Yesterday's episode of Mythbusters featured an interesting myth about weather you could actually reach your destination quicker by driving rather than flying if traveling 400 miles or fewer. It turns out that flying is faster but only by a few minutes. That got me wondering about weather it would be faster take the train when traveling the same distance.
While flying can get you from one city to the other faster, you still have to drive to the airport, park, check your bags, and get through security. That adds at least two hours to the flight time. Then there's the actual flight. When you land, you then have to claim your bags and rent a car.
By contrast, you simply get right on the train with little hassle, so there's less time added onto the journey. You also go from downtown to downtown, although renting a car may still be needed.
What do you guys think? When you take all those fctors into account, would taking the train actually be faster if traveling less than 400 miles?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
You're assuming that the traveler is already downtown where a passenger train is available for boarding, and haven't taken into account how the traveler gets to the station, or whether a passenger train is even available to the intended destination.
In many parts of the world, there are regularly scheduled passenger trains, but in the U.S. Amtrak is the only option, and provides limited service.
cacole You're assuming that the traveler is already downtown where a passenger train is available for boarding, and haven't taken into account how the traveler gets to the station, or whether a passenger train is even available to the intended destination. In many parts of the world, there are regularly scheduled passenger trains, but in the U.S. Amtrak is the only option, and provides limited service.
Well, let's narrow the parameter to say Boston to New York or San Francisco to Los Angeles. Both of those have regular passenger train service from downtown to downtown.
Depends on the average speed of train, how far airports are from downtowns and time to get there.
Also you are supposed to be at the airport two hours before flight time in most larger US airports for domestic flights, three for international (which seems ridiculous).
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I'd have to drive 3-1/2-4 hours to the nearest Amtrak station at Omaha, Fargo, or St. Cloud, to get on in the middle of the night- provided the train was on time. My wife looked at taking Amtrak to visit a friend in Chicago. It would involve a 3-1/2 hour drive to St. Cloud, Minnesota in the middle of the night, a train ride from St. Cloud to Chicago. A wait at the station in Chicago, and then a 1 hour or so, train ride out to Hanover Park, followed by a 15 minute drive to our friend's house. That didn't compare favorably to an 8 hour drive to Hanover Park.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Chicago to St. Louis is gradually getting a 110 mph top speed. for the 284 mile run, 5 hr, 20-30 min. [and improving].
Flying takes one hour, plus 2 hours at O'Hare security, etc. and between 25 min. and 1:15 from the Loop to O'Hare (depending on traffic and cab vs. the L). Add another 10 minutes from gate to cab and another 20+ minutes from Lambert to downtown St. Louis, and the total is between 4:00 and 4:45 flying (assuming good connections on both ends) with a lot more hassles and changes of transport vehicles + cab expenses. So a almost draw...for now. As the more of the ROW to StL is upgraded to 110mph, the train will become the clear choice for downtown to downtown travelers. Suburb to suburb changes the equation.
When flying I figure in three hours to get to the airport,,to check in and go through security, and one hour to get off the plane and to pick-up my bags. So that's four hours right off the bat that I wouldn't have if I were to drive. In four hours I can cover 240 miles, leaving 160 miles or about three hours to go. So on 400 miles its really a draw... but driving would be alot cheaper and much more convenient. Taking the train would be slower as there again you're checking in and out, albeit with somewhat less cumbersome security screening. I find that driving is faster and cheaper than air or rail,, all factors considered, for trips under 1000 miles.
In my case the last time I did a long-distance trip it was from my home in Richmond VA to my parents home in Estero FL. Factoring in all the time wasters involving air travel i.e. trip to the airport, being there two hours before the flight, the transfer in Atlanta, (by the way you can't fly anywhere on Delta from Richmond without an Atlanta transfer, even if you're flying from Richmond to Norfolk), then the time involving bag retrieval and rent-a-car pickup in Fort Myers, to say nothing of the expense, I decided to drive, considering a whole day was shot in the traveling anyway.
