Inward Facing Cameras

[flmiller]

>The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations.  The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera.  The cameras could be fake and still make things safer. <

I really don't think the presence of a camera, fake or not, will keep someone awake if they are sleep-deprived or otherwise 'conscious-impaired', whatever the cause, nor do I think there is evidence that it will. Losing consciousness, for whatever reason, generally isn't a willful act, and a camera won't make any difference.  And would a camera affect the actions of an employee prior to their shift?  Not likely, since they didn't intend to fall asleep/lose consciousness anyway, knowing the consequences.

And, yes, I used 'reliably' in my statement above on purpose. If a system is to be employed in a mission-critical situation, it must above all else, be reliable.  If it isn't, why use it?

[Euclid]

Norm48327

Euclid

The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations.  The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera.  The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.

IOW, management by intimidation. Not the best way to go.

Intimidation?  People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors.  They welcome the recognition.

Here is an example of the Pointing and Calling system used to increase train safety in Japan.  If we had this system in use for U.S. railroads, could we rely on the crew faithfully executing the actions without the sense of supervisor observance provided by cameras?

Does this guy seem intimidated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LmdUz3rOQU

[Murphy Siding]

flmiller

>Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.<

I would like an explanation of how an inward facing CAMERA could trigger the brakes and/or cut the power reliably, please.  I assume you mean this to function reliably without human intervention in any and all 'nodding-off' scenarios.  Just a picture and technology.

  Simple, the folks back in mission control that are watching all the train crews in all the locomotives in all the country the same time could simply have called the engineer on her cell phone when they perceived she was nodding off.

[Norm48327]

Euclid

The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations.  The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera.  The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.

IOW, management by intimidation. Not the best way to go.

[Euclid]

The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations.  The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera.  The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.

[Semper Vaporo]

If you had left out the word "reliably", it could explain it.  There were/are some experiments being done in association with facial recognition to detect a drowsy automobile or truck driver.  But the last I heard about it, was that it was not "reliable" to the point where it could be used to stop a vehicle if the driver were falling asleep or going into a catatonic state.

First thoughts about inward facing cameras says it is a good idea, but really thinking about the purpose and what can be implemented says that the best possible result is that it might provide evidence that, lacking evidence to the contrary, the engineer and conductor were either asleep or not asleep.

I have read some accident reports, where the crew, who died and thus unable to testify in their own defense, were blamed for the accident due to sleeping or being otherwise inattentive.  It is always possible that they were innocent and that could have been proved if there had been a camera showing their actions prior to the accident. But I am not sure there have been, or will be, enough accidents to justify the expense (both in terms of hardware costs AND labor/management relations AND job satisfaction).

I also don't see there being a direct video link from ALL trains to some central location (or even multiple locations) where someone is "watching" for inattentive crew.  Not only would the video links be unreliable enough to negate any positive actions, but just how reliable would the crew watching the crew be?

 

 

[flmiller]

>Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.<

I would like an explanation of how an inward facing CAMERA could trigger the brakes and/or cut the power reliably, please.  I assume you mean this to function reliably without human intervention in any and all 'nodding-off' scenarios.  Just a picture and technology.

[henry6]

BaltACD

schlimm

I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated.  Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision.  Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors.  Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation.  The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences.  Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep.  Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.

How do you tie a camera to brakes and power?  Time to get real.

Yes, BaltACD, you have struck on the real delusion of inward cameras: they are not safety features or tools but merely surveillance measures for after the fact act of placing blame.  When you know what happened, it is too late to take immediate action.  

[BaltACD]

schlimm

I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated.  Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision.  Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors.  Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation.  The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences.  Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep.  Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.

How do you tie a camera to brakes and power?  Time to get real.

[schlimm]

I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated.  Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision.  Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors.  Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation.  The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences.  Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep.  Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.

[henry6]

We have lost trust in this country.  Sometime, somewhere along the line, we have to put trust in our employees, our bosses, ourselves.  If that trust is not there, there is no trust and no loyalty, just suspicions. In the cab of a locomotive or a semi on the interstate, there has to be this two way trust otherwise Big Brother becomes Big Bother and intrudes on both the trust and ability to perform.  This is an unneeded stress added to the work place that pits management against labor which in turn creates even more stress. You at least don't make labor feel like a criminal or a 4 year old who has to be watched carefully.   We should work more for PTC, traffic and speed controls, deadman features, and response alerters rather than watching an engineer scratching his crotch or picking his nose.  Really, if you itch and fear scratching will give you demerits or loss of the job, you won't do it until it is too late and there could be worse consequences.  I prefer another crewman visiting the engineer as often as practicable and observing and being able to take action than looking at a video hours, days, or even weeks later.  Of course if you have 100 trains running at any given moment, no one could be watching in them moment anyway.   Cameras are a publicity stunt not a safety measure...management and politicians feel good about putting the camera's there but really have not accomplished any measure of safety. What everyone wants is a fortune teller in the cab and we know how well they work.

[Phoebe Vet]

It is not often that you and I disagree, Henry, and I am as concerned as anyone in here about the Orwellian direction our society is traveling.  That said, I don't believe the camera as I described it would be detrimental to the crew unless their actions caused the accident.  Most of the time it would do the opposite by showing that the accident was beyond your control.

I also disagree with the underlying claim that management doesn't have the right to know what you are doing when you are in command of the moving train.

[henry6]

What is a camera staring you in the face but a second by second supervision.  It is not a tool because it is so invasive and constant.  An accident investigation can measure every breath, eye blinks, twitch, or turn of the head without knowing why it happened but use it as evidence against you.  IF this is a tool, it is an assasin's tool, not an investigative tool.  And it cannot prevent accidents either unless one watching the picture can jump in and heroically alter the conditions at that moment.  This is the miro management's voyeurism with no moral or safety value.

[Euclid]

Inward cameras are not going to be the solution to the sleep problem.  That problem will have its own solution that will make the worries about inward cameras seem like a walk in the woods. 

[Phoebe Vet]

That's not what you heard from me, Henry.  I offered only a tool for accident investigations, not for day to day supervision.

[crhostler61]

Ah...so the railroads are taking the Orwellian plunge now.

I've been working in that type of environment for over 12 years. My employer has even placed cameras outside restroom entrances. There is even a version of the thought police...disguised as human resources. They reward snitches.

Just be sure when you are in the engineer seat that you go with a totally blank expression...otherwise they might believe your are thinking and send the drones after you.

Mark H

[tree68]

henry6

called her on her cell phone

I hope not - that would be an FRA violation....

[henry6]

By what is being said here is that if there had been a camera in the cab showing the motorwoman sleeping somebody from HQ would have either called her on her cell phone or sent somebody out to wake her up.  This is the folly of the camera and the value of PTC.  And like the MNRR's Rockefeller who, as it turns out, has sleep apnea that was discovered after his wreck, what difference would a camera have  been?  The need is to be aware of illnesses like sleep apnea (Rockefeller didn't know he had it until diagnosed after the wreck); understand that human's are not supposed to be nocturnal animals as such; that changing sleeping habits from one part of the day or week to another causes sleep and attention problems; that fatigue is still not completely studied and understood; that work rules and habits have to be carefully scrutinized and perhaps rewritten and revised.

[BigJim]

Hey Jack! This says it all!

[ndbprr]

Yes but this was the second time for her. She was reprimanded previously for falling asleep and missing a stop. I guess disgruntled passengers woke her that t time.

[rfpjohn]

"Second floor, lingerie."

[samfp1943]

tatans

ndbprr

So do you think if one existed on the CTA train to Ohare maybe the sleeping idiot driving the train might not have injured 35 people?

I bet if there were cameras present before the wreck, it may have shown this guy falling asleep on other occasions and he may have been fired,  would that be all right to save a few injuries or even deaths???

First the Operator was Female.  And there were surveillance cameras and they got pics of the Train trying to climb the escalator after it went though the end of track Bumper... It is anyone's guess at which point she woke up.

[BaltACD]

Don't forget, those assigned to watch the feeds from the inward cameras would most likely fall asleep themselves - from boredom.

[SALfan]

Aiming a camera at Congressmen 24 hours a day? That wou,ld be a GREAT job security measure for the folks I used to work with (prison employees).

[tatans]

ndbprr

So do you think if one existed on the CTA train to Ohare maybe the sleeping idiot driving the train might not have injured 35 people?

I bet if there were cameras present before the wreck, it may have shown this guy falling asleep on other occasions and he may have been fired,  would that be all right to save a few injuries or even deaths???

[BaltACD]

Don't bet the house on it.  Bad decisions kill.

[ndbprr]

So do you think if one existed on the CTA train to Ohare maybe the sleeping idiot driving the train might not have injured 35 people?

[tatans]

My opinion :  I would have loved to have cameras pointing inward to our drafting office, I was the youngest guy there, so I got all the worst jobs and most of the work while these other jerks sat and looked out the window  and talked about their pensions, time after time more work was piled on me by "senior" draftsmen, guess who had to work overtime and weekends (I was single) and who took vacation in the middle of January,  if there were cameras present 99% of these bozos could never hold a job, and this carried on throughout the industry,,and this with a company that was fanatically anti-union.

[dehusman]

BaltACD

And we also need inward facing cameras in 'the boss's' office, with sound - to keep things on the up and up in the spirit of Sunshine for all.

 

Except if the boss nods off for a couple minutes nobody dies.

[Phoebe Vet]

If the Union and the Railroad management got together and established guidelines, I think something could be worked out.

A starting place:  A camera and crew voice recorder that stores only the most recent 20 minutes with a mechanism to freeze it in the event of a collision and is not available for management review unless there is an incident.  Perhaps only reviewable by the NTSB during an accident investigation.

For those afraid of being monitored, it would occur only if whatever you did wrong resulted in an incident.  It would also show if you did nothing wrong and the fault is all external.