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Inward Facing Cameras

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 10, 2014 12:23 PM

jeffhergert

dehusman

n012944

Talk about missing the big picture.

In cab cameras would not be able to tell how many hand brakes are applied to a train parked at the top of a hill.....

 
Correct.  But they can determine that from examining the burned wreckage at the bottom of the hill.  The root cause is WHY the proper number of hand brakes weren't set, WAS the proper brake test done?  The video would have shown what the engineer did in the cab, did he test the handbrakes, how long was he out of the cab setting handbrakes.  Calling the manager a bad name doesn't jeopardize the railroad, (and the thousands of people that work for it) running a red block and ramming into an oncoming train does.
 
99.9999% of the time railroad employees do the right thing.  Are you willing to let the .00001% who don't risk your life or job?
 
The bottom line is for everybody to get home safe.
 

The down load would tell if the proper release test was made after the hand brakes were set.  Down loads have in the past have caught the failure to do proper brake tests (all kinds, not just securement tests) and discipline was given because of the tape.  Not just post accident reviews either, some from random reviews. 

As far as handling of the train: speed, blowing the horn, etc, all that is already available (some in real time depending on the engine) through the event recorder.  And at times those down loads have exonerated an engineer, for example when the engineer did everything right but experienced a break in two.

It has also happened at other times that an electronic record (event recorder, taped phone or radio conversation) wasn't available because either the device failed to work or the retrieved tape was "lost."

Jeff 

A camera is not needed for a download to tell if a brake application has or has not been made or that a signal aspect has been recognized (unless you require the engineer to give the three ring sign which could mean OK or that he drank three bottles of Ballentine before boarding.  Or are you suggesting that there should be back up programs to back up programs which are already back up programs  to back up programs.  Am I getting silly?  No.  Just showing how silly we get when we want to look like we are doing something about something and when we want to do it so as to point blame instead of implementing real programs of relief and solution.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:32 AM

dehusman

n012944

Talk about missing the big picture.

In cab cameras would not be able to tell how many hand brakes are applied to a train parked at the top of a hill.....

 
Correct.  But they can determine that from examining the burned wreckage at the bottom of the hill.  The root cause is WHY the proper number of hand brakes weren't set, WAS the proper brake test done?  The video would have shown what the engineer did in the cab, did he test the handbrakes, how long was he out of the cab setting handbrakes.  Calling the manager a bad name doesn't jeopardize the railroad, (and the thousands of people that work for it) running a red block and ramming into an oncoming train does.
 
99.9999% of the time railroad employees do the right thing.  Are you willing to let the .00001% who don't risk your life or job?
 
The bottom line is for everybody to get home safe.
 

The down load would tell if the proper release test was made after the hand brakes were set.  Down loads have in the past have caught the failure to do proper brake tests (all kinds, not just securement tests) and discipline was given because of the tape.  Not just post accident reviews either, some from random reviews. 

As far as handling of the train: speed, blowing the horn, etc, all that is already available (some in real time depending on the engine) through the event recorder.  And at times those down loads have exonerated an engineer, for example when the engineer did everything right but experienced a break in two.

It has also happened at other times that an electronic record (event recorder, taped phone or radio conversation) wasn't available because either the device failed to work or the retrieved tape was "lost."

Jeff 

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:12 AM

What a camera is going to tell you is what you already know.  There is boredom in the cab alone. There are things that may distract one.  Sleep, fatigue, time changes, shift changes, out of turn calls, long layovers or no calls, etc. all cause problems.  A camera isn't going to tell you anything more.  So act on what you know are the problems, history has already done your research now propose a real solution and not just take pictures of what you already know.  The is an exercise in self flagellation to show the world you are doing something even if it is just marching in place by flapping your mouths.  

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Posted by rockymidlandrr on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:23 PM

Alright, I believe its time for me to weigh in again.   Someone brought up that the cameras would only be used only in situations where an incident has occured.  Well I can say that where I work at, when they installed cameras all throughout the yard it was promised that they were for security only, and that faded away when they quickly started using them to spy on employee's and fire them.  That's not security usage.  I'm not defending the employee but just stating that by spying on them is not what was promised for.