So, driving door to door, 940 miles, took me fifteen and a half hours. Since that's what the 20th Century Limited did New York to Chicago back in the glory days I figured I did quite well.
I used to love to fly, but it's no fun anymore.
As regards flying, the old saw among those of us in aviation, "Time to spare, go by air" applies. There are lots of variables that wouldn't apply to either the train or driving. Departure city to destination city direct by air is an almost never thing. Delays clearing security, delays departing the airport, en route and weather delays are common. As Firelock mentioned, you will likely have to change planes at a hub.
The train and driving are surely more direct to destination even though both modes are slower.
Norm
GP-9_Man11786What do you guys think? When you take all those fctors into account, would taking the train actually be faster if traveling less than 400 miles?
That's the niche! But the devil's in the details. The first/last mile is a problem. If your trip is downtown to downtown and the train stations are downtown, then the train's a good deal. But, if your city is like Atlanta or Dallas where your likely destination is out on the perimeter somewhere, then all bets are off.
If the origin and destination cities have good transit, that helps, too.
From here - suburban Atlanta - if I have a 400 mile trip, I'm driving all tthe time. It's 45 minutes from my house to the airport, 90 minutes more through the TSA cha-cha machine to the gate and then the flight. Amtrak? It's 35 minutes to Atlanta or 45 minutes to Gainesville for the once a day Crescent. The Crescent's running times to toward New Orleans are abysmally slow everywhere (<50 mph) and not real great up to Charlotte - although above there they get better.
But, who wants to get on a train in Atlanta at 8PM to arrive in Charlotte at 1:30 AM when I can drive there in 3-1/2 hours easy with no first/last mile issues?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
For short distances driving is just too convenient, unless you want to avoid traffic and parking problems in big cities. Public transportation is generally too much of a hassle with waiting in line to check in and boarding and getting to and from the airport/train station.. It's hard to beat just getting into your car which is waiting for you in your driveway and just going. I would rather drive 900 miles in one sitting than hassle with airports and train stations.
Let's try Charlotte to Atlanta. USAirways has 14 flights a day. Delta has 11 flights a day. Southwest Airlines has 3 flights a day.
Amtrak has one train a day and it comes through Charlotte at 2:30 AM.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Dropping one's behind in the comfy leather seat of a Cadillac Escalade and driving still beats all those departure times. Put it on cruise and forget about the airport!
Phoebe Vet Let's try Charlotte to Atlanta. USAirways has 14 flights a day. Delta has 11 flights a day. Southwest Airlines has 3 flights a day. Amtrak has one train a day and it comes through Charlotte at 2:30 AM.
There are so many variables in this issue that one hardly knows where to begin, so I'll just share a few thoughts.
Although it varies from airport to airport, the amount of time required to get through security has been reduced significantly. Moreover, frequent air travelers can enroll in the TSA's priority clearance program. I believe the fee is $85, but it is worth it if one fly's frequently.
I made six trips on Southwest and/or United between Austin and San Diego, Newark, and San Francisco over the past twelve months. The average time to clear security at each airport averaged less than 10 minutes. The average time required to clear security at the nation's major airports is available on-line.
Many if not most business person's carry their luggage onto the plane. Once it has landed, they are off it and on their way in a jiffy. If they need a rental car, they usually book it in advance and, if they are a preferred customer, with the appropriate app on their smart phone, they can go straight to a predesignated area, pick-up the keys, and be on their way in short order.
One of the biggest advantages of taking the train, which I do when I am in southern California, the NEC, etc. is stress reduction. It is also the reason that I frequently take the train to Dallas. Getting on the train is easy. So too is getting there and getting off the train. I always use public transit in Dallas, San Francisco, San Diego, LAX, New York, etc. Full disclosure: Whenever it is available, I always select business class.
