The WB LSL and Capitol have gotten past a WB NS merchandise train and a WB intermodal train and are currently overtaking a CPR train on the fly, but are headed toward a clog west of Elkhart.
FIve WB trains at Porter and two at CP462, with two more on the way to the party - and a solid parade of eastbounds.
...its not for lack of trying!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeaton oltmannd Yesterday's debacle is reflected today. Last night's LSL and Capitol EB left Chicago this morning. The Capitol is just east of Toledo and LSL not to Toledo yet. Don, As you know those late starts are mostly due to the Toledo based crews for those jobs on HOS mandated rest for 8 hours after the late arrival of the inbound train. Word I got is that the Toledo crew pool is tight.
oltmannd Yesterday's debacle is reflected today. Last night's LSL and Capitol EB left Chicago this morning. The Capitol is just east of Toledo and LSL not to Toledo yet.
Yesterday's debacle is reflected today. Last night's LSL and Capitol EB left Chicago this morning. The Capitol is just east of Toledo and LSL not to Toledo yet.
Don, As you know those late starts are mostly due to the Toledo based crews for those jobs on HOS mandated rest for 8 hours after the late arrival of the inbound train. Word I got is that the Toledo crew pool is tight.
Amtrak could have used an NS crew with an Amtrak pilot to 21st St. - except NS has none to spare! Apparently, the Capitol ran with an NS crew from Toledo to Pittsburgh about a month ago after the Amtrak crew outlawed enroute.
blue streak 1 oltmannd Today is shaping up about the same as yesterday. Clog WB at Porter and at CP462 again. About the same number of trains tied down hither and yon. Wither bound ? Hither and yon. What are the train counts thru the area ? Is it a mix of slower and faster traffic ? Very different counts on different days ?
oltmannd Today is shaping up about the same as yesterday. Clog WB at Porter and at CP462 again. About the same number of trains tied down hither and yon.
Today is shaping up about the same as yesterday. Clog WB at Porter and at CP462 again. About the same number of trains tied down hither and yon.
Intermodal traffic is generally lighter on weekends, so it give a chance for the railroad to catch it's breath. Didn't work out so well yesterday. The mix doesn't matter all that much. Difference in speed between trains is small. Intemodal is allowed 60, everything else 50 (Amtrak 79), but the way things are bunching up that matters little. Having a train outlaw on the main - or worse yet - tie down is like having a wreck on a freeway at rush hour. Doesn't matter what you're driving or what the speed limit is....
Jay, did they serve the lunch menu on train 30 yesterday?
Fred
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
MP173 NS does in fact call signals, slow orders, etc. on the road channel. It makes for interesting monitoring of the operations of a segment. Balt...that is exactly what is occurring. The hiding spots are all taken and with grade crossings every mile or less, there are only a few ideal parking spots on mainlines. These too are grabbed. From Gary west it is mainly industrial so there are not as many road crossings. Trains tend to be stacked there. Also there are more #3 and #4 tracks in that area.
NS does in fact call signals, slow orders, etc. on the road channel. It makes for interesting monitoring of the operations of a segment.
Balt...that is exactly what is occurring. The hiding spots are all taken and with grade crossings every mile or less, there are only a few ideal parking spots on mainlines. These too are grabbed. From Gary west it is mainly industrial so there are not as many road crossings. Trains tend to be stacked there. Also there are more #3 and #4 tracks in that area.
The Trains Map of the Month for February, 2014 gives great detail.
Ed
Sounds like there is only so much they can do with the apparent limitations and constraints. Hence the near/actual meltdown.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
blue streak 1 BaltACD The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing. For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles). >Balt: At those locations that observed use 1 mile nominal spacing the use of advance approach is almost always used. Does that 6 mile for clear really work any better by giving some more density ? Have not observed any on down grades.
BaltACD The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing. For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles).
The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing. For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles).
>Balt: At those locations that observed use 1 mile nominal spacing the use of advance approach is almost always used. Does that 6 mile for clear really work any better by giving some more density ? Have not observed any on down grades.
You are not looking at it from the Dispatchers perspective in trying to give as many trains as possible (especially Amtrak) Clear signals to operate on. With 1 mile signal spacing, a nominal 9000-10000 foot freight train is actually occupying consecutive signal blocks all the time. Braking distances for freight trains are not calculated on Emergency application - they are calculated on regular service brake applications.
I don't know if NS has their trains call signal indications and block occupancy and station stops on the road radio channel - Mine does. You can hear a overtaking train call a less than Clear signal as they come upon the train to be overtaken.
When it comes to congestion such as NS is experiencing West of Cleveland - remember- there are only so many 'hiding spots' where a 'dead' train can be held without affecting operations. The NS problem is that they have used all the 'hiding spots' and now they have dead and dying trains on Main Tracks and the operating trains have to operate around the dead - the dead trains have in effect created miles of 'single track' that have to be negotiated in one direction and then the other - in some cases these single track segments end up being 30-40-50 miles or more.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Signal spacing is based on braking abilities of the primary user - NS tonnage freight trains. For the NS (or any Class 1 freight carrier) to protect their trains with 1 mile signal spacing there would be multiple forms of less than Clear signal indications on multiple signals behind a train. The 'footprint' for a train to permit operating on Clear signals is nominally 8 miles with nominal 2 mile signal spacing. For a train to receive a Clear signal the train ahead must be at least 2 signal segments ahead with a normal 'Clear-Approach-Stop&Proceed(aka Restricted Proceed)' signal progression (4 miles). The same progression is in effect behind the train. When starting multiple trains that have been stopped at a Control Point, following trains normally, unless specifically instructed, will wait for a least an Approach indication before proceeding. (Approach is 'approach next signal prepared to stop, not exceeding medium speed'; Restricted Proceed is 'Proceed at Restricted Speed (a speed not exceeding 15 MPH prepared to stop short of train or track condition within 1/2 the range of vision).