As for something to hide, there are the good employees and the bad ones, but I don't want someone looking over my own shoulder.  I do my best when I get my orders and I'm left alone to get the job done.

As I have stated before, that engine cab is our spot of privacy in the field.  Its where we run the train, handle business, eat food, and sometimes even have to change clothes.  How would someone like a camera in the locker room in their gym for example only to be viewed under the terms of an "incident"?

There are already microphones on engines now also.

Just more food for thought.

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:41 PM

The answer is to put the cameras in, then demonstrate to the workforce that they will not be used for witch hunts.

That requires a long term commitment by all levels of management to use the cameras only as an investigative tool.  

If they want to "weed weasel," let them hide in the weeds.

If they discover a problem through "routine" monitoring (like a sleep issue), great.  If they can figure out why a crew ran a signal, fantastic.

Inappropriate behaviors should result in non-punitive counselling ("don't do that again!"), at least for a first offense, and upper levels of management should be monitoring said actions, to ensure that they don't have a witch hunter of a supervisor.

But the first time a crew gets seriously dinged on some BS "misdeed," (and I'm not talking a safety issue here), the trust will drop to zero.

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:28 PM

n012944

Talk about missing the big picture.

In cab cameras would not be able to tell how many hand brakes are applied to a train parked at the top of a hill.....

 
Correct.  But they can determine that from examining the burned wreckage at the bottom of the hill.  The root cause is WHY the proper number of hand brakes weren't set, WAS the proper brake test done?  The video would have shown what the engineer did in the cab, did he test the handbrakes, how long was he out of the cab setting handbrakes.  Calling the manager a bad name doesn't jeopardize the railroad, (and the thousands of people that work for it) running a red block and ramming into an oncoming train does.
 
99.9999% of the time railroad employees do the right thing.  Are you willing to let the .00001% who don't risk your life or job?
 
The bottom line is for everybody to get home safe.
 

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:09 PM

schlimm
A whole lot of people in a wide variety of jobs have management looking over their shoulders and abusing their power for their own gain.   What makes you think you folks are so special you should be immune to that, especially when safety is on the line?

Right.  Let's race to the bottom, professor.

  

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Posted by n012944 on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:05 PM

dehusman

Y'all are missing the big picture here. 

Nobody's trying to catch people changing clothes.  Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video). 

What the railroads are trying to figure out is why trains drive into the rear of the train ahead of them.  Why a train gets a 1/4 mile past a red block.  Why a crew blows by a red board and runs over a tamper.  Why a crew passes an approach and accelerates.  Why a crew enters the main track without authority.  A very, very very small number of crews do those things, but that tiny fraction is a huge risk to themselves, their co-workers, the public, the customers and the railroad.

Shoving your locomotive 15 cars deep into the train ahead is "not bending the rules".

The guy on the MMA may have bent a few rules, taken a few shortcuts, after all what will happen if you bend a few rules.  After all its a little thing, its not like its going to kill 40+ people, level a town, put the railroad in bankruptcy, and put all your other co-workers out of a job.

" But if a rule bent just a little makes life better, what the heck? "

Talk about missing the big picture.

In cab cameras would not be able to tell how many hand brakes are applied to a train parked at the top of a hill.....

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:03 PM

Correct.  But it might give people information to stop the next one.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:56 PM

dehusman

The guy on the MMA may have bent a few rules, taken a few shortcuts, after all what will happen if you bend a few rules.  After all its a little thing, its not like its going to kill 40+ people, level a town, put the railroad in bankruptcy, and put all your other co-workers out of a job.

 

And what woul a camera have prevented in that incident - NADA

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:55 PM

zugmann

dehusman
Nobody's trying to catch people changing clothes.  Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video). 

Right.,.. because no manager ever abused something for their own gain. 

Never.

Nope.

Nada.

A whole lot of people in a wide variety of jobs have management looking over their shoulders and abusing their power for their own gain.   What makes you think you folks are so special you should be immune to that, especially when safety is on the line?

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:44 PM

dehusman
Nobody's trying to catch people changing clothes.  Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video). 

Right.,.. because no manager ever abused something for their own gain. 

Never.

Nope.

Nada.

  

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:36 PM

Y'all are missing the big picture here. 

