My experience was at a Pappadeaux Seafood Kitchen near Oakbrook, IL. This is a very upscale ($$$) New Oleans themed seafood restaurant We were celebrating a birthday and our party of eight was seated at a table in a separate room from the main dining room with another group of about twelve who were having some kind of a celebration. They were black and were having a good time. They were too loud for us to have a conversation at our table. They were not talking to us and we did not talk to them. We asked our server if there was any other place we could be seated in the restaurant that was quieter. They did and we were moved. Issue solved. The restaurant did not have to impose on the other group to restrain their enthusiasm and the remained in the room by themselves.
On the Napa Valley Wine Train, I don't know how fully booked the train was and whether space was available to provide separation but when a party gets so loud that it becomes too loud for others to sustain a conversation, then the loud party is creating a nuisance and the crew may have been justified in their actions.
Euclid schlimm Euclid said: The wine train has the right to impose their social contract on their patrons. Why did the women think they had the right to defy the social contract of the wine train and impose their own social contract on the wine train? The women may have been very calm and clear about their view of the issue, as you say, but their view is wrong. Euclid: You seem to lack any comprehension of what is the culture of a reasonably classy retail business. Rule #1: The customer is right, meaning a smart manager generally defers to the customers. There are limits to “The customer is always right.” One limit is that a business cannot allow a customer to disturb or degrade the experience of the other customers. To that end, businesses do control the behavior of their customers.
schlimm Euclid said: The wine train has the right to impose their social contract on their patrons. Why did the women think they had the right to defy the social contract of the wine train and impose their own social contract on the wine train? The women may have been very calm and clear about their view of the issue, as you say, but their view is wrong. Euclid: You seem to lack any comprehension of what is the culture of a reasonably classy retail business. Rule #1: The customer is right, meaning a smart manager generally defers to the customers.
Euclid said: The wine train has the right to impose their social contract on their patrons. Why did the women think they had the right to defy the social contract of the wine train and impose their own social contract on the wine train? The women may have been very calm and clear about their view of the issue, as you say, but their view is wrong.
Euclid: You seem to lack any comprehension of what is the culture of a reasonably classy retail business. Rule #1: The customer is right, meaning a smart manager generally defers to the customers.
I'd definately agree with this statement.
EuclidThere are limits to “The customer is always right.”
Russell
Euclid droughtquake Different cultures have different social rules. Other groups might find your actions and behaviors to be offensive. Why do you think you have the right to impose your 'social contract' on others? Additionally, there were nearly a dozen women in their party. They were excited to be experiencing something new. Not all the women are Black. Some of the other (white) passengers couldn't understand why the women were being singled out. They said the women weren't doing anything wrong. The party was forced to walk the entire length of the train to disembark. The police who were waiting for them on the platform seem confused as to why they were called. This was a group of middle-aged women in a book club. It's not like they were gangsters or anarchists. They are a respectable group who were having an interesting outing. The women see this as an example of lack of respect; the Wine Train management doesn't seem to understand that and wonders why their weak attempts to mollify the group have been rejected. The Wine Train (and many others) need to take a step back and really listen to what the women are saying. They've been very calm and clear about their view of the issue. T
droughtquake Different cultures have different social rules. Other groups might find your actions and behaviors to be offensive. Why do you think you have the right to impose your 'social contract' on others? Additionally, there were nearly a dozen women in their party. They were excited to be experiencing something new. Not all the women are Black. Some of the other (white) passengers couldn't understand why the women were being singled out. They said the women weren't doing anything wrong. The party was forced to walk the entire length of the train to disembark. The police who were waiting for them on the platform seem confused as to why they were called. This was a group of middle-aged women in a book club. It's not like they were gangsters or anarchists. They are a respectable group who were having an interesting outing. The women see this as an example of lack of respect; the Wine Train management doesn't seem to understand that and wonders why their weak attempts to mollify the group have been rejected. The Wine Train (and many others) need to take a step back and really listen to what the women are saying. They've been very calm and clear about their view of the issue.