The biggest downside to public transport can be found frequently in your fellow passengers. On a recent trip from LAX to San Diego, a lawyer shouted into her cell phone about her day in court. A guy sitting opposite her at the same table shouted into his cell phone about a big business deal that he was working on. And they kept it up most of the way from LAX to San Diego. I am a reader. It is annoying to have someone shouting into a cell phone when trying to read. And I was in business class, which supposedly attracts a better class of customers.
In my car I can set the temperature to my liking, tune the radio to a classical music station, hook my bicycle on the rack at the back of the car, stop when I want, and not have to listen to anyone shouting into a cell phone.
Convenience, flexibility, and privacy, as well as cost in many instances, are the reasons that most Americans, except for long trips and/or frequent business trips in congested corridors, are likely to prefer driving over taking public transport.
Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft.
You guys are acting like I am declaring the airlines the winner. I am not. In fact, I haven't boarded a commercial airliner since they turned the airport terminal into an East German checkpoint replica. I merely pointed out that between all those available flights and an interstate highway that directly connects the two cities, Amtrak is not really a convenient alternative.
You hit the nail on the head with the word "convenient". It ain't about speed...its more about convenience. Amtrak will never be faster than the airplane or the car, but they could really amp things up by being the CONVENIENT option. Have a service to pick people up from their homes for example.. make pre-booking a snap via computer.. make it so that all the traveller has to do is to stand in her driveway with bags in hand.. all the details are looked after. A 2:00 am departure is fine! What else am I going to do at that hour that I can't do once I'm on board the train?
Ulrich For short distances driving is just too convenient, unless you want to avoid traffic and parking problems in big cities. Public transportation is generally too much of a hassle with waiting in line to check in and boarding and getting to and from the airport/train station.. It's hard to beat just getting into your car which is waiting for you in your driveway and just going. I would rather drive 900 miles in one sitting than hassle with airports and train stations.
I concede the point. First, you gotta want to ride the train. For me, there's enough inconvenience to riding Amtrak -- must drive 100 miles to board -- that for most LD trips, I drive. Once a year, I take a train tour that satisfies me infinitely more, even as it doesn't help much to stave off Amtrak's critics.
But I think we all know this already. The corridor advocates on here have a point. But, as long as I'm not on one of those corridors but still want to ride occasionally -- and I have a voice with my congressional delegation -- we'll keep doing LD.
No "apples to oranges" stipulations have appeared, but surely they're M.I.A.
To try a Golden Delicious to Rome Beauty comparison: Downtown to Downtown, business person....LA to SF....<400 miles...
The trip is start to finish in a taxi. Those rides count. LAX and Burbank are freeway trips away, Burbank, 30 minutes, LAX, net an hour and half; LAUPS is not, 20 minutes from downtown...to me It's still LAUPT.
Taxi time to assure 2 hours ahead of take-off for security examination, at the air terminals, or a half mile hike to the High Speed Train and climb, or walk, on.
Flight time and train time....50 minutes versus 180 minutes for an HST.
Arrive; wait for your baggage to come down, grab it, get a bus to your "Long Term" parking lot and start your drive to the next hotel, or get a rental car, no big or long deal....or a taxi.45 minutes to your hotel.
Your train arrives, grab your bag from the shelf, then walk to a cab stand and ride uptown to your hotel....15 minutes.
Put those trips together. train or plane? Add the times for planes and HST trains.
So many other scenarios exist.....
Ulrich Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft.
Nothing to do with trains, planes, or automobiles but Ulrichs comment reminds me of a story.
A British officer was home on leave from the Western Front during World War One. At his club a friend asked "So, what's it like at the front, old chap?" "Simply awful, dear boy!" was the reply. "The noise! And the PEOPLE!"
And Ulrich, you nailed it when you mentioned people's lack of hygene. I once sat for three hours on a plane in front of some guy with coughing jags and the worst case of buffalo fart breath I've ever experienced. I was ready to ask the flight attendant for a parachute so I could get some fresh air and then walk the rest of the way home.
Sam1I made six trips on Southwest and/or United between Austin and San Diego, Newark, and San Francisco over the past twelve months. The average time to clear security at each airport averaged less than 10 minutes. The average time required to clear security at the nation's major airports is available on-line.