Nobody's trying to catch people changing clothes.  Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video). 

What the railroads are trying to figure out is why trains drive into the rear of the train ahead of them.  Why a train gets a 1/4 mile past a red block.  Why a crew blows by a red board and runs over a tamper.  Why a crew passes an approach and accelerates.  Why a crew enters the main track without authority.  A very, very very small number of crews do those things, but that tiny fraction is a huge risk to themselves, their co-workers, the public, the customers and the railroad.

Shoving your locomotive 15 cars deep into the train ahead is "not bending the rules".

The guy on the MMA may have bent a few rules, taken a few shortcuts, after all what will happen if you bend a few rules.  After all its a little thing, its not like its going to kill 40+ people, level a town, put the railroad in bankruptcy, and put all your other co-workers out of a job.

" But if a rule bent just a little makes life better, what the heck? "

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:40 PM

I think the camera issue could give a new meaning to "work to rule."  Mind you, I don't advocate wholesale disregarding of rules, but I'm sure that the rules get bent a little from time to time, in the name of expediency.  Most folks value their own health and safety, so it's not like people are going to ignore safety.  But if a rule bent just a little makes life better, what the heck?

Not if someone is watching over your shoulder.  I's will be dotted and t's will be crossed.  If it slows down the job, or even the division, well, that's too bad.


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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:03 PM

Euclid
Intimidation?  People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors.  They welcome the recognition.

The problem is we are being recognized by people that may not understand.  discussed about drying out clothes.  So some brand new, fresh out of college manager watches a video and sees a crew member in a trailing engine stripped down to their skivvies.  Now will they immediately freak out and try to write the crew member up for "inappropriate apparel"?  Of course they can, but anyone who has worked the ground knows what it is like to be caught in a rainstorm and soaked to the bone.  It's not like the crew member was flagging a crossing in their tightey-whiteys, but is instead buried deep in a yard track in the middle of nowhere.

Or a crew makes a disparaging remark about a manager while sitting at a stop signal at 3am.  Will that trainmaster have thick enough skin to not retaliate?  After all, every railroader worth his salt has been called every name in the book by their managers when they have their doors closed. 

  

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Posted by efftenxrfe on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:23 PM

Thermonuclear reactions aren't as hot as this inward camera subject.

Agreement: with y'all who say they are effectively ineffective in accident prevention, that unions have no say in the operating department's rules content or adaption.

Examples: the terrifying realization that you just can't keep your eyes open, or maintain conciousness, 4 AM, working on a yellow (approach signal) and you've just thrown ice-water on your face.....I've been there...Done that!! And, at Taylor Yard, LA, Ken Miller, SP's rules guru, I can't laud or compliment his integrity or practical app's of the rules, assembled in the early '80s, a seminar to work on and assemble the next western RR's rulebook. I participated and can testify there were no reps from the Brotherhoods, (unions) present.

Please consider the results of a jury seeing 2 time stamped videos: 1 of the engineer or C&E, the other of the crossing they are approaching and, tragically, subsequently slaughter a person or people.

Could, and if they did, would life be saved, if they had acted differently; reasonably could they have been expected to perform thusly?

The cameras, injury law partnerships, D'ya hear Ka-Ching, the RR's cash register emptying?


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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 6:41 PM

We can negotiate some of the conditions we work under, but we cannot choose or create operating rules, and as Dave pointed out, the “rules” are just that, operating rules, not work condition or work performed rules.

Case in point, air gauges on the end of trains for the performance of initial terminal air test and yard to yard air test.

We can’t argue the need or use of such gauges….but we can negotiate who hangs that gauge and who performs the air test and under what conditions we can be required to hang the gauge.

In the case of the cameras, that will be federal law, we can’t negotiate them away, but we can try to negotiate when they can be used, who has access to them, under what conditions the cameras will be on, and what the images captured can be used for, (accident investigation, punitive punishment during internal investigations, things such as that) and what degree of privacy will be afforded the crew.

 

 

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 5:51 PM

schlimm

Negotiation happens in other industries.  Conditions of work are fair game.  Why your union only does what it is told it can do by the railroad is perhaps a question you should be asking them.

