Trains.com

Remembering the "Professional Iconoclast"

32396 views
201 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 1,751 posts
Posted by dakotafred on Monday, March 31, 2014 8:27 AM

AgentKid

First, I met a woman RTC (dispatcher) through a friend, who had never heard of the word trick used to describe a shift. She found it very funny. I guess it is no longer in use on CP.

Knowing both applications of the word, I'd never stopped to think of the one in connection with the other. I can see why the dispatcher laughed ... even as I'm surprised at the usage she was familiar with! 

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, March 31, 2014 7:51 PM

Related to "working hours", this showed up in my e-mail box today, - a panel discussion on the FAA's new regulations for scheduling and managing U.S.-based pilot flight time, duty and rest. The rule is based on the building body of sleep science that demonstrates the correlation between sleep and performance:

From: Diana F Marek

Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 12:46 PM

To: Icarus Society (ICARUSSOCIETY@listserv.it.northwestern.edu)

Subject: Icarus Society Event: - Tues. April 1 @ 5:15 pm : Aviation Rest & Fatigue Regulations for Pilots - Panel Discussion 

REMINDER:  Icarus Event - Tomorrow at 5:15 pm at the Transportation Center 

Mark your calendar for our upcoming Icarus Society (Aviation Interest Group) event - Tuesday, April 1st..   All are welcome.  Please share this announcement with others you think may be interested.  (See below for other aviation events scheduled in the coming months.) 

The NU Transportation Center Icarus Society presents.......
The Science of Sleep:  Aviation Rest and Fatigue Regulations for Pilots - a Panel Discussion"
Tuesday - April 1, 2014 - 5:15 pm

Location:  Northwestern University Transportation Center, Chambers Hall, 600 Foster, Evanston - Lower Level 

Speakers: Noam Alon, Director of the United Airlines Network Operations Center

Dr. Kathryn Reid, Research Associate Professor in the Department of Neurology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine & Associate Director of the Circadian Rhythms & Sleep Research Program

 The FAA has adopted new regulations for scheduling and managing U.S.-based pilot flight time, duty and rest. The rule is based on the building body of sleep science that demonstrates the correlation between sleep and performance. Come listen to two experts discuss the biology of sleep and the impact to the U.S. Airline industry.

About the Speakers:

 Noam Alon is Director of the United Airlines Network Operations Center.  He is responsible for providing centralized direction and coordination of operational and service aspects for nearly 6,000 daily flights around the globe. In this capacity, he is focused on schedule integrity, customer convenience, and operating profit. Noam is also a United Airlines pilot, having flown both 737 and 727 jet aircraft for the airline. He recently was part of a core team of leaders responsible for United's preparation and transition to the new pilot flight and duty regulations, FAR 117.  He earned his MBA from Kellogg in 2008. He works out of United's Operations Center in the Willis Tower in downtown Chicago.

 Dr. Kathryn Reid received her PhD from the University of Adelaide in Australia in 1998. Dr Reid's research interests are aimed at gaining a greater understanding of the relationship between the sleep and circadian systems with health and safety. Current research areas include, understanding the basis and treatment of circadian rhythm sleep disorders, the effects of sleep loss on performance and safety, and the relationship between sleep and risk for metabolic and cardiovascular disease.  Dr Reid also has extensive experience in the study of the impact of shift work on sleep, performance and health in the workplace. She has received funding from the National Academies of Science/Transportation Research Board, National Institutes of Health, National Space and Biomedical Research Institute, Philips Consumer Lifestyles and has published her work in internationally recognized peer reviewed journals.  She is a leading expert in sleep research and has presented her work at numerous national and international conferences. 

Diana F. Marek Assistant Director Transportation Center

Celebrating 60 Years of Excellence  1954-2014

Northwestern University 600 Foster St. Evanston, Il 60208-4055

847-491-2280

d-marek@northwestern.edu<mailto:d-marek@northwestern.edu> http://www.transportation.northwestern.edu/

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 31, 2014 8:45 PM

Dr. Reid is a superb researcher and a good panelist.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 6:26 AM

That presentation is relevant to this thread because John Kneiling appeared to not care about the effects of such matters on worker performance.  Contrast with many columns in Trains by Don Phillips (and others).

- Paul North.   

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:32 AM

How can you NOT care about worker fatigue and it's effect on performance?  Even a hard-charger like General Patton said you can't expect troops to continue an attack after 48 hours, they'd be too exhausted and would have to be pulled out of the line.

