One man crews: Spread the enthusiasm

[Mookie]

Wow!

[BaltACD]

Deggesty

BaltACD

Deggesty

Yesterday, one our posters expressed the thought that perhaps knuckles should be made stronger so that they would hold up better under certain stresses. 

I will ask: How many of you have seen a drawbar lying  between the rails in front of the car that it was in? I have a memory of seeing one (50-60 years ago?), and it was not a pretty sight. I do not know what one weighs, but I am confident that it would take more than two men to handle one drawbar (drawhead, lung, etc.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's cheating! 

 

I wonder: after the lung is back in place, how long does it take to secure it and make certain the brake line is also secure?

 

As much time as the Car Dept and their Brandt truck require to place the draft gear in place and get it welded securely to the car and patch up the trainline - a work day (give or take).

What is pictured is part of the set out process - getting 'rid' of the pulled out draft gear - crew will need Car Dept assistance to uncouple the draft gear from the car it is coupled to - the angle creates a bind that has to be relieved before the bad draft gear can be released.

[dehusman]

Deggesty

I wonder: after the lung is back in place, how long does it take to secure it and make certain the brake line is also secure?

That's nothing that's going to be fixed in the field.  It has completely ripped the center frame beyond the center sill out of the car.  That is a seriously damaged car.

[jeffhergert]

A Dynamiter or Kicker (we use Dynamiter in my area) is when making a service application on the automatic brake and some car's control valve goes to the emergency position instead.  The car that caused it is the "Dynamiter."  

We also talk about letting the train line dynamite, leaving the anglecock open like you're supposed to do and letting the air all escape at once.

A hose coming apart or the EOT falling off may cause the train line to dynamite, but it's not a true Dynamiter.  It's just a UDE or Undesired Emergency.  Although a Dynamiter is also a UDE. 

I've always thought it funny that needing to use the Emergency position could ever be desired.  I know it's a distiction between an engineer application as compared to an in-train condition, but if you desire to use emergency things aren't well.  I have had to go to emergency a couple of times.

Jeff

[Euclid]

Somewhere lately, somone made the point that brakes dynamiting due to a derailment is not a UDE.  I can see the point being that the dynamiting is the proper thing to happen, so it is desired.  Although it was not intentionally done by the engineer, so not directly desired.  

Once there was a story in Trains about an engineer who was confronted by an official and accused of bad train handling.  The engineer blamed it on a dynamiter.  And to further bolster his excuse, he told the official exactly which car it was in the train.  How could the engineer know which car it was?

[tree68]

Euclid

How could the engineer know which car it was?

Because his conductor had walked the train after the UDE and may have figured out which car it was.

[jeffhergert]

Assuming it went every time he set air, you could find the culprit.  It might take a while if it's a long train and towards the back.

The question is, if he knew which car was doing it, why didn't they cut out the car?  (Cutting out the air brakes, not setting out the car.) 

There are a couple of tricks that one can try to keep a known dynamiter from going off.  Experts will say they don't work, but they do seem to work some times.  Enough that I use one of them when the inbound says there is one in the train.

One is to cut out the brakes on the first car behind the engines.  It not responding to the application "slows" the transmission of the signal to cars further back.  (There is a rule that you can't have two consecutive cars with the brakes cut out.  It might not transmit an emergency application signal because it slows the drop in pressure.)  Some say it works with any freight cars, others only with the 89 foot flats/autoracks.

Another trick is before making a brake pipe reduction, go to minimum service on the brake valve and then right back to release/running a couple of times.  Get the air moving just a little and then go to minimum reduction and stay there, increasing the application as needed.  I've had some success with this method. 

I haven't had a train with a dynamiter for quite awhile now.  I'm going to be "annoyed" if all this talk about them has jinxed me.

Jeff 

[rfpjohn]

We used the feed valve method to get around "kickers", as we always called them. This involved running the feed valve setting up about 5 lbs to "unbalance" the train line, then slowly reduce the brake pipe pressure, using the feed valve, to get the desired brake application. Lots of fun! You now had an effectively less-than-fully charged train line to work with and you had to draw off enough air to ensure that they wouldn't start a chain reaction release from the rear! As far as avoiding the kicker, even the feed valve method was only sometimes successful.

