similar height if desired, at around 36°56'33.70"N, 104°44'40.78"W. Clearly, though, there is no demand for such a line and the EP&SW could probably be rebuilt for less.
ATSF Colmor Cutoff (what was built of it) utilized trackage rights on the FW&D (IIRC between Clayton and Mt Dora.) I'm not sure how you mean that the Dawson line would have blocked any diversion to th east. I think the final obstacle to the cutoff was the Canadian River Canyon.
The C&S Long Canyon branch went around west of the pass you geo-referenced. D&RG also graded up to a pass to the west of Raton and east of your reference.
What I meant was that the obvious and easy route was taken, and the Santa Fe could not continue roughly due west of Boise City and use it.
I hadn't actually ever heard of the Colmer Cutoff before, and it is interesting. http://www.abandonedrails.com/Colmor_Cut-off
I found one of the grades slightly west of the marker, but could not find one to the east. I selected that point as it is the closest the canyons get and would require the least amount of grades.
Paul_D_North_Jr Well heck, let's get the track crew from the Blazing Saddles movie to build us a line from Raton Pass to Tennessee Pass via Alamosa, so's we can just run trains up the one and down the other . . . [ducks to avoid objects thrown by mudchicken and diningcar . . . ). - Paul North.
Great concept, but I can picture those bums sleepin' on the job when it couldn't be more than 114 degrees out there!
NorthWest What I meant was that the obvious and easy route was taken, and the Santa Fe could not continue roughly due west of Boise City and use it. I hadn't actually ever heard of the Colmer Cutoff before, and it is interesting. http://www.abandonedrails.com/Colmor_Cut-off I found one of the grades slightly west of the marker, but could not find one to the east. I selected that point as it is the closest the canyons get and would require the least amount of grades.
One of the problems from Farley to Colmor was very "loose" ground and driving bridge piling to bearing was difficult or impossible. The loess & ash out there was really poor stuff to build embankment with.
(1) the warped 3.5% myth is getting pushed again (Baloney, unless you are talking about some kind of skewed average....)
(2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country)
(3) The connections at Mt. Dora and Clayton are still very visible.
(4) The BNSF (C&S/FW&D) Twin Mountain Sub from Trinidad to Texline also has some nightmare properties that may kill it off in the future.
garyla Paul_D_North_Jr Well heck, let's get the track crew from the Blazing Saddles movie to build us a line from Raton Pass to Tennessee Pass via Alamosa, so's we can just run trains up the one and down the other . . . [ducks to avoid objects thrown by mudchicken and diningcar . . . ). - Paul North. Great concept, but I can picture those bums sleepin' on the job when it couldn't be more than 114 degrees out there!
mudchicken garyla Paul_D_North_Jr Well heck, let's get the track crew from the Blazing Saddles movie to build us a line from Raton Pass to Tennessee Pass via Alamosa, so's we can just run trains up the one and down the other . . . [ducks to avoid objects thrown by mudchicken and diningcar . . . ). - Paul North. Great concept, but I can picture those bums sleepin' on the job when it couldn't be more than 114 degrees out there! Try building it in the winter with the snow blowing sideways and coating everything in ice. Think we can nominate from the forum who gets to be Headley Lamar, the Governor and Taggart.
Try building it in the winter with the snow blowing sideways and coating everything in ice. Think we can nominate from the forum who gets to be Headley Lamar, the Governor and Taggart.
Nevermind that ****, Here comes Mongo!!!
Thanks for your comments and knowledge, MC. I am lost as to your point with 1, but I think I understand the rest.
They're going to move everything to the Boise City Sub?
mudchicken ... (2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country) ...
...
Was this mainly for the York Canyon coal trains so that they could avoid Glorietta Pass? How would the route connect from Tucumcari to the rest of the ATSF?
NorthWest Thanks for your comments and knowledge, MC. I am lost as to your point with 1, but I think I understand the rest. They're going to move everything to the Boise City Sub?
MidlandMike mudchicken ... (2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country) ... Was this mainly for the York Canyon coal trains so that they could avoid Glorietta Pass? How would the route connect from Tucumcari to the rest of the ATSF?
Everybody forgets about the EB challenge on Glorietta w/ heavy freight, such is the obsession w/ Raton. Passenger trains is one thing - freight is quite another.