Even a cold-blooded bottom-liner should have the sense to realize tired workers make mistakes, and mistakes cost money, sometimes a little, but usually a whole lot.

Bottom-liners may not care about people, but they sure care about the profit margin.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 8,156 posts
Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 9:05 AM

Yes.  It amazes me how contemporary businesses and managers have turned away or thrown away or otherwise disregard all the time and motion and fatigue studies done and accepted.  Thus the 8 hour day and 40 hour work week worked well for quantity and quality production as well as a productive and healthy employee.  Today, in all businesses and not just railroading, employees scared of losing their jobs are forced into disregarding their own health and productivity by working up to 12 hours a day and as many days a week the boss orders.  Never mind the overtime pay issue, it is irrelevant to this discussion.  Fatigue through overwork and the attending stress diminishes the value in both quantity and quality of the product or service.  Management is probably losing more than they are gaining in the slave like conditions they have produced mistakenly believing they will make more money.   They may not be producing enough more to beat the profit margin nor the quality of product to induce reordering.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,793 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 10:49 AM

Part of the problem with fatigue is that rules and regulated work hours don't diminish it. What happens if a worker becomes tired after only two hours on the job? That's happened to me.. you feel compelled to push on because telling your boss that you need a sleep break won't go over too well with most employers. Sometimes I can work 16 hours at a stretch without experiencing fatigue while at other times I'm pretty much spent after only a few hours. In transportation it might be best to give workers some discretion in deciding when they need to book off for rest, instead of telling them when they should be tired. Better to park it for a couple of hours or have a relief crew come out than have to deal with a serious accident.

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,148 posts
Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 12:03 PM

The issue of fatigue goes way beyond the simple cause of working long and hard.  A deeper understanding of shift work disorder is emerging and it poses a staggering challenge for the transportation industry. 

The problem is that fatigue cannot be eliminated merely by adequate rest.  So employees must either be medically tested or automatically monitored for fatigue.  Either approach is bound to be seen as far more intrusive and onerous than the contentious inward facing cameras ever dreamed of being. 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Guelph, Ontario
  • 4,793 posts
Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 1:46 PM

And fatigue is really just the tip of the iceberg. In my experience  most people are dealing with serious mental problems...  stress related disorders, serious anger issues, mental breakdown, and depression. Just getting enough sleep won't fix that. 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 2:17 PM

Inward-facing cameras are nothing more than the latest buzz-phrase from politicians who just HAVE to say SOMETHING about everything.

The only thing they're good for is telling you what the engineer was doing prior to the crash.  Asleep or not asleep, texting or not texting, you name it.

Unless the idea is to keep the employee's fear factor up.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 24,873 posts
Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:24 PM

Ulrich
Part of the problem with fatigue is that rules and regulated work hours don't diminish it. What happens if a worker becomes tired after only two hours on the job? That's happened to me.. you feel compelled to push on because telling your boss that you need a sleep break won't go over too well with most employers. Sometimes I can work 16 hours at a stretch without experiencing fatigue while at other times I'm pretty much spent after only a few hours.

I read of an experiment some time back wherein the participants were denied any indication of time of day (ie, no clocks, no windows, etc).  They were encouraged to be active and to sleep as the mood struck them, if you will.  I don't recall specifics, but apparently some folks did stay up, and active, for extended periods of times - which is to say more than 24 hours.  One would assume that they slept until they felt rested, and then went at it again.

Seems like they had tasks that they were expected to perform, but again, I don't recall what they may have been.  I'm assuming that they would be tasks for which figuring out elapsed time would be difficult.

Given that information, it becomes difficult to cookie-cutter work hours vs an employee's individual case.  

When I was working shift work, mids was always tough, especially as a single parent of two teens.  I tried to mesh my schedule with their, sleeping while they were in school, but it wasn't always possible, especially if some task required that I be available during the day.

Eves wasn't bad, although I did discover that when we worked 4-12 I tended to stay up later (2AM and more) than when we changed the shift to 3-11.  In that case, I was home before midnight, and usually in bed by midnight.   Just something about the "witching hour."

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,373 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:20 PM

tree68
I read of an experiment some time back wherein the participants were denied any indication of time of day (ie, no clocks, no windows, etc).  They were encouraged to be active and to sleep as the mood struck them, if you will.  