Other groups might find your actions and behaviors to be offensive. Why do you think you have the right to impose your 'social contract' on others?
Additionally, there were nearly a dozen women in their party. They were excited to be experiencing something new. Not all the women are Black.
Some of the other (white) passengers couldn't understand why the women were being singled out. They said the women weren't doing anything wrong.
The party was forced to walk the entire length of the train to disembark. The police who were waiting for them on the platform seem confused as to why they were called.
This was a group of middle-aged women in a book club. It's not like they were gangsters or anarchists. They are a respectable group who were having an interesting outing.
The women see this as an example of lack of respect; the Wine Train management doesn't seem to understand that and wonders why their weak attempts to mollify the group have been rejected. The Wine Train (and many others) need to take a step back and really listen to what the women are saying. They've been very calm and clear about their view of the issue.
Euclid droughtquake Different cultures have different social rules. Other groups might find your actions and behaviors to be offensive. Why do you think you have the right to impose your 'social contract' on others? Additionally, there were nearly a dozen women in their party. They were excited to be experiencing something new. Not all the women are Black. Some of the other (white) passengers couldn't understand why the women were being singled out. They said the women weren't doing anything wrong. The party was forced to walk the entire length of the train to disembark. The police who were waiting for them on the platform seem confused as to why they were called. This was a group of middle-aged women in a book club. It's not like they were gangsters or anarchists. They are a respectable group who were having an interesting outing. The women see this as an example of lack of respect; the Wine Train management doesn't seem to understand that and wonders why their weak attempts to mollify the group have been rejected. The Wine Train (and many others) need to take a step back and really listen to what the women are saying. They've been very calm and clear about their view of the issue. The wine train has the right to impose their social contract on their patrons. Why did the women think they had the right to defy the social contract of the wine train and impose their own social contract on the wine train? The women may have been very calm and clear about their view of the issue, as you say, but their view is wrong.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I wonder if this will make a difference:
http://napavalleyregister.com/news/local/update-napa-valley-wine-train-sold/article_651abbe7-a6c9-55c6-98bd-c5c3147a4400.html
James
csxns tree68 group lacked the civility to respect their fellow passengers Thank you.
tree68 group lacked the civility to respect their fellow passengers
Thank you.
Different cultures have different social rules.
Strength in diversity!
Euclid If you give one faction what they want, the other faction goes away. hires a lawyer
there...."fixed".
NKP guy tdmidget: You are absolutely correct. I'm not sure where that number (50) came from and I failed to double-check it.
tdmidget: You are absolutely correct. I'm not sure where that number (50) came from and I failed to double-check it.
The company also promised additional training for employees on cultural diversity and sensitivity, and they offered the group free passes for 50 people for a future trip. Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20150825_ap_ca23d5cebe5d417084a5f5ed3123534a.html#3szppOxtOm2mtGms.99
The company also promised additional training for employees on cultural diversity and sensitivity, and they offered the group free passes for 50 people for a future trip.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20150825_ap_ca23d5cebe5d417084a5f5ed3123534a.html#3szppOxtOm2mtGms.99
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
schlimmAlso well put. From what the CEO said, it seems that some form of additional training will be given to NVWT personnel. Perhaps they could start with two mottos of retail founders: "Give the lady what she wants" -Marshall Field; and "The customer is always right" - Harry Selfridge.
Isn't the first time where someone goes a little overboard when they think they have a little authority. (we've seen it in the past on this very forum with certain past moderators).
Yeah, timing played a big part in why this is national news. Doesn't make it any more right or wrong, though. Just more visible.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BaltACD ^ Well put. The Wine Train staff seriously mishandled the entire situation and then to compound the mishandling, the put the incident on social media. In today's world, social media has basically replaced the 'Society Pages' of every cities daily fish wrapper. Amtrak certainly doesn't issue a posting on every 'unruly passenger' that they have police assistance in removing from their trains; unless it ends up on the Podunk Gazette's police activity report column. Wine Train personnel need more training in how to EFFECTIVELY handle situations to bring about best possible feelings for the Wine Train for the highest number of customers.
