"Correct" side of the industry? (a zugblog)

[zugmann]

Note: this post is going to have some self-reflection and my personal opinions.  You've been warned. Turn away now if you have no interest.

So now I arrive at the next stage of the railroad game (engineer).   I guess the training so far is going OK, but I'm also training on tons of miles of railroad I never worked.  It's a lot to learn in a very short time.  Will I be successful?  Who knows, that time is yet to come.  I've had to give up my nice little job in a small, but busy, yard to go play with the big boys on the main, which was never my specialty. I always felt more at ease in a yard setting.  Which is where I spent most of my career. Plus spending time in hotels again, or on call... ugh...

But now, with all the computer-aided and computer-controlled dispatching software, screens on the engine for optimizing fuel use and trip speeds, I wonder if I'm not working in the buggy whip factory anymore.  Sure, if someone has 10-15 years left, it's no big deal, I'm sure their jobs will last until they are gone.  But I have at least 30 to go.  Will this job be around in 30? 20? 10? 5?

I'm sure in some way or another, someone will have to attend to the engines to hit the alerter and take over if the computer fails, but looking at this stuff first hand, it looks kind of ominous anymore. I know people like to promote the railroad industry as a career, and not a job, but I don't know anymore.   Almost seems like the sensible move is to get to be the one behind those computer screens or in those relay cases, instead of the one in the seat who will probably maybe eventually lose their job.

Maybe it's an early midlife crisis.  Or the realization that the railroad game isn't what I thought it would be after these past several years.  Or maybe the job isn't for me anymore. Yeah, yeah, I've heard the "be happy to have a job, the pay is great" stuff before.  It worked so far, but anymore... I think the want for a quality of life is coming back.  Plus I got to spend a month in a classroom type setting.  While most of the other guys there hated it, I actually liked it.  I missed it.  Kind of felt like a person again. And I think I'm a lot better classroom learner than a hands-on type.  Opposite of most guys out here, it seems.

Another engineer said something that is sticking with me and worrying me more than it probably should:  "All I know how to do is run a train or bag groceries".   I will be perfectly honest.  That scares the hell out of me.  If I don't do this, what do I do?

So here we go.  Think there's a career left to be claimed out here? I know many others have success out here.  Enjoy it, even.  I just haven't gotten that awesome feeling of joy I though I would have  Or maybe I'm tired of being just a cog in the machine. I don't know.

Any other random thoughts out there?

PS. as disorganized as this post was, I guess professional writer is out of the running for me.

PPS. I know there's no golden bullet or silver goose answer out there.  Just typing things out helps me think.

[Murphy Siding]

     Well, there's always sales.....  Said the guy who's been selling lumber for 33 years.


       There's a lot of times where I find myself saying "Man- I've just gotta get away from this line of work before it drives me crazy".  Then I start to think "Yeah-  I'll just go do something else, like.....crap!  This is the only thing I'm qualified to do any more".


      Maybe it's time to do the ol' Ben Franklin analysis.   Make two columns on a piece of paper.  On the left, write all the things you like about your job.  On the right, list all the things that really get you down about your job.  When I  get things all listed in black and white it becomes easier to see patterns.  I recently did this on a biggie.  Starting November 1, I'm going to be the manager at my workplace.  I get to be the prodder, instead of the prodee. If that doesn't work, maybe I'll get a job with the railroad.

[Overmod]

There will ALWAYS be a job for qualified engineers. 

Even in the single-operator systems with 'superconductors' who fly in like James Bond, someone is on the engine.  Even in my systems that use 'telepresence' and fancy things like sensor fusion and intelligent agents to assist in running trains remotely... it's one engineer per train, with full attention.  (Think of all the other systems as aids...)

It's been technically possible to have a 'self-driving train' for over 30 years now.  (More if you count the kind of system demonstrated by the Grand Central shuttle.)  But this assumes only the 'usual' sorts of potential failure, and (as often rehashed by the equinoverberators) you can bet your bottom dollar critical failures will often be unusual.  I don't think anyone sane would replace knowledgeable foreground human attention with... any sort of autonomic or distributed 'solution' -- no matter how advanced it might be technologically.  (It can be argued that flight-director systems are so advanced nowadays that an entire flight can be made automatically ... but will this lead to the actual absence of someone as PIC on a given flight?  I don't think so ... and a train requires at least as much careful adult oversight as an aircraft does to be safe.

Besides, we need a good cohort of future mentors to inspire all the kids who don't know yet they want to be railroaders...  ;-}

[mudchicken]

Murphy: "I get to be the prodder, instead of the proddee.".......NOPE, Think again - now you get prodded from multiple directions............. including a few you hadn't anticipated.

