Trains.com

NS approaching a melt down ?

18021 views
246 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Rockton, IL
  • 4,821 posts
Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 5:21 PM

Today's Trains Newswire reports that the LSL and Capitol for Monday and Today have terminated/turned at Toledo with bus service between there and Chicago.  Trains received no response to questions about tomorrow and future days.  

As much as I would not like having to drag my luggage around, if I were going, I'd rather be moving forward.  

With no indication that the situation will improve shortly, I think Amtrak should continue busing at least until the trains can stay within no more than 3-4 hours late.  Until they can get a lot closer to on time, I'm using different modes.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 1,751 posts
Posted by dakotafred on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 8:19 AM

Elsewhere with late trains:

I've been checking on the Empire Builder in the run-up to a trip of my own, and Sunday's eastbound edition out of Minot departed 4 hours late and lost another 5 hours between there and Chicago, arriving at the latter in the wee hours of morning. Ugh!

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • 1,376 posts
Posted by Fred Frailey on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 6:58 AM

Ed, I'd love to rent a room in your house for a week. You live in the middle of the storm. Just for fun I turned on the Chesterton camera and booted up the NS Chicago Line on ATCS Monitor yesterday while I worked. I swear that hours went by without a train going through Chesterton. Every so often I heard an off-camera whistle from a Michigan Line train. I guess the definition of gridlock is when nothing moves. Felt like that yesterday. I think that Amtrak did the right thing. At some inconvenience to its passengers (a 200-mile bus ride) it delivered them within a semblance of the schedule. Last night the westbound Capitol got decent handling by CSX (21 minutes late arriving Pittsburgh) but is now almost 3 hours late approaching Toledo, where it will terminate. Apparently the wb Lake Shore is already terminated this morning in Toledo. The new normal, indeed.

Fred

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 6:38 AM

Actually four per day and I think that would be a help.  Those are 79mph trains vs 60 and 50 mph trains, plus the highest priority trains on the circuit. 

Yesterday sounded pretty chaotic.  NS was tying trains down everywhere and didnt have enough "wheels" to transport crews back to Elkhart and Chicago.  There was a shortage of van drivers.

CSX seemed very chaotic also and to top it off CN had to issue 7 slow orders to their trains between Griffith and MP 100.

Was this all coincidence or a dominio effect?  Meanwhile the NS NKP seems fluid.

 

Ed

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, October 7, 2014 4:41 AM

Will the cancelling of CL &LSL help any ?  @ 2 less trains each way ?

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 6, 2014 6:59 PM

Convicted One

Isn't this just the culmination of years and years of consolidation?

 

This is the drill: The big boys have been gobbling up the smaller lines for years and years, taking the bridge traffic off and then claiming the acquired lines will no longer support themselves with local business only, so they file for abandonment, and are successful.  Alternate lines that once were available are removed for  the express economic benefit of the lines that are now "victims" of the congestion that resulted  in part from  that consolidation.

 

What better solution than to now  expect the tax payers to fund enhancements to add capacity to the remaining overloaded infrastructure.

 

There are so many lines that once bypassed/avoided  Chicago that are no more, because they were choked off through the above process.  The result is your "meltdown"

 

First I have to say I am not entirely clear what the status of those former trunk lines is: downgraded, sold off to short lines or abandoned.  If the feds get involved in upgrading an abandoned RoW, they should simply take it through eminent domain and use it as a dedicated, passenger-only HSR route linking the east coast with the midwest with a viable service not subject to meltdowns due to short-sighted freight railroad strategies.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Monday, October 6, 2014 6:36 PM

Isn't this just the culmination of years and years of consolidation?

 

This is the drill: The big boys have been gobbling up the smaller lines for years and years, taking the bridge traffic off and then claiming the acquired lines will no longer support themselves with local business only, so they file for abandonment, and are successful.  Alternate lines that once were available are removed for  the express economic benefit of the lines that are now "victims" of the congestion that resulted  in part from  that consolidation.

 

What better solution than to now  expect the tax payers to fund enhancements to add capacity to the remaining overloaded infrastructure.

 

There are so many lines that once bypassed/avoided  Chicago that are no more, because they were choked off through the above process.  The result is your "meltdown"

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 6, 2014 12:06 PM

Dakguy201
 
MP173

2.  If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time.  They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment.

Ed

 

 

Last night's Lake Shore departed Chicago at 2:45am, some 5 hours 15 minutes late.  It was last reported at Elkhart, more than 8 hours late.   The Capitol is listed as a service disruption, so I don't know if it even ran.

