One man crews: Spread the enthusiasm

[n012944]

Wizlish

 

 

dehusman

This of course Assumes that knuckles are breaking more now than they wer in years past. Do you have any data to support that?

(spoiler alert : overall knuckle failures have decreased over the years)

 

 

But hold on a moment: we've been gabbling for weeks about how trains are getting longer and longer recently as profitability in the post-coal post-China-financial-kerfuffle era begins to slide.  The BaltACD story that led to this exchange mentions an untoward number of near-simultaneous knuckle failures, and I for one would be entirely unsurprised to find a spate of these failures as an 'unanticipated consequence' of running longer trains. 

But yes, I fully expect to see this reflected in statistics.  Once a proper base of data on current operations has made its way into them...

 

 

While Balt's night was horrific, it was just one night.  I have had nights like those, however I would guess it has been well over 2 months since I have had a broken knuckle on my desk.  That includes running plenty of those new 20000 ton, 13000 foot trains.

[Euclid]

edblysard

 

 

BaltACD

There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads.

There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train.  Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. 

Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous.  Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician  protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits. 

 

 

 

 

 And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes.

 

 

The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk.  I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.  

[Paul of Covington]

Euclid

Paul,

What would be accomplished is the time saved by quicker replacement of the knuckle, including getting the knuckle to the break.  Is that really just a small step in the whole process, as you say?  Removing the broken knuckle and installing the new one is a small step.  Assessing the situation, coming up with a plan to get the knuckle to the break, and executing that plan seems like a much larger step.  But let's consider the example cited by BaltACD.  What is the time breakdown for the details of spending 3 hours fixing a broken knuckle.  

 

   I understand from discussions here that spare knuckles are carried on the locomotives.   Can an outside contractor get one there quicker?   Maybe we can impose on one of the professionals here to give us a rough idea of the times involved for the steps in the procedure.

[BaltACD]

Euclid

edblysard

BaltACD

There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads.

There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train.  Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. 

Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous.  Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician  protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits. 

 

 And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes.

The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk.  I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land. 

Dream on buttercup!

[Semper Vaporo]

Ah yes... a 3rd party contractor to replace knuckles... where every employee is the head of his territory for fast service... call us and we will send a Knuckle Head out right away!

[Norm48327]

BaltACD

Dream on buttercup!

[Norm48327]

Euclid

The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk. I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.

Only in model railroading would that stand a chance.

[zugmann]

The places where an on-call service contractor can get to easier than the conductor can are the same places that already existing car inspectors/mechanical personnel can get to.  They do have access to pickup and utility trucks and do go out to perform work on cars that require more skill and tools than a conductor has.  Hell, even most management types carry basic tools and knucles in their trucks if they are smart.

 

For remote places, it will take anybody (unless they drop in from a helicopter) more time to replace a knuckle than it would a decent conductor to do same.  And the longest part is the walking involved.  Even the lowly trainmaster trainee with a Ford Explorer can usually help with that, provided there's some sort of road or trail nearby.  You don't need a multi-thousand dollar service contract.

[edblysard]

Euclid

 

edblysard

 

 

BaltACD

There appear to be a number of posters on recreational pharmacuticals in judging the speed with which a knuckle can be replaced by ANYONE in the size trains that are being operated by today's Class 1 railroads.

There are numerous rule compliance reasons for the length of time taken for the repair as well as the distances that have to be negotiated between crew location and the location of the incident within the train.  Mentioning a broken knuckle is just a easily identifed action - there are any number of other issues that have to be inspected and rectified in the operation of today's trains - hand brakes still applied, sticking air brakes, broken air hoses, leaking trainlines, inspection for defect detector activations etc. etc. etc. 

Talk of 3rd party 'on immediate call' contractors is ludricous.  Who is going to set up a vehicle supplied with 24/7 driver/technician  protection and all the necessary repair items stationed strategically approximately every 50 miles along Main Track routes to provide 'reasonable' response times and charge a price that will return a profit and cover the investments into equipment, manpower, insurance and fringe benefits. 

 

 

 

 

 And I an sure that on Balt's railroad, just like mine, there are roads that run beside every single track, the entire route, to allow the Fast Action Response Team guys to get right there in minutes.