[CShaveRR]

Z, I spent nearly my entire 40-year career working at a job that should have been automated out of existence by the time I hired out.

Yet for a number of personal reasons, I don't envy you.  I would have wanted to be in engine service early in my career, but  the more straws they heap on your back the less I like the sound of it.  

I think Mookie once said that the railroad welcomes you aboard, then starts looking for ways to get rid of you.  They (not necessarily an adversarial "they") have all sorts of new technology, but very little of it actually makes your job easier.  I suspect things like these new cameras that examine your eyes for symptoms of drowsiness will be used against you, not really to make the railroad safer (unless after they can you they hire someone who needs no sleep).  

But maybe, just maybe, your job will be made easier by addressing the issues of crew rest properly.

I probably won't be around at all when you retire, but I suspect that you will have a railroad job for as long as you really want one, and that being in engine service will be just another step in the journey for you.  And until the day that the railroad can predict and deal with everything that could go wrong in and surrounding your territory, you've got a tiny little home in that cab!  Hang in there, Buddy! 

[Convicted One]

zugmann

Another engineer said something that is sticking with me and worrying me more than it probably should:  "All I know how to do is run a train or bag groceries".   I will be perfectly honest.  That scares the hell out of me.  If I don't do this, what do I do?

Any other random thoughts out there?

You are fortunate to have come upon this realization while you still have the asset of youth. You are still marketable.  Based upon the general tone of many of your posts here, you might have an aptitude for law enforcement. See if you can get on the waiting list at a nearby police academy.

Alternately, you might want to consider if it's really all that important to make a sufficient living ($$$) necessary to acquire all all the trinkets and toys we are brainwashed to believe we must have in order to qualify as a "success" in this rat race, or if perhaps you can get by on less, and if so then  find a job you enjoy doing.

It beats the heck out of repeating the phrase "would you like to supersize your order?" 800 times per day.

[edblysard]

I think you are suffering from the road trip blues….learning how to do a new job in an environment that is un-familiar to you.

The classroom was kinda fun because you already know how that works and what is expected.

As for still having a job in 30…I can see you getting bumped to yardmaster or trainmaster easily, trainmaster might be a good fit, although you have a lot of common sense, so that might be a drawback!

But I doubt in the next 30 years engineers will be out of the cab, just like the airline pilot, you will still be there just in case the really unknown happens, plus in the long run, we humans are still cheaper for the carriers.

[schlimm]

1.  When I was 28, the exec VP at the store said to me, "Around the age of 30 most folks should ask themselves, 'Do i really enjoy what I am doing?  Is it a kick?  Do i want to be in this line of work the next 10-30 years?  If the answer is NO, start reflecting on your future."   He was a bright guy (Yale man, but never a snob) and his advice was helpful, to me at least.

2. Plucking some of your thoughts (and that free-flowing style is great for exploring, BTW), you seem somewhat alienated from railroading as a career.   You like learning in the classroom.  You are a good writer. Take a class or two just for fun.   Maybe something will grab you.   

3. 30-ish is not too late to reconsider your direction.   Most folks change careers at least once.   Better now than be a burned out wreck by 40, with a long list of problems.  I've seen plenty of those as a therapist.

Good luck.

[Norm48327]

Zug,

As with any major life changes there is always that little seed of doubt. You can overcome that in short order.

Give it your best and you will succeed and like the job.

[Ulrich]

Technological change affects us all regardless of industry. I think you're right to be concerned about job prospects as an operator of any kind of equipment thirty years out. Sure, trains will most likely still require a body on board... but will that body be a highly skilled and engaged professional, or will he/she be a systems overseer/attendant? Personally I wouldn't stake my career on operating anything... trucks, buses, trains, excavators... etc... all are becoming "smart" and will require less and less skill to operate.  

So what should you do? Well, you've got college and good on the job work experience. I would leverage that... You mentioned previously that you're not that interested in management, but you may want to look at that again. Bottom line: you want work that is interesting and engaging, with a good pay check and, if possible, some measure of security. Management provides all three, and if you think long term you'll make alot more money as a manager in 10 to 15 years than you will make as an engineer. 

Of course there are many industries and career paths,  and no one has a crystal ball. But the last thing you want to do now is to lock yourself into a career with no prospects for significant growth and advancement. You might consider that in 15 or 20 years because at that point your options will be much more limited  as time does close doors. 

Speaking of time, no one says it and you likely will never read it in any of the so called motivational literature, but the key to success in anything is long range thinking. Think hard and plan ahead 10 or even 20 years. Most people don't do that... they think one or two weeks ahead and they arrive at 60 years of age wondering why they haven't advanced or achieved much. If you practice long term thinking you'll be way ahead of the game...way ahead.. 