On modern locomotives, you can't even change the feed valve setting while in motion.

[Euclid]

My impression in reading the story was that it was a case of bad train handling and the engineer was using an alleged dynamiter as an excuse. I think he told the official something to the effect of "It was an act of God and God was not the engineer."  The gist of the story was that the engineer really put the official in his place.  I wrote to the magazine and asked how the engineer knew which car was the dynamiter.  

I also asked an engineer that I knew, and he said the only way you could find a dynamiter is if there was fresh snow on the ground so you could see the first car to dynamite by the plume of snow.  

How could you find a dynamiter by the conductor walking the train?

[tree68]

Euclid

How could you find a dynamiter by the conductor walking the train?

See Jeff's post.

[Euclid]

tree68

 

 

Euclid

How could you find a dynamiter by the conductor walking the train?

 

 

See Jeff's post.

 

 

I did read Jeff's post.  He explained two methods of preventing a dynamiter from dynamiting.  I want to know how you find a dynamiter by walking the train.  I suppose you could find it if it dynamited right alongside of you.  

[jeffhergert]

tree68

 

Euclid

How could you find a dynamiter by the conductor walking the train?

 

 

See Jeff's post.

 

 

Actually, you would have to do a search for a post, I believe by Ed B., on the procedure. 

Start at the engine and go back 10 cars.  Turn the anglecock.  Have the engineer set air.  If it blows, start car by car to see which one does it.  If not, reopen the anglecock and go back another 10 cars and repeat the process.  (I'm just using 10 cars just for illustrative purposes.  You could even start in the middle, working fore or aft as needed.)  Continue until you find the culprit and then cut out the car.  Or be lucky enough to be standing by the offending car when it goes.  I don't know that I've ever heard anyone taking the time to do this, but it could be done.

Reminds me of an incident I read on a report that happened down south on the railroad.  A train was having multiple UDEs.  I don't know if it was dynamiters or other problems, but they kept going into emergency.  They put the train into a siding and had the car men go over it from engine to EOT.  After a couple of hours inspecting and repairing any appearant leaks they pronounced it good to go.  They let it back out on the main and within a few miles it was in emergency again.

Jeff

[edblysard]

Euclid

My impression in reading the story was that it was a case of bad train handling and the engineer was using an alleged dynamiter as an excuse. I think he told the official something to the effect of "It was an act of God and God was not the engineer."  The gist of the story was that the engineer really put the official in his place.  I wrote to the magazine and asked how the engineer knew which car was the dynamiter.  

I also asked an engineer that I knew, and he said the only way you could find a dynamiter is if there was fresh snow on the ground so you could see the first car to dynamite by the plume of snow.  

How could you find a dynamiter by the conductor walking the train?

 

Your ears..... walk about half way back, and have the engineer do a full service reduction, almost always sets the dynamiter off, and you listen to which way the brakes started setting….if it is  coming from farther back than where you are, you walk more, while the engineer charges the train, and do it over…takes a bit, but your ears can narrow it down pretty quickly to a few cars, then one.

 

[Euclid]

Ed,

Thanks for that explanation.  I can see how you could find the culprit by listening to the sound wave and working your way toward the origin. 

[Wizlish]

edblysard

Your ears..... walk about half way back, and have the engineer do a full service reduction, almost always sets the dynamiter off, and you listen to which way the brakes started setting….if it is coming from farther back than where you are, you walk more, while the engineer charges the train, and do it over…takes a bit, but your ears can narrow it down pretty quickly to a few cars, then one.

Interestingly enough, this has a mathematical name: Newton's Method.

[tree68]

Wizlish

Interestingly enough, this has a mathematical name: Newton's Method.

I learned that as the "half split method," but Newton works, too.

