dubch87 I have a pretty good example. My wife is from northeast of Philadelphia (Bucks County), which is a little less than 450 miles from where we live in Raleigh. We use air, car, and rail to get there. Car: Oh, I-95, I hate you. Stop for gas and food in Virginia and a second stop for the restroom (I have to go more than she does, or she's a good liar). At least 7.5-8 hours at 65-75 mph with stops and likely traffic congestion. Add $40 if you get caught by a Maryland work zone speed camera. Pros: Origin to destination, no baggage restrictions, cheapestCons: I-95, fatigue, traffic, tolls, I-95 Air: US Airways offers direct flights from RDU to PHL that take around 1.5 hour. We're about ten minutes from the airport, and we're usually through security in 20 minutes tops, but still get there about 1.5 hour early. She/we then take SEPTA from PHL to Bucks County, which is around 1 hr 20 min. Sometimes we'll miss the train by a few minutes and have to wait half an hour at the airport, and have to transfer downtown if it's an afternoon train. The SEPTA station is about ten minutes from her parents' house, and they pick us up. Altogether, 4.5-5 hours. Pros: FastestCons: Most Expensive, subject to delays Rail: We're around 15 minutes from either Cary or Raleigh stations with daylight service from both the Carolinian and Silver Star. With the northern segment of the former SAL line abandoned, Amtrak follows the NCRR southeast from Raleigh to Selma before turning northeast on the CSX A line, adding a lot of mileage and time. The trip is scheduled at 9 hours and 15 minutes. The in-laws are closer to Trenton than Philadelphia, so they cross the river and pick us up there for an additional 20 minutes of trip time. We have experienced delays before, but have made up time north and southbound and arrived within 30 minutes of schedule. Pros: Stretch, look out the windowCons: Longest trip, almost as expensive as air, subject to delays When we pick each method of transportation: Car: Both of us traveling during non-holiday times and not on the weekend.Air: When wife travels alone or tickets are cheap enough.Rail: Both of us are visiting around holidays when the highways and airports are overcrowded. If/when the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor is completed and the SAL (S) Line is restored, rail travel time will be comparable or faster than car.
I have a pretty good example. My wife is from northeast of Philadelphia (Bucks County), which is a little less than 450 miles from where we live in Raleigh. We use air, car, and rail to get there.
Car: Oh, I-95, I hate you. Stop for gas and food in Virginia and a second stop for the restroom (I have to go more than she does, or she's a good liar). At least 7.5-8 hours at 65-75 mph with stops and likely traffic congestion. Add $40 if you get caught by a Maryland work zone speed camera.
Pros: Origin to destination, no baggage restrictions, cheapestCons: I-95, fatigue, traffic, tolls, I-95
Air: US Airways offers direct flights from RDU to PHL that take around 1.5 hour. We're about ten minutes from the airport, and we're usually through security in 20 minutes tops, but still get there about 1.5 hour early. She/we then take SEPTA from PHL to Bucks County, which is around 1 hr 20 min. Sometimes we'll miss the train by a few minutes and have to wait half an hour at the airport, and have to transfer downtown if it's an afternoon train. The SEPTA station is about ten minutes from her parents' house, and they pick us up. Altogether, 4.5-5 hours.
Pros: FastestCons: Most Expensive, subject to delays
Rail: We're around 15 minutes from either Cary or Raleigh stations with daylight service from both the Carolinian and Silver Star. With the northern segment of the former SAL line abandoned, Amtrak follows the NCRR southeast from Raleigh to Selma before turning northeast on the CSX A line, adding a lot of mileage and time. The trip is scheduled at 9 hours and 15 minutes. The in-laws are closer to Trenton than Philadelphia, so they cross the river and pick us up there for an additional 20 minutes of trip time. We have experienced delays before, but have made up time north and southbound and arrived within 30 minutes of schedule.