There are NO QUICK FIXES to capacity issues and first you have to get to the root cause of the issues you are facing. Vis a Vie Chicago - Are connecting carriers handling your traffic in a routine timely manner? Are your own terminals handling their own traffic in a routine timely manner. Do you have sufficient locomotive power to move trains as soon as they are built on schedule? Do you have enough qualified Train and Engine crews to move the traffic when the trains are requested by terminals or crew change points. Do you have enough Train and Engine crews or Remote Control Operators to staff your terminals as necessary? Is the problem a combination of all the problems previously enumerated?
Question ?
What are the average spacing of the signals on this stretch ?. Understand the ~~ spacing over the years has been lengthened to about 2 miles ? If this 2 miles is now prevalent would cutting that in half to ~ 1 mile and its large cost increase capacity or just put en route trains closer but still plug route ?
Would it be better to restore the 3rd MT and maybe 4th MT with current signal spacing ?
Fred Frailey Any food left on 29? I doubt they bring 2 extra meals with them in the diner, and the cafe car has teeny storage. Fred F
Any food left on 29? I doubt they bring 2 extra meals with them in the diner, and the cafe car has teeny storage. Fred F
NKP:Or Amtrak could fly them to Cleveland via Southwest Airlines....oops that wouldnt have worked either.
Tough to get into or out of Chicago these days. You can check out anytime you like, but it is difficult to leave.
Looks like Amt 49 made it into CUS, but 29 is still in Indiana unless the system is not correct.
Does it ever occur to the geniuses at Amtrak that, since the delays to the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited are daily and can be counted upon for the foreseeable future, to use buses to get passengers between Chicago and Cleveland, where the trains could be turned and serviced? I know, I know there are logistical complications, but for a company that wanted to get people to where they were going more or less on time this would be a solution worth doing. After all, what's the cost of losing future passengers in droves every day under the current policy of on-time indifference?
Personal note: I just cancelled an eastbound trip on 30; keeping the 49 trip to Cleveland.
Let those who have ears, hear.
Any food left on 29? I doubt they bring 2 extra meals with them in the diner, and the cafe car has teeny storage.
Fred F
oltmannd Building the comboed train would take track space, an inspection and a brake test. Not sure there is a good place to do it anymore in Toledo.
Building the comboed train would take track space, an inspection and a brake test. Not sure there is a good place to do it anymore in Toledo.
CSSHEGEWISCH The Calumet River Bridge is not the only movable span on this line. There is a movable bridge over the Indiana Harbor Ship Canal in East Chicago and Amtrak's South Branch Bridge would be a factor for Amtrak trains and through trains to the BNSF. Only one span is still in service at Calumet River. Since this is only a double track main, the expense of restoring additional spans to service would be unnecessary unless additional main tracks are added to this line.
The Calumet River Bridge is not the only movable span on this line. There is a movable bridge over the Indiana Harbor Ship Canal in East Chicago and Amtrak's South Branch Bridge would be a factor for Amtrak trains and through trains to the BNSF.
Only one span is still in service at Calumet River. Since this is only a double track main, the expense of restoring additional spans to service would be unnecessary unless additional main tracks are added to this line.
MP17317V ahead is stopping to tie down 31Q which is in a siding somewhere. Crew wasnt able to tie down the train before expiring.
That's happening at CP 505. 31Q is on a siding.
21M has a route into Englewood.
EB Amtrak train as CP513 now
It is going to be a sprint to the finish. AMT29 is now moving at 59 mph with an estimated arrival time of 349pm. My notes indicate the crew will probably expire at 4pm.
17V ahead is stopping to tie down 31Q which is in a siding somewhere. Crew wasnt able to tie down the train before expiring.
blue streak 1 The thought on combining the LSL & Capitols were to combine at Toledo and Chicago those stations being off main tracks which would be one less train until this mess can be cleaned up . If it can be cleaned up ?. Would allow one less Amtrak engineer and in a pinch one less conductor ? .
The thought on combining the LSL & Capitols were to combine at Toledo and Chicago those stations being off main tracks which would be one less train until this mess can be cleaned up . If it can be cleaned up ?. Would allow one less Amtrak engineer and in a pinch one less conductor ? .
21M is on the move. Capital and LSL poking along behind.
MP173 Dispatcher indicated 21M is currently recrewing ahead of 29. Amtrak 29 has only an hour left to work. Oh crap. Now what? These are Amtrak crews....correct?Ed
Dispatcher indicated 21M is currently recrewing ahead of 29.
Amtrak 29 has only an hour left to work. Oh crap. Now what? These are Amtrak crews....correct?Ed
yep. Amtrak has been known to borrow a qualified NS engineer, but.....
At least west of Porter, Amtrak should have a good number of qualified crews.
route is up. Here you go!
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