About half the time in ATL it's less than 10 minutes. The other half, it's 10-20 minutes. Still, from the time you arrive at the airport to the time you're at the gate is in the 45 minutes to one hour range and the airline want you at the gate 30 minutes before they close the door.
At the other end, if you're in the back half of the plane, it can take quite a while for the 100 people ahead of you to wrangle their carry-on and get off the plane.
Sam1In my car I can set the temperature to my liking, tune the radio to a classical music station, hook my bicycle on the rack at the back of the car, stop when I want, and not have to listen to anyone shouting into a cell phone.
Recently drove from Phila to Atlanta on a Sat and Sun. It wasn't quite that pleasant. On a Saturday afternoon, I-95 south was moving, but packed. No chance for cruise control all the way down to Frederickburg VA. Lost about 15 minutes due to traffic congestion. Not a fun drive - and this wasn't even a peak time. Sunday, Fredericksburg to Richmond, was not easy, neither was Durham to Greensboro. No cruise control there, either. Greensboro NC to Anderson SC was tolerable. Anderson to Atlanta was okay except for a wreck with a 15 mile backup that we detoured around.
It's easy to see why the NEC works so well and why NEC extensions are a good "next place" to invest.
My 19 yr old son just took the Crescent from Atlanta to Phila. They seated him next to a 20-something male who:
Was high on something he smoked before boarding.
Had a small dog in his backpack.
Tried to snuggle in the middle of the night.
He complained to the attendant about the "personal space" issue. The attendant just laughed.
2 1/2 hours by train between Metropark, NJ and Union Station, Washington, D.C. vs 1 hour flight time between Newark.
we took the train for a one day business trip.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
oltmannd Ulrich Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft. My 19 yr old son just took the Crescent from Atlanta to Phila. They seated him next to a 20-something male who: Was high on something he smoked before boarding. Had a small dog in his backpack. Tried to snuggle in the middle of the night. He complained to the attendant about the "personal space" issue. The attendant just laughed.
When I was young, at least in Pennsylvania, each county had a county home. It was for people who did not have it all together. Unfortunately, most if not all of them were closed.
Based on my experiences in coach on the Texas Eagle, which I only do between Taylor and Dallas, it appears that some of the folks who would have been housed in the country home are riding coach class on Amtrak's long distance trains.
Having said that, I have met some very nice people in the coaches on the Texas Eagle. Unfortunately, it is the nut cases that stick in my mind.
Traffic congestion is a major issue, and it is likely to get worse. In Texas congestion along the I-35 corridor gets worse year by year. If there is a wreck traffic backs up for miles, and it can take a seeming long time to get through.
Whether improved train service along the I-35 corridor in Texas would entice more people out of their cars is unknown. The transportation planners and policy makers apparently believe the answer is to improve I-35, which they are doing. They are rebuilding it from the Mexican to Oklahoma boarders and beyond. Getting people out of their cars and onto public transport in Texas will be a major challenge.
I always sit at the back of the plane, and I have been known to grumble about the time it takes to get off it. However, when I actually check the time required to exit the plane, it usually takes no more than five minutes after the door is opened. Of course, getting off a 747 takes a bit longer than getting off a 737. The same phenomenon occurs when I am stuck in a traffic jam. It always seems longer than it is.
When I lived in DC, I often traveled to New York (Manhattan or Brooklyn) By automobile it took about six hours due to congestion. The shuttle from National to LaGuardia took one hour before 9/11 and TSA but getting to and from the airports took two hours, at least that was what you had to plan. Amtrak took just under four hurs. More than once I took part in a "race", one by air one by train.no one won more than half the time. Since TSA entered the picture by air, and ground congestion has gotten worse at both airports and Amtrack has speede up, there's no contest. The proof of the pudding is that the number of people taking the Shuttle is down and the number of people taking the train is up. Distance from NYP to WAS is 225 miles.
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