If this was the Arctic experiment, the 'circadian rhythm' worked out to be somewhere in the 35-hour range ... there were some other interesting aspects.

More importantly, perhaps, were the Air Force experiments into 'power naps' (no more than about 45 minutes' nap taken at just the right times) - there is something similar in the 'wolfnaps' in Farley Mowat's 'Never Cry Wolf'.  This is a very different thing from the REM cycle, and indeed it can be intriguing to see what types of activity and vigilance are furthered in sustained activity facilitated by 'power-napping' (most notably, SAC holds).

Needless to say, rotating shifts are an invention of the devil, almost as bad as those buzzer vigilance controls...

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, April 1, 2014 9:09 PM

Without any references as to actual time, such as light or clocks, we shift to a 25 hour day, basically moving one hour each day.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:17 AM

25 hours is my recollection, too, based on an experiment a few decades ago where the participants lived in a cave (or underground or in a windowless building, etc.) for at least several weeks.  I don't have a further citation or reference available (without an Internet search, etc.).

- Paul North.   

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 24,873 posts
Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 7:40 AM

Actually, the 36 hour number sounds familiar, but the 25 hour number make sense, too.

I've also heard that when rotating shifts, it's better to go ahead than back.

I once applied for a job (which I thankfully didn't get) that rotated weekly.  Had to be a real sleep nightmare.  

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Louisiana
  • 2,291 posts
Posted by Paul of Covington on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:48 AM

    As long as we've wandered onto the subject of sleep....

   Of course, there are probably many different studies on sleep patterns with different conditions and goals, but I do remember one that determined that people tended to settle into a 25 hour period.

    And while the following obviously wouldn't apply to railroading, there was an article by a British sailor who did a lot of single-handed sailing (ocean crossing type) where he learned to take frequent naps of 20 minutes or so day and night so that he could stay reasonably alert and still keep a decent lookout.

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 328 posts
Posted by lenzfamily on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:07 AM

tree68

I've also heard that when rotating shifts, it's better to go ahead than back.

I once applied for a job (which I thankfully didn't get) that rotated weekly.  Had to be a real sleep nightmare.  

Tree

That was my shift schedule in power generation at Whitehorse Rapids GS: 7 afternoons, short change, 7 nights, short change, 6 days, long change. As you see we moved forward. This schedule allowed one long weekend a month on the long change depending on the calendar. Day shift was the only time you ever saw anyone else other than your relief. The diesel operator, if engines were needed to take on load, was up the hill in the diesel plant and available by phone from the hydro, but of course as engines were running and loaded, he could not leave the diesel plant. If the diesels weren't needed for load, there was no operator up the hill. You were on your own. 

Nights were the hardest for me for operating. You went on at 1130pm and dropped load until about 1-2am. then everything settled down until about 530am when you started to pick up load again. That 4 hr period could be tough because there was little to do other than read load meters etc, which were logged hourly. You found things to do to keep awake. I used to start and load engines sometimes just for practice. The other shifts were better because the load was continually changing and since much of the plant was manual at the time there was operating work to do, bringing engines on and off line etc. Days in the plant were the best because you were working with the rest of the day shift: instrument tech's, mechanics, electricians and admin and others being around and coming through the control room.

You never really got used to the quick rotation, mainly because it was so quick. You'd get adjusted to a shift and then it was time for a change, often short, and the whole thing started all over again as far as sleep adjustment and having a life around same was concerned. As a single man in the beginning, I could make it work, with some difficulty.

On top of that my wife (now of 40 years) and I were becoming an item. She worked a M-F day job, so if I was working weekends on days she would come to the plant and meet me in the control room (anyone could do that in those days) for the shift change at 300-330pm. We would then head out for hikes around Schwatka Lake etc. If I was on afternoons forget it. We would barely see one another. Days were OK. We made a life but as I said previously, despite the good money, it was no good for the long term, so I got out and got a steady M-F afternoon shift job, (330-12) at even better money. That was doable for both of us.

This is the first time in quite a while I've thought about that period of my working life. I was young so it was OK, sort of. I worked with some guys who had been doing it all their lives. For two of them they coped with it by the bottle. Many would get out after a few years. The lifestyle and the 'ops requirements' were punishing.

Charlie

Chilliwack, BC

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:13 AM

Paul of Covington

    As long as we've wandered onto the subject of sleep....