Pros: Stretch, look out the windowCons: Longest trip, almost as expensive as air, subject to delays
When we pick each method of transportation:
Car: Both of us traveling during non-holiday times and not on the weekend.Air: When wife travels alone or tickets are cheap enough.Rail: Both of us are visiting around holidays when the highways and airports are overcrowded.
If/when the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor is completed and the SAL (S) Line is restored, rail travel time will be comparable or faster than car.
This is an excellent analysis of the options available to you and your partner. The best options depend on a variety of circumstances, i.e. location, number of people traveling, distance, physical and mental health, temperament, transport at destination, etc. One thing seems clear. One size does not fit all.
A bit off-topic, but Oltmannd mentioned traffic problems on I-95 on a trip from Philly to Atlanta. I'm assuming he had most of his troubles in the Northern Virginia area. There's road construction going on there and will be for the forseeable future so I-95 from Quantico north to Alexandria is a mess, both ways.
So if you're heading south this is what I'd do. Take I-95 south to Route 896 in Delaware which will lead you to Route 301 south.Typically 301's traffic is pretty light except for some traffic light slowdowns in Bowie and Upper Marlboro MD which can be annoying but are tolerable. The only toll you'll pay southbound is on the Potomac River bridge which is $6.00. Continue south on 301 then get on Route 207 in the Bowling Green area. This will take you straight to I-95 at Ruther Glen.
This route takes you completely away from Baltimore and Washington traffic and you also avoid that construction area I mentioned. From Ruther Glen south there's usually no serious problems. Heading north just reverse what I said.
Assuming things were perfect on I-95 the 301 route would usually add only a half-hour to a northbound or southbound trip. The trouble is, things ain't perfect on I-95 anymore. So I avoid 95 totally now, in Northern Virginia anyway.
Lady Firestorm and I just did this last week heading to a wedding in Collegeville PA, so it works.
I made several trips the past year from NW Indiana to Oklahoma City, flying 2x and driving 4 times. The mileage was 830 miles and quite frankly the car trip was just fine. You gotta figure a full day of travel either way. Car gives me flexibility to stop and see customers on the way and the unreliability of air service this winter was the deciding factor.
Ed
dakotafred Phoebe Vet Instrument rated commercial pilot in airplane and helicopter. All I need is the aircraft. And heaven help us when one of these cowboys in the sky loses it and crashes into one of our houses (again). The air will become more interesting yet with the addition of drones. The end of them, I think, will be the first collision with a commercial jetliner. Before that, good ol' boys will have a lot of fun shooting at moving targets instead of road signs.
Phoebe Vet Instrument rated commercial pilot in airplane and helicopter. All I need is the aircraft.
Instrument rated commercial pilot in airplane and helicopter. All I need is the aircraft.
At the risk of getting off topic, the media's "If it bleeds, it leads" philosophy makes general aviation seem much worse than it truly is. They pick on aircraft incidents purely for shock value.
Norm
Norm48327 You guy should consider getting a pilot's license and buying a small plane. I regularly fly with a friend, and in 3 1/2 hours can fly from the Detroit area to Richmond, VA; no TSA hassles and don't have to be at the airport hours ahead of flight time.
You guy should consider getting a pilot's license and buying a small plane. I regularly fly with a friend, and in 3 1/2 hours can fly from the Detroit area to Richmond, VA; no TSA hassles and don't have to be at the airport hours ahead of flight time.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Norm48327You guy should consider getting a pilot's license and buying a small plane. I regularly fly with a friend, and in 3 1/2 hours can fly from the Detroit area to Richmond, VA; no TSA hassles and don't have to be at the airport hours ahead of flight time.
Nice, but pretty expensive, isn't it?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
blue streak 1 IMO the auto was able to displace the RRs because many persons could go faster by auto than RR. ?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
ramrod When I lived in DC, I often traveled to New York (Manhattan or Brooklyn) By automobile it took about six hours due to congestion. The shuttle from National to LaGuardia took one hour before 9/11 and TSA but getting to and from the airports took two hours, at least that was what you had to plan. Amtrak took just under four hurs. More than once I took part in a "race", one by air one by train.no one won more than half the time. Since TSA entered the picture by air, and ground congestion has gotten worse at both airports and Amtrack has speede up, there's no contest. The proof of the pudding is that the number of people taking the Shuttle is down and the number of people taking the train is up. Distance from NYP to WAS is 225 miles.
