schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.
To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken.
Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?
I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.
I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
23 17 46 11
I was simply saying I take the CEO's account word for word. I see no reason to 'interpret" it.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Murphy Siding silly threads such as this one
Murphy Siding Have you read anything that said anyone was growing so inebreiated that they were defiant and uncooperative?
The account I read stated that the staff asked the bookclub to "tone it down" three times, to no avail. Let's bear in mind that the train belongs to the NVWT, they have a right to try and control the environment. The fact that the bookclub defied and refused to cooperate with those requests serves as it's own testimony.
In an environment where intoxicating beverages are served, I believe that it's reasonable to conclude that uncooperative behavior defying requests made by staff, could be a result of intoxication.
I know of absolutely no precedent whatsoever, where a bar has been found in error for "cutting-off" suspect troublemakers. I know of no incidents where a bar was required to administer a blood alcohol test to back up their suspicion that a customer has had too much. But I invite you to provide examples if you can find them.
If you go back and read my comment, I offered that "cutting-off" the offending revelers would have been a superior solution to the events as they actually transpired.
"Here, have a cup of coffee on the house, your behavior is causing us to become concerned for your welfare". Try and sue me for that
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
schlimm Murphy Siding schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group." Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them. No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements. You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.
Murphy Siding schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group." Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them.
schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."
ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.
I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.
I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.
How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."
Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them.
No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements. You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.
Wow. Didn't see that coming. I did notice that about three days ago, the book club said that the wine train's apology was not accepted, and there was mention of a lawsuit. Maybe some others on the train will come forward and tell what really happened.
Convicted One Murphy Siding what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from? If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead? You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?" card
Murphy Siding what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?
If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead? You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?" card
Murphy Sidingwhat unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?
Convicted One Euclid Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise. I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons. That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?
Euclid Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons
litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise.
I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons.
That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?
Well, there's bars and there's bars. When I go to a bar, which isn't very often, what I want is place to enjoy a quiet beer or two with a friend or two. That being the case I don't go to sports bars, singles bars, music bars, biker bars, party bars, or what-have-you bars. I know what to expect in those places so I don't go there.
Seems to me that the Wine Train should figure out just what kind of venue it wants to be and post that on the reservation information so any potential patrons know what they're getting into and what's expected of them so there's no surprises.
I mean, none of us go to a fancy, high-toned restaurant and expect to shout to be heard, do we?
Just so there's no mistake, I wasn't on the Wine Train when this incident occured so I'm making no pretense at knowing what happened.
EuclidUsing the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons
Like a bar it’s got a bouncer.
http://nvrpolice.com/nvrpolice.html
Enjoy’n the party?
http://online.ceb.com/calcases/C3/50C3d370.htm
gardendanceFinal word you say? Challenge accepted.
I think you misunderstood what I said. NVWT CEO Tony Giaccio's statement indicated that the train crew acted inappropriately, both on the train and afterwards in the FB post. I agree with the CEO, you and Wanswheel. The train is a bar and not the public library. The expectation should be that groups will be somewhat noisy.
“Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group.
“We were insensitive when we asked you to depart our train by marching you down the aisle past all the other passengers. While that was the safest route for disembarking, it showed a lack of sensitivity on our part that I did not fully conceive of until you explained the humiliation of the experience and how it impacted you and your fellow Book Club members.
“We also erred by placing an inaccurate post on our Facebook site that was not reflective of what actually occurred.
schlimm +2 Thanks for what would seem to be the final word on this event.
+2 Thanks for what would seem to be the final word on this event.
Final word you say? Challenge accepted.
wanswheel Excerpt from Napa Valley Register ... Johnson said, the train’s maître d’hotel told the group, “Your noise level is a little loud, and you have to tone it down so we don’t make others uncomfortable." ... “She said people were complaining and I said, ‘Who’s complaining?’ And she said, ‘Well, people’s faces are uncomfortable,'” said Johnson. “At that point, one passenger nearby said, 'Well, this is not a bar.' We reacted, 'Yes, it is a bar, a bar on wheels.'"
although these are Johnson's quotes of someone else's quotes, if they're accurate:
1. In my opinion noone in customer service should EVER use words like "you need to". This phrase does not defuse a problen, it angers the recipient and escalates the situation.
2. apparently the staff did not lie, at least one fellow passenger complained, presumably the person who said "this is not a bar"
3. the photo clearly shows drinking glasses hanging from the ceiling, that sure fits my definition of a bar.
wanswheel
and the clincher is this photo. That sure looks like a bar to me.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
“I want to apologize for your experience on the Napa Valley Wine Train on Saturday, Aug. 22. We accept full responsibility for our failures and the entire chain of unfortunate events you experienced.
“We also erred by placing an inaccurate post on our Facebook site that was not reflective of what actually occurred. In the haste to respond to criticism and news inquires, we made a bad situation worse by rushing to answer questions on social media. We quickly removed the inaccurate post, but the harm was done by our erroneous post.
“In summary, we were acutely insensitive to you and the members of the Book Club. Please accept my apologies for our many mistakes and failures. We pride ourselves on our hospitality and our desire to please our guests on the Napa Valley Wine Train. In this instance, we failed in every measure of the meaning of good service, respect and hospitality.
“I appreciate your recommendation that our staff, which I believe to be among the best, could use additional cultural diversity and sensitivity training. I pledge to make sure that occurs and I plan to participate myself.
“As I offered in my conversation with you today, please accept my personal apologies for your experience and the experience of the Book Club members. I would like to invite you and other members to return plus 39 other guests (you can fill an entire car of 50) as my personal guests in a reserved car where you can enjoy yourselves as loudly as you desire.
“I want to conclude again by offering my apologies for your terrible experience.”
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150825006065/en/%E2%80%9CWe-100-Wrong%E2%80%9D-Napa-Wine-Train-Executive#.Vd99nXlRGM8
ouibejamncracker card
Russell
jimnorton I wish, when I feel slighted, I could play the "bald card!"
You could always play the "cracker card". Seriously, I suspect down there in Alabama you're doing just fine, political correctness notwithstanding.
To me this doesn't sound like race really was an issue beyond the hurt feelings of those involved but a case of "laughing while obnoxious". I have been in several wineries where the same obnoxious behavior occurs when a small group of people drinking get obnoxiously loud. The difference in a winery is that you can move to another area farther away or outside even. On a wine/dinner train that's not possible as seats are assigned so if you get seated next to the "party crew" your visit can get utterly ruined by the actions of a few inconsiderate people who have no consideration for their fellow human. It has NOTHING to do with race its about behavior and consideration for others.
Now that said, I also think the wine train over-reacted a fair bit as well. Unless they were tossing glasses, being combative and hurling obscenities and behaving generally like brawling sailors on shore leave, was expulsion and a police escort really necessary? Of course, I wasn't there so its hard for me to say that with absolute conviction. I'd be curious to hear how the other passengers reacted. Did they cheer when they got tossed or were they like 'why we stopping?"
Have fun with your trains
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