 

 

 

 

 

The One Hour Knuckle Team will use compact, rubber track vehicles that can go anywhere a person can walk.  I suspect that the team will start with a drone flight to quickly locate the break so they can decide how to get there on land.  

 

The more of your postings I read, the more convinced I am that, outside a tiny little piece of track in your city, or the HO layout in your basement, you have never set eyes or feet on a real railroad. 

[Electroliner 1935]

I have seen bridges with no walkways. How does a knuckle get replaced on such a bridge?

[zugmann]

Grab the cars from whichever end you can and drag them off the bridge.

[cx500]

As far as I can see, nobody has explicitly pointed out that one of the significant parts of the delay is simply identifying why the brakes suddenly went into emergency.  And that will require a crew member walking the train. 

There is no point in instantly calling in the local "knuckle repair service" when it turns out that it was an air hose that burst or disconnected, or a derailment.  Maybe it was just a kicker.  An undesired emergency brake application has many possible causes.  In those cases where it is found to be a broken knuckle, usually the fastest way to get it replaced and trains running again is by the train crew already on the scene.  Perhaps if they are lucky there will be other rail employees around (crew or managers) to assist and speed the process.  In most cases, getting an outside contractor on the scene will take at least a couple of hours, by which time the crew can have replaced the knuckle.

John

 

[schlimm]

Prevention?

 

[Deggesty]

cx500

As far as I can see, nobody has explicitly pointed out that one of the significant parts of the delay is simply identifying why the brakes suddenly went into emergency.  And that will require a crew member walking the train. 

There is no point in instantly calling in the local "knuckle repair service" when it turns out that it was an air hose that burst or disconnected, or a derailment.  Maybe it was just a kicker.  An undesired emergency brake application has many possible causes.  In those cases where it is found to be a broken knuckle, usually the fastest way to get it replaced and trains running again is by the train crew already on the scene.  Perhaps if they are lucky there will be other rail employees around (crew or managers) to assist and speed the process.  In most cases, getting an outside contractor on the scene will take at least a couple of hours, by which time the crew can have replaced the knuckle.

John

 

 

John, I am not a railroad man, but it was obvious to me, from the start of this discussion, that before the conductor can carry a replacement knuckle to where it is needed, he needs to know where it is needed. Though it may be that some of the contributors to this topic who have had no hands-on experience had not realized this.

Incidentally, I had the impression that Euclid, with his description of the roads beside tracks and fast, rubber-tired, vehicles was being a bit sarcastic.

I was unaware that most of the knuckle failures were nearer the front end than nearer the rear end--and was not amazed to learn this since, given the absence of DPU's, the draft gear of the forward cars is subject to far more strain than that of the rear cars.

 

[Deggesty]

"Incidentally, I had the impression that Euclid, with his description of the roads beside tracks and fast, rubber-tired, vehicles was being a bit sarcastic." Sorry; I was conflating, from memory, two posts. That's what I get for reading all of today's posts (45) at one sitting.

 

 

[BaltACD]

The cause of 90%+ of broken knuckle is not excessive pulling forces on it.  The primary cause of broken knuckles is unrestrained slack action,  normally it is the instantianeous change from draft to buff forces or vice versa.  That change in forces can easily exceed the strength of even the heavy duty knuckles that are used in unit train service.

The engineers primary duty in moving the size trains that are being handled today is control the slack throughout the train.  When everything works as intended, that can usually be accomplished.  When an engine starts loading erratically, when a kicker or air hose issue cause a UDE all bets are off in being able to control slack.

Slack in a normal coupling -

[Deggesty]

Quoting Wizlish: "This one-hour knuckle service reminds me of the current trouble finding nurses. " I know about that problem; sometimes when I press my call button it seems to take half an hour before a nurse responds. 

[schlimm]

BaltACD

The cause of 90%+ of broken knuckle is not excessive pulling forces on it.  The primary cause of broken knuckles is unrestrained slack action,  normally it is the instantianeous change from draft to buff forces or vice versa.  That change in forces can easily exceed the strength of even the heavy duty knuckles that are used in unit train service.

The engineers primary duty in moving the size trains that are being handled today is control the slack throughout the train.  When everything works as intended, that can usually be accomplished.  When an engine starts loading erratically, when a kicker or air hose issue cause a UDE all bets are off in being able to control slack.