   Of course, there are probably many different studies on sleep patterns with different conditions and goals, but I do remember one that determined that people tended to settle into a 25 hour period.

    And while the following obviously wouldn't apply to railroading, there was an article by a British sailor who did a lot of single-handed sailing (ocean crossing type) where he learned to take frequent naps of 20 minutes or so day and night so that he could stay reasonably alert and still keep a decent lookout.

Paul (Covington), was that the man who sailed Gypsy Moth around the world? My mother had the book, and it is more than fifty years since I read it. I wish I had been able to take more books from home than I did; the last time I was in the house before it was sold (1984) I could have picked up perhaps a footlocker full--but there was no way I could have carried that on Amtrak.

Paul North, I have often wondered how my brother survived when he had to move from shift to shift every week, working for US Steel in Fairfield, Alabama. Much better is a monthly rotation if rotation is necessary, as the people working at the Southern Natural Gas pumping station in Reform, Alabama, did.

I have worked from seven to seven (both day and night) and from noon to midnight. The noon to midnight was not bad, being little different from 3:30 to midnight (which I also worked), but the all-night shift (which was asked of me only when I had to stand in for the regular man or when I was training a new man) was miserable.

Yet, there are people who seem to prefer the all-night shift--which is a necessary shift if you run your plant 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. In the manufacture of computer chips, there are some lengthy processes that just about necessitate such an operation.

Johnny

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,148 posts
Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:20 AM

I recall that there was a time when it was widely believed that the health issues surrounding shift work were confined solely to rotating shifts.  A steady night shift was thought to not present any problem once you got used to it.

But now, the well-established health threat from Shift Work Disorder (SWD) does not seem to distinguish between straight night shift work and rotating shift work.  It includes both types of shift work as being the cause because the fundamental element of the cause is the interruption of the circadian rhythm, and that occurs with both types of shiftwork. 

My understanding is that the circadian rhythm is established by the 24-hour day/night cycle which is in permanent synchronization with the human “biological clock.”  Therefore, if you work nights and sleep in the daytime, you are out of synch with your circadian rhythm. 

This sleep science has been evolving to the point where it now implicates nightshift work as a cause for SWD, and attributes several serious health threats to the disorder.  It also warns of the safety threat of spontaneously falling asleep during dangerous work functions. 

Not everyone who works nights gets SWD, but the railroad industry is now faced with the need to find out which employees in safety sensitive work are affected by working nights.  Generally, this discovery involves extensive testing and questioning about sleep experience, lifestyle, diet, medical symptoms, etc. 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • 455 posts
Posted by aricat on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:10 AM

I have worked second and third shift most of my working life and I do don't miss shift work at all. I recall one time talking to a Milwaukee Road engineer in 1978 who who started out his work night began at Pig's Eye yard in St Paul with a two hour ride in a company van west to Montevideo Minnesota along with his brakeman and conductor. Picking up his coal train he crawled across bad Milwaukee Road track including 10MPH slow orders east to Minneapolis in the dead of night. The run which once took the Olympian Hiawatha two hours, he did in six. He arrived at Humboldt Avenue in South Minneapolis and he was starring at a red signal  for over an hour waiting for train 201 heading westbound to appear so he could continue to Pig's Eye yard; where he hoped he would reach before he might have wait to ride another company van back to Pig's Eye.

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Rhode Island
  • 2,289 posts
Posted by carnej1 on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:26 AM

This thread is Drifting off it's original intent quite a bit but regarding John Kneiling.

 I own the book and many back issues of Trains with his column in them.

 If you read his description of the "First Generation Integral train", the one that calls for adapting existing rolling stock and equipment, he was essentially spot on in predicting that unit train operations would become a savior for the industry.

He forecast that distributed power locomotives would become commonplace and lauded the idea of drawbar connected freight cars.

That some of his other ideas were not adopted by the industry does not change the fact that he saw the major changes coming in the industry before most of the people working in it did..

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • 8,156 posts
Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 3:43 PM

carnej1

This thread is Drifting off it's original intent quite a bit but regarding John Kneiling.

 I own the book and many back issues of Trains with his column in them.

 If you read his description of the "First Generation Integral train", the one that calls for adapting existing rolling stock and equipment, he was essentially spot on in predicting that unit train operations would become a savior for the industry.

He forecast that distributed power locomotives would become commonplace and lauded the idea of drawbar connected freight cars.