[rfpjohn]

You can also get a rough idea of the kicker's location by how quickly the UDE occurs as you make a service application. If the exhaust has barely started blowing when it dumps, your bad car is near the head end. If it takes a while after initiating the application, it's further back in the train.

[gardendance]

I too am bleary eyed from having tried to read all posts in this thread before commenting. The impression I get is that some folks feel it's possible to have 1 man crews on short trains, and other folks who feel we can't have 1 man crews because North American railroads have long trains.

My thought then is "duh, start running shorter trains if you think one man crews are efficient, but keep multi person crews if you're running long trains."

Another theme I see is that it's very difficult to tell if your train stopped because of a broken knuckle. I can't figure why it's so hard to guess that if one of your cars is 20 or more feet away from the car to which it's supposed to be coupled that it might have had something to do with the coupler.

[BaltACD]

gardendance

Another theme I see is that it's very difficult to tell if your train stopped because of a broken knuckle. I can't figure why it's so hard to guess that if one of your cars is 20 or more feet away from the car to which it's supposed to be coupled that it might have had something to do with the coupler.

 

That is the easy part - it's the mile and a half walk to get there - to find out if it is a broken knuckle, drawbar pulled out, uncoupling with a knuckle open, uncoupling with both knuckles closed, air hose parting between cars, a broken trainline or a derailment.  And if you have HAZMAT in the train, you have the requirement to inspect at least as far as the last HAZMAT in your train.

[Murphy Siding]

jeffhergert

 It's just a UDE or Undesired Emergency.  

Jeff

 

 Well now that's an odd term.  Would there be a desired emergency?

[tree68]

Murphy Siding

Well now that's an odd term.  Would there be a desired emergency?

Within the realm of emergency brake applications, a "desired" application would be one initiated by the engineer, or by the brakeline parting for some reason, like a derailment or pull-apart.  That's how the system is designed to work.  

Granted, having to initiate an emergency application is not desirable, and having a derailment or pull-apart isn't either.  But that's not the context.

As used in this context, a UDE is generally one that results from a problem with a brake valve on a car.  This has been discussed in another current thread...

Such an application is undesired because, well, it's not needed.  Besides, it stops the train, causing all sorts of problems, and requires that the train be inspected (also discussed elsewhere).

[jeffhergert]

A UDE is any time the brake pipe goes to emergency from any source other than the engineer or conductor placing the train in emergency.  If a car's control valve goes to emergency during a service application, while also a UDE it's also what a dynamiter or kicker is.

All emergency applications caused by something in the train is a UDE, but not all UDEs are dynamiters.  At least where I work. 

Actually our rules have some provisions that relieve the crew from making a walking inspection after a UDE, provided brake pipe pressure is being restored at the end of the train.  When any of the following conditions are met an inspection isn't required.  Solid loaded bulk commodity trains.  Train is made up entirely of well cars or five platform articulated spine cars.  Train Speed is above 20 MPH. or Train is less than 5000 tons.

An inspection is required if it's a Key Train or severe slack action was experienced.  Also if when starting excessive power is required to start or keep moving, the train must be stopped and inspected.

Jeff 

 

[gardendance]

Who decided these abbreviations? Maybe it's "unexpected" or "unneeded" and not "undesired".

[dehusman]

gardendance

Who decided these abbreviations? Maybe it's "unexpected" or "unneeded" and not "undesired".

 

The railroads did and its "undesired".

[Euclid]

One point of clarification:

Perhaps the oddness of the phase Undesired Emergency is arising from the mistaken perception that “Emergency” refers to an emergency such as a house on fire or a heart attack.  In that case, the phrase does seem odd because an undesired emergency implies that there are desired emergencies, whereas most emergencies mean trouble, and nobody desires trouble.

But, in the case of a UDE, the term “Emergency” refers only to the train brakes going into the distinctly abnormal operating process of the air brake system that is named “Emergency.”  It is so named because it is intended to produce extra fast stopping which is often required when an actual emergency exists such as a trestle on fire or an impending collision.  But the term “Emergency” in UDE does not refer to any actual emergency that might require quicker stopping.  