^
Well put. The Wine Train staff seriously mishandled the entire situation and then to compound the mishandling, the put the incident on social media.
In today's world, social media has basically replaced the 'Society Pages' of every cities daily fish wrapper. Amtrak certainly doesn't issue a posting on every 'unruly passenger' that they have police assistance in removing from their trains; unless it ends up on the Podunk Gazette's police activity report column.
Wine Train personnel need more training in how to EFFECTIVELY handle situations to bring about best possible feelings for the Wine Train for the highest number of customers.
Also well put. From what the CEO said, it seems that some form of additional training will be given to NVWT personnel. Perhaps they could start with two mottos of retail founders: "Give the lady what she wants" -Marshall Field; and "The customer is always right" - Harry Selfridge.
zugmann Semper Vaporo They need to separate their "socializing" from their "job". One shoud NEVER consider posting comments about their work or employer on a "social" website. It is too easy to violate someone's privacy, divulge personal info, or violate a confidentialality clause concerning their employment. But I suppose that would leave a lot of folk with nothing to say on the internet!!! "It would make this forum boring as crap."
Semper Vaporo They need to separate their "socializing" from their "job". One shoud NEVER consider posting comments about their work or employer on a "social" website. It is too easy to violate someone's privacy, divulge personal info, or violate a confidentialality clause concerning their employment. But I suppose that would leave a lot of folk with nothing to say on the internet!!!
They need to separate their "socializing" from their "job". One shoud NEVER consider posting comments about their work or employer on a "social" website. It is too easy to violate someone's privacy, divulge personal info, or violate a confidentialality clause concerning their employment. But I suppose that would leave a lot of folk with nothing to say on the internet!!!
"It would make this forum boring as crap."
It is the eclectic nature of the group that 'post' on thses Forums that make it pretty interesting, and worthwhile to follow IMHO ! It is the very diversness of the answers to questions asked or stated that makes for interesting reading.
Today's Society is too much into what amounts to "Political Correctness", which would seem to be, in my opinion, the Minorities attempting to control the thoughts, and speech of the Majorities. Society's loss is the lack of diversness of speech and exchange of ideas. Civility is lost as one segment of Society attempt to bully other segments by making light of the positions and issues of others.
It would make this forum boring as crap.
Convicted OneFrom my perspective, what i'm seeing is that many among the black community seem to think that their skin color somehow exempts them from having to deal with this aspect of human nature, by exploiting this nations sensitivity and inability to address racial matters on a level playing field. The system has been made up such that the low hanging fruit is to play the "R" card.
But I still stand by what I wrote previously: People (customers) matter more than rules, especially when those rules are arbitrary (who is to say what exactly "boisterous" is).
I do read well. However, I sometimes fail to remember well.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
EuclidFrom these basic reported facts, I conclude that the book club is at least partly at fault for the humiliation of being ejected from the train.
One thing in particular that amuses me is, I encounter abusive control-obsessed types all the time. Many of them are unemployed. many more still are employed, and more than a small percentage manage to find their way into positions of authority.
That's just life. You deal with it. If I feel I've been abused at a store, or a restaurant for example, and no remedy is forthcoming, I make sure that the offending establishment never sees the green of my dollar, again. But, there is no way to eliminate all the jerks in society, (god must love jerks, he made so many of them etc.) It's just an unfortunate facet of human nature.
From my perspective, what i'm seeing is that many among the black community seem to think that their skin color somehow exempts them from having to deal with this aspect of human nature, by exploiting this nations sensitivity and inability to address racial matters on a level playing field.
The system has been made up such that the low hanging fruit is to play the "R" card.
You don't read very well, do you? There were not 50 in the party, there were 11.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
May I add my two cents worth on this topic?