 

Very interesting.  So what, if anything can be done to improve train handling so as to reduce the forces from slack action?

[jeffhergert]

The rule of thumb I've always heard is this.  If the break happens in the first third of the train it's usually, but not always, due to train handling.  If it's further back it's more likely in-train forces.  The longer the train, the harder it is to control slack.  DP has helped a lot, but hasn't eliminated the problem entirely. 

When ever a break happens, the forms filled out (paper or online) ask for the percentage of new break and the location of the broken knuckle.  The older the defect (the more rusty it is) the better for the engineer.  After a broken knuckle or pulled out drawbar, a manager will download the event recorder to determine if it was the engineer's fault or not.  Often, even if the break happened in the first part of the train, the download will show circumstances beyond the engineer's control that played a part.

Jeff  

[edblysard]

In my experience, the major causes of broken knuckles are,(in no particular order) defective from foundry, very rare, in 18 years I have seen one.

Existing defect, hairline crack not found on car inspection and then completely fails in route.

Train handling.

Dynamiters or kickers.

Of the four, the next to last, train handling is the easiest to remedy, most engineers, if they get a knuckle in a particular location, remember the incident and take measures to prevent it next time, engineers who don’t learn from their mistakes get the reputation of being rough and no one wants to work with them.

As for the time spent replacing the knuckle or broken air hose, most of that is spent simply finding the problem.

Once identified, you have the engineer toss off the appropriate parts, knuckle and pin, or hose and wrench, and you button up the last cars air valve and drag yourself up to the parts.

If the car I ride out on is the defect and we have no crossing blocked, I repair the car there, if the car we leave is the bad order, I put all the stuff on the crossover platform and shove back to the car and repair it.

Time wise on a knuckle, 5 minutes, even if it isn’t working and playing well with others.

Air hoses about the same, although often getting the old hose off is a lot more work than you expect, rust can almost weld those things in.

Always do a brake test, not only is it the rule, but if you have a dynamiter, you want to find it now, while the train is standing still.

Getting back to the head end is pretty straightforward….have the engineer toss off a lit fusee, drag yourself up to that point, and if you are not going to shove back over a crossing, have the engineer shove back and pick you up.

In CTC, most dispatchers will suggest this, they want you gone as soon as possible, in ABS, you own the block anyway, you can do pretty much what you need to do at will.

[Mookie]

Comment - we watch on Sunday early am.  Seems like a particular mt coal comes thru and each time, it slows way down and then jerks violently and starts moving a little faster.  I think it is bad train handling, but that is just from my perspective.  I keep thinking there will be a broken something since it jolts those cars pretty hard.  

Ed - dynamiters or kickers - I read something on these, but i need you to explain it so I can understand it better.  I will wait.

[zugmann]

Mookie

Seems like a particular mt coal comes thru and each time, it slows way down and then jerks violently and starts moving a little faster. I think it is bad train handling, but that is just from my perspective.

 

Coming out of dynamic braking and into power.  Proper train handling according to the rules.  Just the slack being stretched out (which sounds a lot worse with empties than it does with loads).

[Euclid]

Dynamiters are cars that happen to have a defect in their air brake control valve which causes them to suddenly, unpredictably put that car into "Emergency" (“dynamites” the brakes) which then puts all the other cars into emergency, thus dynamiting the train.  You can pump up the air and resume, and it might or might not happen again.  The main problem is that a car that does this leaves no trace of problem by which it can be identified and set out.  It may dynamite once and never do it again, or it may dynamite ever few miles. 

I speculate that the term “dynamite” in reference to an “Emergency” application of the brakes refers to the ability for one stick of dynamite to detonate and thereby detonate a second stick nearby, as is done with ditching, for instance.  In the “Emergency” phase of brake application, the same type of propagation happens where each car goes into Emergency in response to the car next to it doing so. 

[dehusman]

Euclid

Dynamiters are cars that happen to have a defect in their air brake control valve which causes them to suddenly, unpredictably put that car into "Emergency".....

It can be any defect which causes the train to go into emergency.  Many times its not a defect in the brake valve, its a defect in the train line, in particular the unions (slip joints) or connections to accomodate movement in the draft gear.