In fact most UDEs are not associated with any actual emergency, but they all include the brakes going into the “Emergency” phase of the brake system. 

[Norm48327]

If you think in terms of an undesired emergency application of the brakes it makes sense.

[narig01]

Euclid

Paul, I agree with your point that if you make the couplers stronger, they still must remain as the “weak link.”  So that would require strengthening the whole coupler, draft gear, center sill, etc.  That would be very costly due to all the rolling stock, so I don’t see the industry making such a strength upgrade of the rolling stock.

 

However, I think that the real issue is not the fact that knuckles break, but rather, the time it takes to replace the knuckle.  The basic replacement task that could be completed in ten minutes, but a vast amount of time is chewed up in all the logistics of train movement and manual labor to get the replacement knuckle to the site.

 

We are always told that train delays pose a severe cost to the company.  Needing to spend a couple hours replacing a knuckle seems like a problem that needs fixing.   Knuckle replacement needs to be more nimble. Maybe they could give the job to an outside contractor.  It would be the Nimble Knuckle Service.  

 

 No I do not see this as something that is going to happen but I will throw it out anyway.

 

What you need is an already existing service for mobile repair. What about the existing truck stop chains, like Travel Centers of America ( T/A ) , or Petro.  There are many truck stops as well as independent mechanics. In addition a lot of the tyre shops have the ability to do minor repairs. They are on call 24/7 for the trucking industry.Why could they not be encouraged to branch out for railroads. The biggest problem when things get bad everybody and their brother needs a mechanic. 

Rgds IGN

[Euclid]

Regarding a specialized emergency repair service that I suggested earlier:

Why would anyone assume that it would take a long time to show up, and assume that the fastest way to get the job done is to use the train crew? 

What I was suggesting is a service where speed is the main point.  It would be like a fire department.  It would have the equipment to find the problem and get the knuckle or air hose to it say in less than 15 minutes.  They would do all of the ground work involved with finding the problem and fixing it. 

This service would respond every time there is an “Emergency” application initiated by the train.  While the service would have nothing to repair if the incident was a derailment, they could still respond and determine whether or not it is a derailment.  It might not be a derailment, and if not, then there is value in learning that as quickly as possible, and then getting to the actual problem.  They would scan the entire train from the air.  There would be no walking the train or moving the train.  The train and the crew would stay put while the work is done. 

If train delays are as costly as we are told, then saving time ought to yield enough money to pay the contractor well.  Of course the customer is not going to make the call, and then wait around for some unmotivated worker to come shuffling into the scene, complaining about how much work he has backed up, and how hard it is.  Why does anyone assume that will be the case?  Speed is the point!

The contract service would use a fee structure that would incentivize speed because that is what the railroad is paying for.  They would have tools and parts in a specialized compact, rubber track vehicle that would be carried to the nearest road access point by a truck.  Upon arriving at a crossing, the workers would already be in the track vehicle, the truck ramp would drop, and the track vehicle would depart down the right of way.  They would have detailed information about the line and the nature of travel space alongside of a train.  They would have travel programs in their system from previous reconnaissance.      

I have to believe that I am not the only one thinking about this idea.  If BNSF is talking about conductors following the train with vehicles and using drones, they are half way there already.

[zugmann]

Euclid

I have to believe that I am not the only one thinking about this idea.

 

Talk is cheap.  Go out and start this company (instead of giving ideas away).  Let us know how it works out for you.

[narig01]

One real problem is when things are a mess , think a Montana winter snow storm in 5 below temps, your airline gets torn and blows. How does the repair truck get trackside with 5 feet of snow on the access road? 

      The advantage of an outside service most can bring a lot of tools with them. And if really needed bring say an axle. Well maybe not with truck services they bring tyres, wheels, brake chambers, brake shoes. It all depends on what the customer asks them to fix.

        If railroads did do this the next issue is what level of training and certification would be acceptable. IE is training in the railroad environment needed and who would place the blue flags and be responsible for safety. Etc.

      Details, details. Or lawyers and lawyers. Life is never easy.

The IGN