(LC claimed the rights to Mongo many moons ago)
M-Mike, The Tucumcari SP-UP line crosses the Santa Fe-BNSF at Vaughn, NM and a connection could have been constructed, but as MC points out the suits just see lines on a map and believe it will work When they are shown the costs and the negative operational features they pretend they did not have the idea.
mudchickenMax grade is 4.03% at Morley
The mountains were a two edged sword. They were an operational headache, but also a source of revenue. In the Raton area this was coal, timber, and other traffic that traveled the Santa Fe Trail.
CatFoodFlambe There are many stories about the completion of the Raton Pass route and the competition between the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe to secure the route that BNSF would gladly rip out today (if they could ensure no competitor would propose taking over the line.. . My question - with the 3% grades and other operational difficulties, I don't fully understand why either of the two roads didn't just swing a few dozen miles to the east and build "around" the Sangre De Christo Range and save all the elevation changes. Full disclosure - I've never been to the eastern CO/NM border area - the net up-and-down may have been just as expensive given the extra mileage involved.
timz mudchicken Max grade is 4.03% at Morley The chart says the 4.03% is 300 ft long. If we can believe the chart, the steepest half-mile on Raton doesn't average more than 3.5% actual.
The chart says the 4.03% is 300 ft long. If we can believe the chart, the steepest half-mile on Raton doesn't average more than 3.5% actual.
You are in tangent where the 4.03% sits (for about 750' IIRC), the curves get tighter uphill going towards the tunnels.
(the problem with the grades published in the track chart is that they were 1878 original top of subrade, don't include vertical curves and don't show T/R profile. There are places up there where it's a serious climb in the ballast shoulder to get up to top of tie level. UP's PMV vehicles have good relative data on what's out there today from their GIS program. BNSF got sold a bill of goods [FLYMAP] that a buncha non-surveyor engineers bought into* and they are now busy playing catch-up.)
* "Hey! - I got coordinates" - Relative to what? Are they repeatable? Are they believable? (Precise? [NO] Accurate? [NO] Going to save BNSF big $$$$ in future design work and planning? )
mudchickenBNSF got sold a bill of goods [FLYMAP] that a buncha non-surveyor engineers bought into* and they are now busy playing catch-up.)
Is this the German company ("Navigation in Perfektion") that can't even figure out how to get an English-language Web site to work?
All the bells and whistles an air operation (or, BNSF probably noted, drone/UAV operation) would want ... railroads on the ground that have to be precisely aligned, not so much...
Paul_D_North_JrAny curves in that stretch to be compensated for, or conversely, would add to the nominal gradient ?
Total curvature is about 803 degrees, which makes the average compensated grade 3.40%.
diningcar Later Santa Fe did look to build the 'Colmor Cutoff' from Dodge City, KS to the location 'Colmor' located some 40 miles south of Raton. They did indeed build part of it but what is now the TRANSCON LINE east from Belen was already established with lesser grades and a much shorter connection to the Texas revenue which was established and growing
Later Santa Fe did look to build the 'Colmor Cutoff' from Dodge City, KS to the location 'Colmor' located some 40 miles south of Raton. They did indeed build part of it but what is now the TRANSCON LINE east from Belen was already established with lesser grades and a much shorter connection to the Texas revenue which was established and growing
Santa Fe always had New Mexico as a destination which its naming implies. In 1873 they had reached the Colorado state line thus fulfilling the obligation which gave them a large land grant. The reason for building toward the Colorado line was because on the route chosen there was water for steam locomotives, plus timber for ties and bridges and minerals for revenue in Colorado; little of which were available along the various southwesterly routes examined
The Belen cutoff was built primarily to aid the freight business which had developed and was handicaped by the Raton Pass grades. Also the freight business between southern Texas and the west coast could now be moved expeditiously with the construction of a new line from Temple, TX connecting to the Belen cutoff at the location Texico, just east from Clovis.
But passenger business was still solicited and mostly utilized the Raton Pass route. A study was made to reduce the Raton Pass constraints with a route between Dodge City and Colmor, NM. If Completed this line would have been sixty six miles shorter than the line through La Junta and Raton Pass with maximum grades of one percent and most curves two degrees or less. Speeds could be 75-100 MPH over much of the cutoff route. Money constraints eventually halted this construction at Farley, NM in November 1931, the beginning of the great depression. Farley was about 37 miles from the completion location at Colmor with a significant bridge needed over the Canadian River.
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