As I understand it members of the book club were in one car and getting loud ("boisterous") and the crew was getting complaints from a few other people in the same car. Since the book club members numbered about 50, how many other people could there have possibly been in that car?
Wouldn't common sense dictate that those few who are doing the objecting be themselves offered seats (and maybe a free drink, if you want to be generous) in another, quieter car? This train is a business. If it were my train, I'd do everything I could to get that book club to book again for next year and the next year. I would do what I could to make them happy and repeat customers in the future. Clubs have a way of doing that; they find a place they like and they go there again. Consider, too, that some of those book club customers might return with their families and friends or tell others about their happy experience.
Now, what about those few disgruntled passengers who were offered a quiet place in another car? Especially if they were given a free drink and an apology (from the conductor?) about being moved, I think they would be happy. Being individuals and not a group, my guess is they would have less probability of returning in the first place, but the extra hospitality would leave a good taste in their collective mouth, as it were.
This incident might have been entirely avoided if the employees were more devoted to creating repeat customers than making sure the rules were strictly enforced. Consequently, I fear this marvelous wine train, this wonderful asset to the Napa Valley, this money-making business, will be severely damaged in many ways by the narrow-minded thinking that rules matter more than customers.
As for the damages and awards in court, my guess is this will be settled long before a trial is set. The book club members will get something, but not anywhere near what their attorney naturally says would be a sufficient amount.
Race may or may not have played a part. But as anyone who watches daytime TV can attest, groups of females enjoying themselves make a lot of racket, much more so, in my opinion, than men. Want to bet that the complainers in the car and the member of the crew who made the unfortunate call were male?
People, we all have to get a little more sensitive to the sensibilities of other people these days. Customers have lots of options for their dollar. I'd want to impress those points upon my employees, especially if I ran a wine train and wanted groups of passengers to come and return again.
edblysard schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime? Your use of the word atrocious defines the issue, clarifies that it is indeed about race. If this had been a group of mid-level white businessmen, it would never have made the news, much less attracted attention here. It certainly would not have been “atrocious”, in fact, I imagine it may even have been lauded as the proper thing to do. You then suggest, obliquely, that some people here are raciest and would have gladly participated in escorting the group off the train. And yes, I have been part of such a group. Loud, obnoxious, rude and pretty much into our cups, we discovered if you all, as a group, get in the rear portion of a 727, and everyone runs forward at the same time; the nose of the aircraft will dip, a lot! And if you then run to the back, it rises. I thought the second officer was going to have a stroke or a heart attack! Delta refused to ever book our group again, and had airport police escort us off the plane when we landed. Totally deserved, and we understood why.
schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.
To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken.
Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?
I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.
I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
Perhaps if you actually read what the CEO had said, you would not make such a comment. Since when does "atrocious" define that the issue is about race? Nor did I say, whether directly or obliquely, that some people here are "raciest." You seem to read that into the remarks.
I also do not like loud, noisy, drunken groups. I avoid them. I seldom drink alcohol and do not go to bars. To each his own. However, you seem to be oblivious to a major point. The CEO said “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Your story of drunks on an airplane really is not analogous.
What is atrocious is marching a group of people down the aisle of a party train (in business to serve alcohol), and forcing them off to exit to a police reception, whether they were a group of black book club women or Asian, male hedge fund managers or a white Gay Pride group.
After you sobered up.
23 17 46 11
schlimmI never said one word about race
The subject is entirely without merit, absent any angle of race. It is inherently a matter of race.
If the group expelled for being too loud was all, or predominantly white, there would be no news significance to the story, and people would scoff at the mere suggestion that the group had in any way been wronged.
This is ONLY a matter of race. But not the one getting all the attention.
edblysard schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime? Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.
Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.
Please do not put words in other's posts. I never said one word about skin color. But you did.
And "folks" was used in a question as to how many here might have done the same thing as that crew. So why would I need to cite any documentation? Or in your world, is that now a prereq for asking questions?
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