Euclid

I speculate that the term “dynamite” in reference to an “Emergency” application of the brakes refers to the ability for one stick of dynamite to detonate and thereby detonate a second stick nearby

Actually its just that when the train goes in emergency it is a sudden, loud, unexpected "bang".  Dynamite describes the noise.

 

[BaltACD]

Kickers, Dynamiters or whatever term one desires to use for the unintended emergency application of the brakes with no discernible cause - in many cases emanate from the air hose couplings that change their geometrical relations to each other as slack moves throughout the trains - bunching and stretching.  The only hope the crews have of finding the offending leak is if the train stops in the condition that caused the leak and the walking inspection finds where the air is escaping from the trainline and the conductor can take corrective action.

With today's longer cars, the air hose coupling have to deal with a high degree of angularity when these long cars round curves - the mechanism that the car builders have used to support these angularities have created a number of 'Rube Goldberg' sliding trolley air hose apparatus on the ends of long cars - apparatus that can be easily damaged in normal operations and not function as intended by it's designer.

[Euclid]

dehusman

 

 

Euclid

I speculate that the term “dynamite” in reference to an “Emergency” application of the brakes refers to the ability for one stick of dynamite to detonate and thereby detonate a second stick nearby

 

 

Actually its just that when the train goes in emergency it is a sudden, loud, unexpected "bang".  Dynamite describes the noise.

 

 

My guess is that the common term “Dynamiting” when applied to train air brakes comes from the chain reaction propagation that only occurs when the brakes are put into an “Emergency” application.  Specifically one car sets off the next car, unlike a service application where the brake pipe communicates to more than one car at a time. 

Dynamite was very familiar to people in the earlier times, and was capable of sympathetic detonation.  Charges were placed in a way that utilized sympathetic detonation.  When placed in a long line for ditching, one stick detonates the next stick, just like the train brakes where one car dynamites the next. 

The term may also be related to the sound of an “Emergency” application, as you say.  A lot of terms have more than one meaning or origin.  But to me, the sound of a train going into emergency is more like a loud sneeze as opposed to the “boom” of dynamite. 

[Deggesty]

Yesterday, one our posters expressed the thought that perhaps knuckles should be made stronger so that they would hold up better under certain stresses. 

I will ask: How many of you have seen a drawbar lying  between the rails in front of the car that it was in? I have a memory of seeing one (50-60 years ago?), and it was not a pretty sight. I do not know what one weighs, but I am confident that it would take more than two men to handle one drawbar (drawhead, lung, etc.)

[Mookie]

dehusman

 

 

Euclid

Dynamiters are cars that happen to have a defect in their air brake control valve which causes them to suddenly, unpredictably put that car into "Emergency".....

 

 

It can be any defect which causes the train to go into emergency.  Many times its not a defect in the brake valve, its a defect in the train line, in particular the unions (slip joints) or connections to accomodate movement in the draft gear.

 

 

Euclid

I speculate that the term “dynamite” in reference to an “Emergency” application of the brakes refers to the ability for one stick of dynamite to detonate and thereby detonate a second stick nearby

 

 

Actually its just that when the train goes in emergency it is a sudden, loud, unexpected "bang".  Dynamite describes the noise.

 

 

BNSF or KCPL owes me a new pair of knickers.  I had my car door open and "dynamite" went off just around a curve from me.  Thought I bought the farm!

[BaltACD]

Deggesty

Yesterday, one our posters expressed the thought that perhaps knuckles should be made stronger so that they would hold up better under certain stresses. 

I will ask: How many of you have seen a drawbar lying  between the rails in front of the car that it was in? I have a memory of seeing one (50-60 years ago?), and it was not a pretty sight. I do not know what one weighs, but I am confident that it would take more than two men to handle one drawbar (drawhead, lung, etc.)

 

[Deggesty]

BaltACD

 

 

Deggesty

Yesterday, one our posters expressed the thought that perhaps knuckles should be made stronger so that they would hold up better under certain stresses. 

I will ask: How many of you have seen a drawbar lying  between the rails in front of the car that it was in? I have a memory of seeing one (50-60 years ago?), and it was not a pretty sight. I do not know what one weighs, but I am confident that it would take more than two men to handle one drawbar (drawhead, lung, etc.)

 

 

 

 

 

That's cheating! 

I wonder: after the lung is back in place, how long does it take to secure it and make certain the brake line is also secure?