Apart from leveraging your education and work experience, look for work that is open ended and requires imagination. People who can think and imagine and create verses simply operating a machine generally do much better over the long term. 

[Randy Stahl]

schlimm

  

3. 30-ish is not too late to reconsider your direction.   Most folks change careers at least once.   Better now than be a burned out wreck by 40, with a long list of problems.  I've seen plenty of those as a therapist.

Good luck.

I was a burned out wreck by 40 now I'm nearly 50, I have no clue what comes after burned out wreck?

I didn't take offense to your post though shlimm

 

 

[zugmann]

Thanks all. 

I am not discounting anything anymore, even management, Ulrich.  When I was younger and dumber I did, but I'm older now (at least).  I think my interests in this industry (and by industry, I mean transportation) are going above and beyond that of moving train from A to B.   Nothing wrong with the latter, but I'm getting a 10 year itch for a change (I usually get them in much shorter increments).  I don't know if sitting in the other seat will be enough. I'm also getting older, and living with a cellphone again, or standing 1st out on some extra list for prolonged periods of time is not as enticing as it once was.  I was hoping going into engine service would be enough, but I doubt it.

I've got more than enough toys to last me a good long time (truck out there barely collecting mileage, boxes of paints, model train stuff, art supplies  and anime DVDs just sitting around), and I'm a pretty cheap date, so I don't have too much fancy stuff. (besides my job doesn't pay that much). Nor did I ever get around to buying a house, so I am theoretically, able to move if I have to.  Now do I want to? 

I always had a seed of doubt.  Now it's an Oak tree. Or a Tulip Poplar. I like Tulip Poplars.

I don't think law enforcement is in my career chances. I'm not out of shape too much (still round), but not really in shape either.  And the only departments here hiring usually take veterans (for good reason).  And knowing my personality (or lack thereof), I don't think it'd be a good match.   Nah, I'm more the guy that is buried away in some workshop/office/lab toiling away at some task.

[samfp1943]

CShaveRR

Yet for a number of personal reasons, I don't envy you.  I would have wanted to be in engine service early in my career, but  the more straws they heap on your back the less I like the sound of it.  

Zugmann: It would seem that you have gotten some pretty good and sane advice lined up here !  

   From Carl and others.. WE all wish you well !

 I spent some thirty years in OTR Trucking, and in the Safety end of things.. It was a late in life opportunity that sent me back to College  with a 30 plus year hiatus between my Freshman and Sophomore  years.       It is one of those opportunities, that if you do not take it; the "What If's"  will haunt you for the rest of your life..So you just reach out, and take it...You will always be the better for your knowing you did it, and then new opportunities it provides.  

Just remember your 'friends' around here owe you a pair of "White Waving Gloves!"

[selector]

Don't change horses in mid-stream, Zug...seriously.

It's likely to be better for you in the long run to at least get up onto the other bank, and then keep going.  If the path is parallel to the bank, fine.  If not, take whichever direction appeals to you. 

Life-long learning is something I highly recommend.   It opens doors you didn't know where there while you are stumbling around in the murky 'present'.  That can be specializing, or taking a whole 'nuther field and chewing on it until you have sucked it dry, marrow and all.

-Crandell

[rfpjohn]

Good luck with  your engineer training. I can well appreciate the reservations you have. I'm getting close to the end of my railroad career and it pains me to see the direction our craft is going. I have always loved being an engineer and have prided myself on being safe, efficient and reliable. I feel like the importance of my skills are being diminished with every technological advance.  I fear this is pretty much the story in every industry to some  degree.

For now, at least get your card. It is still a valuable asset. Become intimately familier with the grade profile of your territory. It's one thing that doesn't change overnight. Don't rely on that T.O. screen. Get it in your head! Overconfidence kills, but being constantly afraid is dangerous too.

You seem like a bright fellow (my IQ is somewhere around corn). Maybe management would be a good avenue for you. Perhaps a shortline career would be worth looking at, but be prepaired for a pretty healthy pay cut.

Best of luck, once again.

John

[tree68]

OK, so I'm qualified on a whole 60 or so miles of track, and on a tourist railroad at that (not that there's anything wrong with tourist railroads - how many Class 1 engineers get to run with #6 brakes and manual transistion?).  I'm certainly no expert on how the "big boys" operate.

But I've worked my way up and I enjoy it.  I do miss working with the passengers, something I don't get much of when I'm in the seat, but I get back to that from time to time, too.