 

All too often, when I have enquired, online, as to how a particular train is running, I have seen the message concerning a service disruption, and I have taken it to indicate that there was a disruption in the service that provides the information, and not that the there was a disruption in the performance of the train.

Johnny

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, October 6, 2014 12:04 PM

If these disruptions, whatever the cause, continue much longer, much of Amtrak's LD operation's future becomes doubtful, whether as transportation or a land cruise.   Lotsa fun being stuck on a train somewhere for many hours with no food, etc. and unable to even get off.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 6, 2014 11:44 AM

Dakguy201

 

 
MP173

2.  If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time.  They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment.

Ed

 

 

Last night's Lake Shore departed Chicago at 2:45am, some 5 hours 15 minutes late.  It was last reported at Elkhart, more than 8 hours late.   The Capitol is listed as a service disruption, so I don't know if it even ran.

 

Both WB trains vanished from Amtrak's map at Toledo this morning.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Monday, October 6, 2014 11:24 AM

blue streak 1

A question for BALT  and Oltmann.

In the era of DPU operations could NS cut number of trains and save crews by taking 2 trains to same destination and combine them using DPU technology ?.  That train would certainly need to be able to not stop and block grade crossings.  On this route are there some train length limits that preclude some combinations ?  Realize that at present the RR would have to combine enough at same time to be able to keep route fluid.

 

 

You can run ridiculously long trains between Chicago and Elkart w/o DPU.  It's really flat.  And, has been pointed out - there are already issues getting them in and out of yards.

 

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: South Dakota
  • 1,592 posts
Posted by Dakguy201 on Monday, October 6, 2014 7:39 AM

MP173

2.  If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time.  They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment.

Ed

 

Last night's Lake Shore departed Chicago at 2:45am, some 5 hours 15 minutes late.  It was last reported at Elkhart, more than 8 hours late.   The Capitol is listed as a service disruption, so I don't know if it even ran.

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Monday, October 6, 2014 7:26 AM

Not sure if this was NS's fault yesterday but Amtrak yesterday at 540pm (about 10 hours late) was instructed to violate the hours of service rules and run a few miles and then hold for a recrew.

A couple of points...

1.  How in the world are they feeding people if the trains are that late?

2.  If the trainset is to be turned in Chicago, how are they maintaining any resemblence to normal timekeeping at this point in time.  They are almost to the point of annulling a train movement for a day and starting over, unless Amtrak has extra equipment.

Ed

 

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 5, 2014 1:13 PM

Unconfirmed report is that NS is gaining  ( gained ? ) control of the Englewood diamond from METRA ?  Most METRA trains reported ( unconfirmed ) now  being routed onto the Englewood flyover.  If so then this may be one link in a chain to reduce delays on the NS route ?  If so METRA will have to wait on NS & Amtrak ? 

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 5, 2014 9:03 AM

BaltACD

.  Length can be a double edged sword..

 
Balt:  that was a concern here as well. 
 
Further thought came up with one possible way ?   A train "A" originates somewhere.  It has a 2 + 1 DPU set up with a single DPU on the end ( or some other combination ).  At a combining location a train "B" that is just powered on the front approaches train "A".  The engineer of  "A" makes a brake set of his train and the DPU.  "B" couples to the DPU of "A" checks his joint, sets "B" brakes to the same values as  "A"  and removes reverser..  Then someone connects "B"s barake line , main reservoir, & indendependent air lines.  27 point cable is attached as well.
 Then  "A"s engineer syncronizes to "B"s EOT.  "A" engineer commands DPU to idle fast or maybe even move to check  "B" loco(s) is working with the DPU.
A brake set and release of "B"s train and EOT is verified.  Then off the coombined goes. 
The only question of this is a complete brake inspection required ?
At some termination location this combined train can be quickly separated.  If at yard "B" just pulls into another receiving track.
 
Two head end only trains or two DPU trains would take significantly longer to initialize ?
 
Comments anyone ?
 
 
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, October 5, 2014 4:33 AM

I don't know what the NS train length restriction is, if any.  However, with the terrain from Elkhart to Chicago I am sure they are running maximum length trains and DPU is not necessary for their movement.  The down side to extremely long trains is that terminal facilities that were built in a bygone era can rarely handle these trains on a single track.  When trains have to used multiple tracks to be yarded or dispatched they must block the leads for extended periods of time thus preventing other movements from using those leads.  Length can be a double edged sword..