The "rules" aren't work rules, they are operating rules.  Whether you stop at a stop signal or how a brake test is performed, whether you sound a whistle signal, where your authority to proceed on the main track extends to the first or last siding switch are not things to be negotiated.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 5:47 PM

It was often the unions that brought about many safety rules and appliances because the investor rail management wouldn't.  This is true of other industries, too.  I'm not going to get political here by revealing who is behind the lie that the unions didn't do anything.

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 5:43 PM

BaltACD

Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.

 
That's because many of the rules were written by the government (power brake law, hazmat laws, etc).
 
PTC should be even more fun.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 5:33 PM

n012944
What railroad permits the union to have a say in the way the rule book is written?  None that I am aware of..

Negotiation happens in other industries.  Conditions of work are fair game.  Why your union only does what it is told it can do by the railroad is perhaps a question you should be asking them.

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:14 PM

schlimm

BaltACD
Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.

The way you folks talk, you would think you don't have a union.   Why does it and the membership agree to the adoption of such a rule book?  

What railroad permits the union to have a say in the way the rule book is written?  None that I am aware of.......

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:09 PM

BaltACD
Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.

The way you folks talk, you would think you don't have a union.   Why does it and the membership agree to the adoption of such a rule book?  

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:01 PM

Norm48327

zugmann

Euclid
Intimidation?  People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors.  They welcome the recognition.

Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1?

Or a boss who is simply out to get everyone? There are those.

Euclid's statement may apply in some Oriental cultures where authority is never challenged, but not here.

Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 3:41 PM

zugmann

Euclid
Intimidation?  People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors.  They welcome the recognition.

Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1?

Or a boss who is simply out to get everyone? There are those.

Euclid's statement may apply in some Oriental cultures where authority is never challenged, but not here.

Norm


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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 3:35 PM

OK.  We now know\, thanks to Rockefeller at MNRR, that only an exam can reveal sleep apnea and not by the individual's self exam. Therefore, instead of a camera to watch for the engineer to fall asleep, all should be tested or examined or whatever for signs of sleep apnea.  We also know abrupt changes in schedules will cause a problem in sleep patterns.  A camera isn't going to change that...but a study and program of  determining how to change patterns will or should.   

I was intrigued, however,by the Japanese over the shoulder camera.  Less intrusive and more able to see what is happening outside the cab.  But still fairly useless in stopping the train.  And, again, how can one person be viewing a hundred or more trains and engineers at once (and without going to sleep himself!).  It is totally ludicrous.  

A camera beamed at an engineer or motorman cannot be reliable to read a face despite the hocus pocus hype from computer gurus.  It makes more sense to attach electric probes to the body to watch for signs of change in temperature, blood pressure, muscle tones, heart rate, brainwaves, etc.  But even then each individual is so different each machine would have to be specifically designed to the individual person.  A camera is probably only good to watch the engineer get injured or worse  but I don't see how it could produce a product quick enough to stop a train.  

Only exhibitionists, entertainers, and egos like to be constantly watched.  A camera does not produce pride.  People would more likely over think a situation, second guess themselves, be looking at the camera rather than ahead, even the red light on the camera can be distracting!  It is nothing more than a salve for managers and politicians, and a boom to the surveillance hardware industry.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 3:33 PM

Euclid
Intimidation?  People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors.  They welcome the recognition.

Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1?

  

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 2:35 PM

flmiller

 

I really don't think the presence of a camera, fake or not, will keep someone awake if they are sleep-deprived or otherwise 'conscious-impaired', whatever the cause, nor do I think there is evidence that it will. Losing consciousness, for whatever reason, generally isn't a willful act, and a camera won't make any difference.  And would a camera affect the actions of an employee prior to their shift?  Not likely, since they didn't intend to fall asleep/lose consciousness anyway, knowing the consequences.

If the cameras play a role in preventing sleep, that's fine, but that is not expected.  Falling asleep is regarded as being beyond willful control, as you say. 

The way the sleep issue will be delt with is with testing for shift work disorder, and either successfully treating the employee, or taking him or her out of safety sensitive service.  The alternative method of dealing with it is a personal consciousness monitor. 

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, April 8, 2014 2:08 PM

Sleep detection device:

http://www.google.com/patents/US5689241 

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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