When I lived in DC, I often traveled to New York (Manhattan or Brooklyn) By automobile it took about six hours due to congestion. The shuttle from National to LaGuardia took one hour before 9/11 and TSA but getting to and from the airports took two hours, at least that was what you had to plan. Amtrak took just under four hurs. More than once I took part in a "race", one by air one by train.no one won more than half the time. Since TSA entered the picture by air, and ground congestion has gotten worse at both airports and Amtrack has speede up, there's no contest. The proof of the pudding is that the number of people taking the Shuttle is down and the number of people taking the train is up. Distance from NYP to WAS is 225 miles.
Downtown Washington, D.C. to Manhattan, at least for most points, is quicker by train, especially the Acela, than by air. But what is the better option for someone going to Westchester County or Long Island?
Amtrak touts the fact that it carries more passengers between NYC and Washington than commercial air. But what percentage of the total travel market, i.e. train, air, bus, and motor vehicle, does it have?
According to the NY Times, "BoltBus and MegaBus, two downtown, curbside services in the Northeast, have increased ridership since they began operating in 2008. The buses generally make the New York-to-Washington run in four and a half hours and offer free Wi-Fi. Tickets range from $1 to $40, far less than Amtrak or the airlines.
I have taken the BoltBus from Baltimore to NYC. It is not the same as riding the Acela, but it sure is easier on the pocketbook. The ride was comfortable and on-time.
Research suggests that they are eating into Amtrak’s market share. According to a study by the Chaddick Institute for Metropolitan Development at DePaul University, 34 percent of bus riders said they would have taken Amtrak if not for the bus."
My guess is that the majority of people travelling between NYC and Washington, as well as the intermediate locations, opt for their personal vehicle.
Traffic congestion is a major issue, and it is likely to get worse. In Texas congestion along the I-35 corridor gets worse year by year. If there is a wreck traffic backs up for miles, and it can take a seeming long time to get through.
Whether improved train service along the I-35 corridor in Texas would entice more people out of their cars is unknown. The transportation planners and policy makers apparently believe the answer is to improve I-35, which they are doing. They are rebuilding it from the Mexican to Oklahoma boarders and beyond. Getting people out of their cars and onto public transport in Texas will be a major challenge.
I always sit at the back of the plane, and I have been known to grumble about the time it takes to get off it. However, when I actually check the time required to exit the plane, it usually takes no more than five minutes after the door is opened. Of course, getting off a 747 takes a bit longer than getting off a 737. The same phenomenon occurs when I am stuck in a traffic jam. It always seems longer than it is.
oltmannd Ulrich Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft. My 19 yr old son just took the Crescent from Atlanta to Phila. They seated him next to a 20-something male who: Was high on something he smoked before boarding. Had a small dog in his backpack. Tried to snuggle in the middle of the night. He complained to the attendant about the "personal space" issue. The attendant just laughed.
Ulrich Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft.
Let's not forget about the elephant in the room, peoples' hygiene habits or lack therof. When you travel on any public conveyance your enjoyment is often much diminished by the bad habits of others, be it on the bus, train or aircraft.
My 19 yr old son just took the Crescent from Atlanta to Phila. They seated him next to a 20-something male who:
Was high on something he smoked before boarding.
Had a small dog in his backpack.
Tried to snuggle in the middle of the night.
He complained to the attendant about the "personal space" issue. The attendant just laughed.
When I was young, at least in Pennsylvania, each county had a county home. It was for people who did not have it all together. Unfortunately, most if not all of them were closed.
Based on my experiences in coach on the Texas Eagle, which I only do between Taylor and Dallas, it appears that some of the folks who would have been housed in the country home are riding coach class on Amtrak's long distance trains.