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 5, 2014 2:28 AM

A question for BALT  and Oltmann.

In the era of DPU operations could NS cut number of trains and save crews by taking 2 trains to same destination and combine them using DPU technology ?.  That train would certainly need to be able to not stop and block grade crossings.  On this route are there some train length limits that preclude some combinations ?  Realize that at present the RR would have to combine enough at same time to be able to keep route fluid.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 8:39 PM

It's looking like P050 - the scenic tour through Indiana, the Ohio River Valley and Western Virginia - has become the 'reliable' route between Chicago and DC, even if the scheduled trip is longer.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Valparaiso, In
  • 5,921 posts
Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, October 1, 2014 7:46 AM

Looks like another tough day for Amtrak.  

Train #48 shows a 930pm departure from Chicago, yet left South Bend at 626am...which is 6:30 late.  Currently it is west of Toledo and is tracking 6:14 late.

Train #29 is west of Waterloo, In and is "only" 1:44 late.  However, current speed is 0mph.

Train #49 is due into Waterloo in 3 minutes and is 1:14 late.  

Here in NW Indiana it appears to be another challenging day for NS and Amtrak.  33E has recrewed at MP479 with 23K right behind it.  Ahead past 482 train 31M is tying down it's train.  It sounds as if work has been cancelled today at the new crossover at 479.  There are "a number of short time eastbounds".

I have work to do, but the drama is intriguing.

Ed

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Defiance Ohio
  • 13,320 posts
Posted by JoeKoh on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:36 PM

ACTS is also becoming obsolite as railroads go with satalite commuinication. We call the area between east Deshler and Galetea the "black hole".Csx has redone the folkston Ga area as others have told me.Getting back to NS they had 2 trains waiting in Archbold and no local came to town that I could tell.

stay safe

Joe

Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").

 

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • 1,376 posts
Posted by Fred Frailey on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 1:52 PM

ATCS Monitor is a Yahoo Group. Go there and ask for membership. The learning curve is steep, be forewarned.

Fred

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 12:37 PM

Any chance that non subscribers could access ATCS ?

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 12:22 PM

...and all the way to Amtrak at 21st St. LSL is following

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 11:57 AM

Have route and signals all the way to Englewood.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 11:12 AM

Both trains completed zig-zag at 466...have route though Porter.  Looks like a relatively clean ride the rest of the way.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 10:57 AM

oltmannd

oltmannd

Both trains are departing Elkhart following a couple intermodal trains ahead.  Looks like the IM trains are going to join the pile at Porter (now four trains deep), but once an EB intermodal gets by, there's a chance the two Amtrak trains can scoot by Porter on track 2.  We'll see.

Nope.  Routed into the clog at Porter.  That'll cost'em an hour each, at least.

Well,  yep!  The Capitol is going to back from one to two at CP466.  I suspect the LSL will follow suit as it's being held short of CP466.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 10:18 AM

oltmannd

Both trains are departing Elkhart following a couple intermodal trains ahead.  Looks like the IM trains are going to join the pile at Porter (now four trains deep), but once an EB intermodal gets by, there's a chance the two Amtrak trains can scoot by Porter on track 2.  We'll see.

Nope.  Routed into the clog at Porter.  That'll cost'em an hour each, at least.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 9:49 AM

Both trains are departing Elkhart following a couple intermodal trains ahead.  Looks like the IM trains are going to join the pile at Porter (now four trains deep), but once an EB intermodal gets by, there's a chance the two Amtrak trains can scoot by Porter on track 2.  We'll see.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 9:43 AM

oltmannd

The WB LSL and Capitol have gotten past a WB NS merchandise train and a WB intermodal train and are currently overtaking a CPR train on the fly, but are headed toward a clog west of Elkhart.

FIve WB trains at Porter and two at CP462, with two more on the way to the party - and a solid parade of eastbounds.    ...its not for lack of trying!

 
Don thanks for the updates.  A running commentary certainly helps all to understand the jams that are occurring. 
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Rockton, IL
  • 4,821 posts
Posted by jeaton on Tuesday, September 30, 2014 9:23 AM

Fred Frailey

Jay, did they serve the lunch menu on train 30 yesterday?

Fred

 No they did not.  The only thing for passengers late in the day were the snack packages and water.  I think the lounge attendant sold out everything except booze.  Got to go.  Off to St Louis today.  See you there?

"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy