America's railroads: The "poster boy" for graffiti vandalism.

[Ulrich]

Generally the folks who have done well in business (like RJ Corman) will tell you that image matters a lot.

[dehusman]

Euclid

How many shipments do you think U.P. would lose if they just ran their equipment in red oxide paint with no name or logos? 

Since the UP's paint scheme for boxcars IS oxide red with only required lettering and a very small UP shield, and their carloadings are going up, I would have to say that it would make no difference whatsoever. 

[Euclid]

Murphy Siding

     How many shipments would they lose?  Zero.  What color were the grain cars that hauled the corn that made your cornflakes this morning?

Yes, I agree, but that is my point.  They would not lose any shipments, so why do they care about paint schemes, logos, brand, and image?  There must be a reason.  These things cost a lot of money.  If destroying them with graffiti did not matter, why would they spend the money on them in the first place?

[Ulrich]

On the whole graffiti has probably hurt the industry... but we will never know to what extent because no one keeps track of phone calls NOT made or business deals not consummated. I can tell you from first hand experience that customers do notice appearances. They correlate appearance with capability.. they figure if your equipment looks ratty and marked up then your service must be ratty too. That may not be fair or true, but that's how its perceived. Maybe things are different on the rail side as shippers generally don't have that much choice.

[Murphy Siding]

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[Euclid]

Murphy Siding

In an average year, how many cars do you think are rejected by shippers and receivers because they have graffiti on the side?

Graffiti is not a good thing, but in the grand scheme of running something as big as a railroad, isn't it more of a fairly small mole hill, compared to a lot of big mountains?

A corporate brand and image works in big ways that go far beyond simple business logistics.  How many shipments do you think U.P. would lose if they just ran their equipment in red oxide paint with no name or logos?  Yet they will spend lots of money taking anybody to court who tampers with those intangible symbols.  Why? 

[Murphy Siding]

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[Ulrich]

I sure wish them success with that. They should get together with their peers and turn this into an industry wide initiative, maybe through the AAR. Another industry class act, RJ Corman, famously stated that "you can't be any good if you don't look good". Certainly, from a marketing perspective that's true; appearance and presentation are as important as substance.

[jimnorton]

One of the best run and proud railroads in the country is Pennsylvania's Reading and Northern.  Recently, a "war on graffiti" was announced by Andy Mueller the line''s president.   That's the only instance of an effort mounted by a railroad nationwide to discourage graffiti from their freight equipment.  RBMN wants to look in good order and impressive in the public's eye.  Maybe it will catch on.

[jimnorton]

With the railroads emerging in both tonnage and the public's eye one would think there would be some pride associated with that.  But the message is lost. 

Recently, I served on a local municipal board.  When the topic of the town's railroad came up, inevitably, graffiti was mentioned.  More recently, I shared some nicely detailed railroad models with non-rail friends.  Both times I was told, "you outta put some graffiti on there."  

What we can gather from this is that the vandals are getting their message out far and away better than the railroads.  Imagine that.

[Eddie Sand]

It's ironic, because at the height of the railroads' financial miseries back in the mid-70;s, boxcars never looked better thanks to all the leasing and short-line (pseudo-)ownership.

[schlimm]

henry6

I believe Europe and other countries dealt with this issue years ago. I know here at home the NYC MTA subways did. It is just catching on in the US now? Yeah, we are falling far behind the rest of the world in so many things anymore.

I have seen a lot of graffiti on rail cars and RoWs as well as some buildings in Europe.  If anything, it may be worse than it was 10-20 years ago.  

[Murphy Siding]

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[Ulrich]

Too bad....he had talent. 

[wanswheel]

NY Post: Graffiti legend dies in subway third-rail electrocution

[Murphy Siding]

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[Euclid]

henry6

And I don't believe that spray paint artists have to or actually do steal it...maybe it's chic in some circles, but some of the artists are sincere in their art just not sensible about their canvass.

You don' think someone who will go out and do $10,000 worth of defacement property damage would steal a can of paint?

[Deggesty]

I have no access to numbers, but I have the impression that there are far more legitimate users of spray paint than there are taggers. To limit sales to licensed contractors could cause a great outcry on the part of legitimate users.

[Ulrich]

edblysard

Ulrich

I don't know... maybe its all stolen... but that's alot of stolen paint.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that alot of it comes from the big box stores. 

The selling of spray paint to minors is illegal in the US, not because of the tagging concern, but the “huffing” concern.

Under 18 years of age, you can’t buy it.

edblysard

Ulrich

I don't know... maybe its all stolen... but that's alot of stolen paint.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that alot of it comes from the big box stores. 

The selling of spray paint to minors is illegal in the US, not because of the tagging concern, but the “huffing” concern.

Under 18 years of age, you can’t buy it.

Well, that's certainly a good thing.. I didn't know that. Maybe they need to further curtail the sale of spray paint somehow by selling only to licensed contractors via a tightly controlled supply chain network. Making the stuff hard to get would at least reduce the vandalism. 

[edblysard]

Ulrich

I don't know... maybe its all stolen... but that's alot of stolen paint.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that alot of it comes from the big box stores. 

The selling of spray paint to minors is illegal in the US, not because of the tagging concern, but the “huffing” concern.

Under 18 years of age, you can’t buy it.

[Ulrich]

Murphy Siding

Ulrich

From me. If I return equipment that has been marked up or damaged or vandalized then I get to pay for it. They don't care how it happened... it was under my care and control. 

   How would that scenario change, if the trailer in question was hauled by several trucking firms right after another, and spent various amounts of time at shippers' and receivers' docks and parking areas, truck stops, shoulders of little traveled highways, and parked on the street in some shady rough parts of many cities and towns?

Wouldn't change at all. If I signed the lease agreement then I'm responsible for the equipment regardless. Personally I wouldn't give up care and control of any vehicle unless I too had an agreement with the other party to pay for damages. I generally stay away from leases and rentals.. I've paid for too many scuff boards, dents, and scratches over the years.  I guess rail cars are treated differently.. maybe the rail lease companies accept vandalism... the truck lease places sure don't.  

[Murphy Siding]

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[Murphy Siding]

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[Deggesty]

A few years ago, I found what looked like a gang's mark for its territory on my garbage can. I covered it with spray paint (I tried to match the color of the can itself, but did not quite get a true match), and the villain did not re-mark the can.

I do not remember all of the details, but I believe that it is extremely difficult for a minor to buy spray paint in Salt Lake County. Of course, not all of these overly-proud "artists" are minors.

[Euclid]

henry6

... but some of the artists are sincere in their art just not sensible about their canvass.

Maybe so, but a big part of the “art” is the resentment of others having property.  There is a big “stick-in-the-eye” component in graffiti. 

[Ulrich]

And a very nice compliment in there for older women too. I know a few who in their youth got  saddled with useless lugs who don't work but seem to have time for all kinds of destructive behavior. Tax the paint and cut out welfare to adult able bodied males. 

[henry6]

I believe Europe and other countries dealt with this issue years ago. I know here at home the NYC MTA subways did. It is just catching on in the US now? Yeah, we are falling far behind the rest of the world in so many things anymore. And I don't believe that spray paint artists have to or actually do steal it...maybe it's chic in some circles, but some of the artists are sincere in their art just not sensible about their canvass.

[Euclid]

Here it says that taggers lose points if they buy the paint instead of stealing it.

http://www.sellwoodwestmoreland.com/docs/online/Understanding%20graffiti%20and%20taggers.pdf

[Ulrich]

I don't know... maybe its all stolen... but that's alot of stolen paint.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that alot of it comes from the big box stores. 

[BaltACD]

Ulrich

Maybe the best way to approach it is to increase the fines and to control the sale of spray paint somehow or to put a hefty tax on it that is then used to pay for clean up. 

I have serious doubts that the paint used in tagging has been bought.