That some of his other ideas were not adopted by the industry does not change the fact that he saw the major changes coming in the industry before most of the people working in it did..

Indeed most inventors, innovators, creative people, et. al., put out literally hundreds or thousands or millions of ideas and inventions while only a handful were worthy enough to be successful   However if they didn't put forth any, then nothing would have come to being.  Like a good photographer who will just take pictures to come up with one that is great or even good.  

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Louisiana
  • 2,291 posts
Posted by Paul of Covington on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 5:02 PM

Johnny:

   " Paul (Covington), was that the man who sailed Gypsy Moth around the world?"

    I'm not sure but I think it may have been Angus Primrose.   I googled  him and didn't find much info, but he did design Gypsy Moth IV , which was a boat Sir Francis Chichester sailed.   I think it was an earlier boat that Chichester sailed around the world.   The old memory is a little cloudy.

   Regarding night shift, I've known people who prefer it, some because employer pays a little extra to compensate and some because of lack of interference by management.

   Regarding circadian rhythm, I remember something about people who work nights never get proper sleep unless they get a certain number of hours under very bright light.

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

  • Member since
    February 2014
  • From: Nescopeck and Topton, Penna.
  • 81 posts
Posted by Eddie Sand on Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:14 AM

The gent who sailed around the world solo was Sir Francis Chichester. And speaking from my own experience, rotating shifts (especially with 16 hours off in between, rather than 24) are a lot rougher than steady overnights. But thanks to all who remembered JGK and DPM; judging by the growth of references on Google, they made a lot more (and bigger) waves than anyone expected "way back when".

19 and copy from 'NP' at Nescopeck, Penna.
  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Allentown, PA
  • 9,810 posts
Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, April 4, 2014 5:22 AM

I'm not done yet with JGK.  This thread may have been the impetus needed to get moving on a long-contemplated project: copy and compile an index of all of his Trains columns to facilitate finding a particular subject (the "Magazine Index" only does that for 'feature' articles).

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Sunday, April 6, 2014 10:58 PM

Excerpt from The Professional Engineer magazine (1952)

Before turning you over to our next author, John G. Kneiling, P.E., of Staten Island, N.Y., we would like to preface his piece with this information: According to legal advice, the New York registration law provision mentioned by Reader Kneiling provides that no corporation formed after 1951 may use the word “engineers” or “engineering” or a derivative of such terms unless composed exclusively of professional engineers. Labor unions generally are not incorporated and the provision cited would therefore not be applicable. Such a provision does not appear in the majority of state registration laws. - PP

I have been reading the pieces in “Professional Postscripts” and I feel that there is one situation of national interest with which this column should deal.

Not long ago I attended a meeting of a neighboring county chapter of my state society at which the subject of engineer unions was discussed by a panel of spokesmen for some of them. When my chance to question the speakers came, I quoted the law of this state — which I assume resembles the law of other states — which says that it is unlawful for any persons to constitute a voluntary organization whose name includes the word “Engineer” or derivative thereof unless all its members are duly licensed, all subject to the “grandfather” provisions. It is under these “grandfather” provisions that the “founder” societies do business. But the “engineer unions” do not seem even to have the right to existence under this law. I asked by what right they did exist, after quoting the law. I was told by a spokesman for one of them that the “engineer unions” do business under Congressional authority, traceable to the interstate commerce provisions of the Constitution and that, therefore, they could ignore State laws.

I subsequently discussed this matter, as well as other usurpations of the title “Engineer” with my colleagues in my own and neighboring counties and in nearby New Jersey.

The conclusion appears to be that: 1) Most engineers do not know that they are protected by law in the use of their professional title, 2) the men I talked to, for the most part, agree that “engineer unions” can defy State laws with impunity, 3) if I insist on “throwing the law book” at persons illegally using the title “engineer,” I will only “stir up trouble,” make enemies of many people, bring ridicule upon the profession and otherwise do disservice to the profession, and 4) the State is not particularly interested anyway in enforcing the law until and unless the State Society provides the initiative. May I suggest, therefore, that the NSPE promote and continually press a program consisting of the following activities:

1—Educate engineers generally concerning their rights in the several states to protection in the use of the title “engineer.” 2—Encourage, repeatedly and continuously, the prosecution of “clean-up” programs aimed at eliminating the illegal use of the professional title. When the public sees a plumber’s truck labeled “Joe Doakes Engineering Co.” or “John Smith Engineering Co., Television repairs,” then our profession cannot command much respect. 3—Closely police trade papers for violations. For example, an electrical contractor of my acquaintance received a circular from a washing machine distributor recommending that any washing machine servicemen whom he might employ be designated "Service Engineers." If such violators received a letter and then a summons, we would make progress even at the temporary expense of “harmony.” 4—Find, warn and if necessary prosecute persons in corporate employ who use titles incorporating the word “engineer” in the absence of licenses. Such violations include “Sales Engineers,” many grades of “Chief Engineer,” etc., whose names appear on stationery and elsewhere with improper titles. I have little hope for local initiative in this matter without a lot of encouragement from the NSPE. But the only way we can gain the respect that other professions have attained is by adopting a positive attitude in this matter. And I fear we will gain little by persuasion. We should start with persuasion in each case but should be prepared to see the law enforced with the same vigor that our colleagues in other professions would employ.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • 4,190 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:06 PM

Excerpt from The Congressional Record: Proceedings and Debates of the 93rd Congress

Hon. Philip M. Crane of Illinois in the House of Representatives - Wednesday, May 2, 1973

Mr. Crane: Mr. Speaker, the May issue of Trains magazine carries an editorial piece by a professional engineer, John G. Kneiling, entitled “Credibility Runs Out.”

This article is perhaps the most striking—no pun intended—commentary on current problems in the transportation industry I have ever seen in print. Mr. Kneiling’s commentary gets to the heart of the problem which everybody is afraid to discuss, namely, organized labor. We can pour billions of devalued Federal dollars into the Nation's transportation systems and we can purchase rail rights-of-way and we can form new re-organized corporations out of the ashes of the old bankrupt corporations, but we will never come to grips with what ails our transportation industry until we begin to look at the questions of organized labor, productivity, wages, and others.

Because Mr. Kneiling's commentary provides much needed insight into this current dilemma, I included it in the Record at this point:

CREDIBILITY RUNS OUT (By John G. Kneiling)

As this column is written in February, some 1972 end-of-year events can be viewed with detachment. Most were simply current episodes in long-running cliff-hangers, but so many of these events occurred so close together that the scene has become overpowering.

The Long Island Rail Road was on strike for nearly two months — this time the strikers were the shopmen. Commuters recall them as the group who couldn't maintain new cars. The railroad contracted with the builder for work that LIRR men couldn’t do. Then these men struck – the work was “theirs” even if they could not do it.

The beef this time was that train jockeys got big raises, allegedly (opinions differ) for less featherbedding. Nonoperating forces wanted the same arrangement, and didn't want to talk about productivity. Eventually the union admitted to 600 excess employees, but would allow their elimination only on two conditions: wage increases twice the amount of the saving; and full pay and overtime (!) for the 600 excess employees for the rest of their lives.

Highway jams did not materialize as a result of the strike — perhaps few commuters missed the LIRR this time. Reportedly, 20 to 30 per cent (depending on whom you believe) of the riders did not return to the trains – even before the inevitable fare increase came.

The State of New Jersey finally told the Central of New Jersey to drop its commuters. The subsidy demanded was $80 per month per commuter — plus the fares. No one claimed the account was padded. Eight thousand riders on the main line and 7000 on the New York & Long Branch will "find other means." The 7000 on the Long Branch will ride the Penn Central — while PC lasts.

I recall when trains ran like trolley cars on the Long Branch—and with cafe cars and bar cars and commuters' clubs. The trains ran from Penn Station, Exchange Place, and the CNJ ferry. Now commuters use the Garden State Parkway—in their autos. The highway is not subsidized and it makes a profit; New Jersey Governor William T. Cahill commented publicly on spending the profit in his January message to the Legislature.

Commuters who started driving gave up the club cars to push a piece of iron over the road—and paid tolls too. Besides, a commuter using a car he would not otherwise need (the second car, for instance) must assign to it the first $250 earnings each month—and drive it too. This choice seldom (despite Detroit myths) is made voluntarily; it results from perceived necessity.