Having said that, I have met some very nice people in the coaches on the Texas Eagle. Unfortunately, it is the nut cases that stick in my mind.
2 1/2 hours by train between Metropark, NJ and Union Station, Washington, D.C. vs 1 hour flight time between Newark.
we took the train for a one day business trip.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Sam1I made six trips on Southwest and/or United between Austin and San Diego, Newark, and San Francisco over the past twelve months. The average time to clear security at each airport averaged less than 10 minutes. The average time required to clear security at the nation's major airports is available on-line.
About half the time in ATL it's less than 10 minutes. The other half, it's 10-20 minutes. Still, from the time you arrive at the airport to the time you're at the gate is in the 45 minutes to one hour range and the airline want you at the gate 30 minutes before they close the door.
At the other end, if you're in the back half of the plane, it can take quite a while for the 100 people ahead of you to wrangle their carry-on and get off the plane.
Sam1In my car I can set the temperature to my liking, tune the radio to a classical music station, hook my bicycle on the rack at the back of the car, stop when I want, and not have to listen to anyone shouting into a cell phone.
Recently drove from Phila to Atlanta on a Sat and Sun. It wasn't quite that pleasant. On a Saturday afternoon, I-95 south was moving, but packed. No chance for cruise control all the way down to Frederickburg VA. Lost about 15 minutes due to traffic congestion. Not a fun drive - and this wasn't even a peak time. Sunday, Fredericksburg to Richmond, was not easy, neither was Durham to Greensboro. No cruise control there, either. Greensboro NC to Anderson SC was tolerable. Anderson to Atlanta was okay except for a wreck with a 15 mile backup that we detoured around.
It's easy to see why the NEC works so well and why NEC extensions are a good "next place" to invest.
Nothing to do with trains, planes, or automobiles but Ulrichs comment reminds me of a story.
A British officer was home on leave from the Western Front during World War One. At his club a friend asked "So, what's it like at the front, old chap?" "Simply awful, dear boy!" was the reply. "The noise! And the PEOPLE!"
And Ulrich, you nailed it when you mentioned people's lack of hygene. I once sat for three hours on a plane in front of some guy with coughing jags and the worst case of buffalo fart breath I've ever experienced. I was ready to ask the flight attendant for a parachute so I could get some fresh air and then walk the rest of the way home.
No "apples to oranges" stipulations have appeared, but surely they're M.I.A.
To try a Golden Delicious to Rome Beauty comparison: Downtown to Downtown, business person....LA to SF....<400 miles...
The trip is start to finish in a taxi. Those rides count. LAX and Burbank are freeway trips away, Burbank, 30 minutes, LAX, net an hour and half; LAUPS is not, 20 minutes from downtown...to me It's still LAUPT.
Taxi time to assure 2 hours ahead of take-off for security examination, at the air terminals, or a half mile hike to the High Speed Train and climb, or walk, on.
Flight time and train time....50 minutes versus 180 minutes for an HST.
Arrive; wait for your baggage to come down, grab it, get a bus to your "Long Term" parking lot and start your drive to the next hotel, or get a rental car, no big or long deal....or a taxi.45 minutes to your hotel.
Your train arrives, grab your bag from the shelf, then walk to a cab stand and ride uptown to your hotel....15 minutes.
Put those trips together. train or plane? Add the times for planes and HST trains.
So many other scenarios exist.....
Ulrich For short distances driving is just too convenient, unless you want to avoid traffic and parking problems in big cities. Public transportation is generally too much of a hassle with waiting in line to check in and boarding and getting to and from the airport/train station.. It's hard to beat just getting into your car which is waiting for you in your driveway and just going. I would rather drive 900 miles in one sitting than hassle with airports and train stations.
For short distances driving is just too convenient, unless you want to avoid traffic and parking problems in big cities. Public transportation is generally too much of a hassle with waiting in line to check in and boarding and getting to and from the airport/train station.. It's hard to beat just getting into your car which is waiting for you in your driveway and just going. I would rather drive 900 miles in one sitting than hassle with airports and train stations.
I concede the point. First, you gotta want to ride the train. For me, there's enough inconvenience to riding Amtrak -- must drive 100 miles to board -- that for most LD trips, I drive. Once a year, I take a train tour that satisfies me infinitely more, even as it doesn't help much to stave off Amtrak's critics.
But I think we all know this already. The corridor advocates on here have a point. But, as long as I'm not on one of those corridors but still want to ride occasionally -- and I have a voice with my congressional delegation -- we'll keep doing LD.
You hit the nail on the head with the word "convenient". It ain't about speed...its more about convenience. Amtrak will never be faster than the airplane or the car, but they could really amp things up by being the CONVENIENT option. Have a service to pick people up from their homes for example.. make pre-booking a snap via computer.. make it so that all the traveller has to do is to stand in her driveway with bags in hand.. all the details are looked after. A 2:00 am departure is fine! What else am I going to do at that hour that I can't do once I'm on board the train?
You guys are acting like I am declaring the airlines the winner. I am not. In fact, I haven't boarded a commercial airliner since they turned the airport terminal into an East German checkpoint replica. I merely pointed out that between all those available flights and an interstate highway that directly connects the two cities, Amtrak is not really a convenient alternative.
Phoebe Vet Let's try Charlotte to Atlanta. USAirways has 14 flights a day. Delta has 11 flights a day. Southwest Airlines has 3 flights a day. Amtrak has one train a day and it comes through Charlotte at 2:30 AM.
Let's try Charlotte to Atlanta. USAirways has 14 flights a day. Delta has 11 flights a day. Southwest Airlines has 3 flights a day.
Amtrak has one train a day and it comes through Charlotte at 2:30 AM.
There are so many variables in this issue that one hardly knows where to begin, so I'll just share a few thoughts.
Although it varies from airport to airport, the amount of time required to get through security has been reduced significantly. Moreover, frequent air travelers can enroll in the TSA's priority clearance program. I believe the fee is $85, but it is worth it if one fly's frequently.
I made six trips on Southwest and/or United between Austin and San Diego, Newark, and San Francisco over the past twelve months. The average time to clear security at each airport averaged less than 10 minutes. The average time required to clear security at the nation's major airports is available on-line.
Many if not most business person's carry their luggage onto the plane. Once it has landed, they are off it and on their way in a jiffy. If they need a rental car, they usually book it in advance and, if they are a preferred customer, with the appropriate app on their smart phone, they can go straight to a predesignated area, pick-up the keys, and be on their way in short order.
One of the biggest advantages of taking the train, which I do when I am in southern California, the NEC, etc. is stress reduction. It is also the reason that I frequently take the train to Dallas. Getting on the train is easy. So too is getting there and getting off the train. I always use public transit in Dallas, San Francisco, San Diego, LAX, New York, etc. Full disclosure: Whenever it is available, I always select business class.
The biggest downside to public transport can be found frequently in your fellow passengers. On a recent trip from LAX to San Diego, a lawyer shouted into her cell phone about her day in court. A guy sitting opposite her at the same table shouted into his cell phone about a big business deal that he was working on. And they kept it up most of the way from LAX to San Diego. I am a reader. It is annoying to have someone shouting into a cell phone when trying to read. And I was in business class, which supposedly attracts a better class of customers.
In my car I can set the temperature to my liking, tune the radio to a classical music station, hook my bicycle on the rack at the back of the car, stop when I want, and not have to listen to anyone shouting into a cell phone.
Convenience, flexibility, and privacy, as well as cost in many instances, are the reasons that most Americans, except for long trips and/or frequent business trips in congested corridors, are likely to prefer driving over taking public transport.
Dropping one's behind in the comfy leather seat of a Cadillac Escalade and driving still beats all those departure times. Put it on cruise and forget about the airport!
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