A lot of things aren't final destinations, they're stepping stones.  As has been mentioned, maybe there's a career in management waiting for you - or perhaps a "lateral arabesque" into another railroad field, like dispatching (or have you been there already?  I forget.).  

A little discomfort (uncertain schedules) can sometimes be rewarding if you can parlay time and experience into a more desirable direction.

Do that plus/minus thing and stick it out.  If it's looking bad after you're into it, you can seek a new direction.

[Convicted One]

Well, if money is not important, and you don't mind long hours toiling away at a desk, perhaps  a career in publishing is right for you?

[BaltACD]

At 18 I was a Train Order Operator
At 28 I was a Terminal Trainmaster
At 38 I was in Terminal Service Center Management
At 48 I was in the corporations Technology department
At 58 and until today I have been an Assistant Chief Dispatcher

Get your Engineers card and keep it active, keep your Conductors card active (if Possible) - never give away your seniority in any craft in which you hold seniority.

I have no idea how NS seeks out non-contract personnel from rank an file craft members, but keep your eye out for any job posting that you think you would like and apply for it - you may get a interview for it.

There will be interesting jobs in railroading for the NS or other carriers until the time of your retirement.  The operating side of railroading is just one aspect of the corporations, there are many other positions available in sales, pricing, accounting and all those other similar area that are vital to making railroads a profit making business.  While I have had a extensive and varied career on the operating side, the business side is something I was never involved with.

You don't always have to run an engine or switch cars to be a 'real' railroader.

[grinnell]

Finding what makes you happy can be quite a journey.  Over the course of forty years work I’ve been an equipment operator, a technical geek (in several different disciplines), a manager, a staff weenie and an instructor as well as a seemingly perpetual student.  Sometimes a little frog in a big pond, sometimes a big frog in a little pond. Sometimes out at 20 below in the boondocks, sometimes in an office (even a corner office with windows and a secretary). There are pluses and minuses to everything. 

As an operator you can become good at your craft, pretty much control what you do and take pride in the results (putting up with the stuff that flows down hill).  A technical geek has to study, concentrate and acquire a lot of knowledge about a small area; typically concentrating on things rather than people (often being a well paid migrant worker moving from one project, contract or company to another). 

 A manager typically deals with people and money, often with little real control over either, but you usually sink or swim depending on others.  Being a staff weenie is often office politics at a higher level, a good learning experience for a young go-getter, a convenient pasture to put someone who has risen to their level of incompetence. 

There is an old saying ‘those that can do, those that can’t teach’, but teaching can be fun; provided that you know what you are talking about and that your students are motivated.

            These are all different experiences and you never really know what it is like until you try it and give it your best shot at mastering it.  My advice is to stick with it (whatever it is) until you are good at it, earn whatever credentials are available, can honestly say “been there, done that” and then decide whether to move on.

 

Grinnell

[Firelock76]

Zug, there's been plenty of good advice given to you here.  There's nothing I can add except for the wise words Sir Winston Churchill gave to his children on career choices:

Do what you like, but LIKE what you do!

Hard to beat that.

[jeffhergert]

Zug, I agree with Firelock76.  Plenty of good advice and I can't give you any.

I've been railroading professionally for 16 years, the last 10 in engine service.  Throw in a couple years on a tourist railroad before that and a number of years hanging around depots in my youth.  Those early years allowed me the chance to see the inner workings of the railroad.  It's what set me on my journey to become a railroader.  

There have been many changes since my youth.  Some jobs have disappeared completely, others still exist, but have changed in how they are done.  There will always be jobs on the railroad.  I would guess that any earth shattering changes in number of employees will come with protection for those already employed.  I think you will be able to reach retirement on the railroad unless you choose to leave it, either through a buy-out or burn out.  

I hope not through burn out.  I'm not you, I don't get the itch to try something different every so often.  But I do now and then suffer a bit of burn out myself.  There are times I have nothing good to say about the railroad.  (Many times I feel like others have expressed at work, "I like railroading but not the railroad.")  I couldn't print what I think about them. 

Yet, when it comes right down to it, I couldn't ever see myself working anywhere else.  (I mean in the industry.  While I doubt I would ever leave the UP now, I still kick myself for not going to the IAIS about 14 years ago when I had the chance.  They hire off and on, but now it's too late.  Plus they have had changes, while mostly good, have dampened by desire to work there.)  Even though they have and continue to dumb down the job.  Even though they seem to come up with a lot of BS and treat their field employees like children who have to be told every move to make, railroading still beats anything else in my book.

So hang in there.  Don't worry about becoming an engineer or all the gizmos they are coming up with.  After all those gizmos are just tools.  When it comes right down to it, the engineer is still (for the time being) in charge and responsible for train handling.  (We have the Leader system, too.  We are supposed to follow it, consistent with good train handling.  Translation - Follow it unless it tells you to do something stupid that would cause you to break in two.)  As an engineer you'll have good days and bad.  Good running trains and those that aren't.

But I bet you will find satisfaction at the end of the day.  Especially on those days when you have had the train from Hell, blocked by the devil himself.  When you pull up to the crew change without once having torn the train up.  Even though the crew before you got a knuckle and, you later learn, the engineer that relieved you did too.

Also remember, the grass may seem greener on the other side of the fence at times, but often you'll find just as much crab grass over there too.

Jeff    

[Phoebe Vet]

I didn't realize how much I enjoyed my job until I retired.  Every day for a long time I wanted to go to work.  I really missed it.

[MP173]

At age 34 I was bored out of my mind with my job.  I worked for an LTL trucking company and wasnt going anywhere in the organization.  One day I surprised myself and the owner by handing him my letter of resignation.  I took a lower paying job in sales.

Why?  The Sunday night rule.  I was miserable on Sunday nights knowing that I had to return to work at 8am the following morning and be bored out of my mind.  

At age 59 I am at the same company doing the same thing...selling, or actually helping people with their corporate branding (fancy term for selling large format graphics to trucking companies, railroads, convenience stores, and a few other misc users of decals).  The word "Senior" has been added to "Sales Representative" but it is the same job and I love it.  

One day I will get in my car for the last time and make the final sales call but I am in no hurry.  In fact it saddens me a little to think about it.  Yesterday I ran into the man whom I turned in that letter of resignation years ago.  He really screwed up by letting me walk (and not giving me responsibility...I could have made him a lot of money).  When I see him, I thank my lucky stars that on that night in May, 1990 while sitting on the stairs at 1am, I decided to walk away from that job....and into a career.

There is a huge difference between a job and a career.  I mentor young men and women who enter sales in our company and offer them this advice..."spend your 20's figuring out what you want to do the rest of your life."

Including travel and actual work, most people spend about 30% of their week on a vocation.  It should be something that is stimulating, provides growth and self esteem, pays the bills, and makes you want to look forward to Monday mornings.  I still live by the Sunday night rule.

Ed

[jeffhergert]

MP173

  The Sunday night rule.  I was miserable on Sunday nights knowing that I had to return to work at 8am the following morning and be bored out of my mind.  

That's one thing you don't have to worry about working in irregular, unassigned service, whether it be pool or extra board.  Sunday, Saturday, and holidays are just another day on the calendar. 

Jeff  

[Semper Vaporo]

I always said, "Mondays are the best day of the week!"  And after the moans from my co-workers subsided, I'd add; "Because there are a whole 7 days before it is Monday again!  Ya can't say that about Tuesdays, now can ya?"

 

[zardoz]

rfpjohn

You seem like a bright fellow.....Maybe management would be a good avenue for you. 

I don't see the connection......management & intelligence in the same sentence together??  A rare combination.....

[zardoz]

Randy Stahl

schlimm

  

3. 30-ish is not too late to reconsider your direction.   Most folks change careers at least once.   Better now than be a burned out wreck by 40, with a long list of problems.  I've seen plenty of those as a therapist.

Good luck.

I was a burned out wreck by 40 now I'm nearly 50, I have no clue what comes after burned out wreck?

Scrap yard.

[Randy Stahl]

zardoz

rfpjohn

You seem like a bright fellow.....Maybe management would be a good avenue for you. 

I don't see the connection......management & intelligence in the same sentence together??  A rare combination.....

I'm management...I think I fair inteligent

[zardoz]

zugmann

Another engineer said something that is sticking with me and worrying me more than it probably should:  "All I know how to do is run a train or bag groceries".   I will be perfectly honest.  That scares the hell out of me.  If I don't do this, what do I do?

So here we go.  Think there's a career left to be claimed out here? I know many others have success out here.  Enjoy it, even.  I just haven't gotten that awesome feeling of joy I though I would have  Or maybe I'm tired of being just a cog in the machine. I don't know.

There's a lot to be said for the 'security' that longevity at a company usually provides.

However, in some cases, the 'security' can be analogous to the 'security' one has as an inmate of the penal system: sure, you get a roof over your head and three "meals" per day, but few of us would trade the freedom to do what we want for the illusion of security.

[rfpjohn]

Zardoz:

Intellegent management could happen! I've known a few (very), good RFE's and TM's. I like to think there might be a few more on the horizon. Please don't crush my dreams!