Then the subway shops appeared in the news again. Two inspectors, fed up with goof-offs, presented on TV a film they had made at a subway barn. The municipal management filed charges against them for making the film. Nothing was said about the goof-offs. Trains don't work or they break down in service. Doors don't work. Lights don't work. These failures mean that repairmen did not do their jobs. The two inspectors were very, very credible. (Riders recall the last time shopmen showed up on the TV screen. During a strike a union boss appeared on TV and tore up an injunction, saying the judge should drop dead.) Authority hearings were going nowhere, so a mayor's committee held a public session to hear the two inspectors. The meeting was invaded and disrupted by a union delegation. Union civil-service police did not maintain order. That very day an empty parked train rolled into a standing train. Twelve hours later torch men still were cutting apart the wreckage, and the district's State Assemblyman who was inquiring on behalf of his constituents was brushed off.

A driver was too lazy or too stupid to apply brakes; or a mechanic did not do his work, so the brakes did not do theirs. Either theory is believable. Riders recall when the Transit Authority stopped the "key by" system after some accidents. Eliminating the system admitted that drivers can't be trusted with judgment, and that the line must be run as if it were completely automated.

Two major Connecticut Valley bus lines struck last fall, and few cared if they ever came back. (The region is settled at a sparse 1000-per-square-mile population with small cities and no big center.) Both once were trolley lines, and one was railroad owned. Areas dense enough to support bus lines were taken over by people who don't work. People who do work scattered to areas which require every adult to have a car. Industry started to leave — often for lack of help. Factory wages don't support "scatteration," and convenient living areas became uninhabitable for anyone who cares how he lives. The lines were down to one round trip each weekday for every 40 residents. The region became a mini-Los Angeles where common carriage is just a phrase. One line surrendered its franchise when labor demanded security and wage raises. The proposal now has been made that the State run empty buses so that drivers can be hired.

A major airline (American) canceled hundreds of flights last December when pilots ran out of hours. Reportedly plane drivers put in 80 hours a month, and when driver time runs out, the customers are not given consideration. A patron does not like being stranded because some plane jockey has completed his half-time for more income than most riders get for a full-time job.

Commuters were threatened by a strike on PATH — the Port Authority train service which runs to New Jersey bus and rail connections from Manhattan. PATH has the usual problems of poor service and overmanning, and it's losing customers as people find that the connections are useless.

Penn Central’s long-overdue cutting of crews produced another strike threat until the Government ordered the PC to give the union all it asked. Apparently brakemen can't get jobs even in labor-short New York, so they need protection. That’s believable — they have no work experience.

PC's one-day strike further harassed the riders — then Congress again awarded the union all it demanded. You know at whose ultimate expense.

This, incidentally, is how CNJ got into trouble. It kept acquiring help to do less work until the working taxpayers cut them off. A passenger-train employee "bumps" when he should get fired; he loses the customers and someone else gets canned.

Credibility problems are not unique to the big city or to the railroads or to passenger carriers. For instance, a big freight shipper is conducting accident studies to determine which rail route is apt to get his cargo there at all.

I commented in a service conference that a ship line noted in the trade press for a shoestring operation with cheap boats achieves 350 miles a day — nautical miles, at that — including port time. This is seven times the performance of the U.S. rail car. The fastest freighters so far (the SL-7's) make only 40 mph top. A railroader noted that the rail industry as a whole has fallen apart to the point where few trains can be sure of 40 mph even when they run.

Back to commuters. You must understand the customers if you're going to be interested in carrying them. You need not agree with them or approve of them or like them or even care what happens to them, but in any business you must understand what makes the customer tick.

Once it was axiomatic that rails were the way to carry a lot of people or a lot of goods easily, cheaply, with minimum space demands and minimum fuss. That axiom no longer is readily accepted. The practicality of running a railroad at all is being doubted. The practicality of running any labor-intensive common carrier is being doubted by commuters and shippers.

We may be past the point of no return. The day may be past when users of any facility can rely on anything that depends on organized, low-grade labor.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, April 7, 2014 3:30 PM

Did you just now discover 40 years after the fact that JGK was very anti-labor and right wing in his views?

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 1,751 posts
Posted by dakotafred on Monday, April 7, 2014 5:10 PM

Schlimm, I don't think it's "anti-labor" when you jump on people for not doing their jobs. As I recall, rail management took its share of lumps from Kneiling for the same deficiency.

I would call him an equal-opportunity scold. And, my, he sure did do it with style!

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Monday, April 7, 2014 6:24 PM

I was trying to be less inflammatory.  The correct term in re JGK was anti-unionized labor.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy