wanswheelJohn G. Kneiling was born January 18, 1920, received Social Security number 572-16-1542 (indicating California) and died January 22, 2000. If this picture of "Gilbert" is him, he graduated from Stadium High School in Tacoma in 1937. John Gilbert Kneiling was a “Special Research Graduate Assistant in Civil Engineering” at the University of Illinois in 1942. http://www.mocavo.com/Annual-Register-University-of-Illinois-1941-42-Volume-1941-42/975481/431 The Ottawa Journal, May 18, 1949, says, “Mr. and Mrs. Angus Malcolm Parkinson, of Kemptville, announce the engagement of their daughter, Mary Louise, to John Gilbert Kneiling, of New York City, son of Mr. and Mrs. John Kneiling, of Los Angeles, Cal. The marriage will take place on Saturday, June 11, at one o'clock in Westminster Central Church, Toronto.” The January 2014 newsletter of the Immanuel Union Church of Staten Island says Louise Kneiling is one who has “health issues” and is one of the “shut-ins.” http://www.immanuelunionchurch.org/hp_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/January2014.pdf.
George W Hilton was born in 1925 and is a Professor Emeritus at UCLA where he still maintains an office on campus according to the UCLA faculty directory.
I enjoyed reading Professor Hilton articles in Trains especially his riding the Erie passenger trains in the 1950's. Professor Hilton also was on the conservative side of the divide. He also was a superb writer on railroading and other subjects.
Dakotafred, UP's train 5 was a wonderful train, I'm not surprised that Professor Hilton rode it. It was nicer than some other road's named trains. Besides the head end cars; it carried a streamlined sleeper, at least two coaches of post war vintage and a cafe lounge car which served superb food. I rode it in 1964.
dakotafred A 'McCann/Kneiling' command yielded no results, but one post of Gorgon's indicated she came from a family of seven kids whose father sounded like the kind of "Life with Father" pater you would expect our John to be.
aricat [snipped - PDN] . . . I enjoyed reading Professor Hilton articles in Trains especially his riding the Erie passenger trains in the 1950's. Professor Hilton also was on the conservative side of the divide. He also was a superb writer on railroading and other subjects. . . .
Prof. Hilton wrote that he preferred traveling in coach (and perhaps 'mixed' trains) for a variety of reasons. See:
- Paul North.
aricat George W Hilton was born in 1925 and is a Professor Emeritus at UCLA where he still maintains an office on campus according to the UCLA faculty directory ... Dakotafred, UP's train 5 was a wonderful train, I'm not surprised that Professor Hilton rode it. It was nicer than some other road's named trains. Besides the head end cars; it carried a streamlined sleeper, at least two coaches of post war vintage and a cafe lounge car which served superb food. I rode it in 1964.
George W Hilton was born in 1925 and is a Professor Emeritus at UCLA where he still maintains an office on campus according to the UCLA faculty directory ...
wanswheeldakotafred A 'McCann/Kneiling' command yielded no results, but one post of Gorgon's indicated she came from a family of seven kids whose father sounded like the kind of "Life with Father" pater you would expect our John to be. I doubt Zola Gorgon pertains to the John G. Kneiling story. The 1966 obituary of Kneiling’s father-in-law, Angus Malcolm Parkinson, mentions daughter Mrs. John G. Kneiling (Mary Louise) of Staten Island, and grandsons John A., David and Richard Kneiling. At that point in time Mrs. Kneiling was about 44 years old, so she probably was done having babies. Of course, we don’t know yet that they weren’t later divorced. I suppose it’s possible Kneiling had another family with seven kids named after cheese.
Sorry, my previous postings referring to zolagorgon on trainorders.com are in error. The web site on which the "my father" post appeared is railroad.net.
Postscript 11:30 a.m. CDT: Checked out another angle, that possibly Zola/McCann was married to one of the Kneiling sons, and he used her e-mail to post. Nope, she's married to somebody else. Leading to the conclusion that -- unless it's possible to hijack somebody else's e-mail address -- the railroad.net post was a prank by Zola/McCann (even if she did have John G.'s death year right).
Do I have too much time on my hands, or what?
Mention of John Kneiling's 3 sons above led me to wonder what happened to his 'personal' and professional papers (proposals, studies, reports, drawings, etc.), as well as the files of the Theodore Kauffeld firm for which he worked for many years ? While some would surely be obsolete, they might still be of historical interest. Others - such as the details of the integral train design - might still be relevant and valid, or at least a good starting point to refine and finalize the design, instead of starting from scratch again.
dakotafredDo I have too much time on my hands, or what?
Perhaps so, but it makes for an interesting and funny read. I never knew that JGK was a graduate in Civil Engineering from University of Illinois, my alma mater. Guess he can't be all bad!!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Yet the "M.E." after his name in many of his columns and articles usually denotes "Mechanical Engineer", and he sure analyzed and wrote like one. However, there's a substantial overlap between the two disciplines - mainly in subjects such as fluid mechanics, structures, materials science, dynamics of motion, etc., especially in the pre-electronic age, so it's possible he had both degrees. In fact, the chairman of our Civil Engineering Dept. at Lafayette College when I was there was Dr. B. Vincent Viscomi, whose degrees and Ph.D. were in Mechanical Engineering (mainly nuclear engineering), which nevertheless enabled him to teach many of our structural and advanced (Theory of Elasticity) courses.
And now to tie this to John Kneiling: One of our profs for the several sections of the Dynamics course in the Spring of 1973 (2nd semester, sophomore year) was William G. McLean, a Mechanical Engineer, and who served as the College's Director of Engineering (5 departments) and later Head of Engineering Science. While I was taking McLean's Dynamics class, I found that he knew of John Kneiling, and so Prof. McLean wrote him a note about my interest in railroading. John wrote back and said essentially: "Tell him [Paul] to study economcs, not dynamics." ! (proving once again that "no good deed goes unpunished"). We had a good chuckle at that - at the time I was taking the 1st of what would turn out to be 3 economics courses, and there were no more dynamics courses to be taken anyway.
Yep - I knew about that one, but few others might have.
See also U.S. Patent 3,269,332 for "Railroad car and drop-floor arrangement therefor" to John G. Kneiling, Aug. 30, 1966. Apparently it was 'split off' from 3,199,463.
http://www.google.com/patents/US3269332
Thanks for reminding us of these, Mike.
Paul_D_North_JrWhile I was taking McLean's Dynamics class, I found that he knew of John Kneiling, and so prof. McLean wrote him a note about my interest in railroading. John wrote back and said essentially: "Tell him [Paul] to study economcs, not dynamics." ! (proving once again that "no good deed goes unpunished"). We had a good chuckle at that - at the time I was taking the 1st of what would turn out to be 3 economics courses, and there were no more dynamics courses to be taken anyway.
Don't laugh -- that wasn't a kissoff. I had the same kind of answer from Mel Gottlieb when I was first doing physics. He asked what my interest was (at the time, it was what PPL was pursuing: fusion generation of electricity). This was in the Ford administration, and Mel said in some horror 'for heaven's sake, don't study physics; it'll take you 7 or so years just to come up to speed; there's no assurance there will be financing by then; and on top of it there's no guarantee fusion generation will be practical. Learn economics and finance, and get into a position where in 40 years you can get the generators built if they're practical.'
Oddly enough, it's been about 40 years, and we're just now coming to where generators might be built... and I'm highly thankful for having also studied economics and business, in no small part based on that advice.
He..Knieling, was right for his time. MBA's and Marketing concepts were what were taking hold in this and other industries, investments and return on investments with ways to save money were the wave of the then future. Innovation, logistics, and mechanics had to fall into those categories and not from imagination for improving the future. Hopefully Overmod is right, that 40 years beyond Knieling we've moved out of the academic theories and bottom line investing phase and come back to the application and extension of sound railroading. Maybe we had to have the past 40 years in order to understand what really has to be done to be competitive and efficient. Nevertheless, no more guessing, time for applying.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
OvermodOddly enough, it's been about 40 years, and we're just now coming to where generators might be built... and I'm highly thankful for having also studied economics and business, in no small part based on that advice.
We have a manager that studied economics. Well, had. He is leaving the railroad to pursue a more "regular" (you know.. weekends off, no cell phone stuck to his ear all day) job back at his home. Can't blame him... but it's a shame we can't get guys with that kind of background to stick around.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
One can get them, but as always, money talks.
Ulrich One can get them, but as always, money talks.
More than money. Just having some semblance of a life.
If I understand zug correctly, railroads could help themselves by helping the help to a better lifestyle.
Sounds sensible to me -- altho there are other occupations that make what to me would be unattractive demands in exchange for their paychecks.
Take doctors. Lotta money and prestige, right? Recently, the doctor I go to for my checkups, probably 60 years old, said he was semi-retiring, which meant he wouldn't have to take his turn being on call -- with that old cell phone in his pocket -- after 40 years. To say he was looking forward to that is an understatement.
My question: On the rails, there have been limited experiments with getting road people home at night. (The only one I remember for sure is that on the I.C., where crews switched to opposing trains halfway through their run.) To what extent are operating people open to changes like that, some of which would mean more time at home but also less money?
dakotafredTo what extent are operating people open to changes like that, some of which would mean more time at home but also less money?
It's rare you'll ever hear someone complain about NOT going to a hotel.
I was referring to management. As long as they run those guys ragged, they will have trouble keeping talent. He said when he first hired out a few years ago (out of college) he was making more than his friends. Now, a couple years later, they all got promoted at their companies and were making more than him. And they had regular hours / days off, and didn't have to worry about running back to the office because some train stubbed its toe.
I know some of the old head managers spent 25 hours of the day, and 8 days of the week running the show. But I don't think the current generation is going to put up with that.
all just my personal opinion. I may be wrong. I'm just a dumb switchmonkey, after all.
Ridiculous hours and demands on the lower levels of management is not exclusive to railroads.
CSSHEGEWISCH Ridiculous hours and demands on the lower levels of management is not exclusive to railroads.
Never said it was exclusive. But it's not a great way to attract real talent. (but we are drifting way off topic).
zugmann CSSHEGEWISCH Ridiculous hours and demands on the lower levels of management is not exclusive to railroads. Never said it was exclusive. But it's not a great way to attract real talent. (but we are drifting way off topic).
24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads.
That's why I got out of power generation in the plant operations end. Your life was run by a rotating shift schedule plus 'operational requirements' which covered just about any other block(s) of time when needed. Sure, the money was good but it was no kind of life for me for the long run.
All about keeping the grid up.....
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
Just to swing this fine discussion back a bit, I'm struck by the fact that even though Mr. Kneiling's been out of the picture for a long time he still has enough influence to provoke a discussion that's gone to eight pages and 100-plus posts.
Somewhere, he and DPM are looking down on us over a couple of glasses of V.O. and smiling.
Firelock76Somewhere, he and DPM are looking down on us over a couple of glasses of V.O. and smiling.
More like a couple bottles and rolling on the floor in laughter.
lenzfamily BaltACD24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads. That's why I got out of power generation in the plant operations end. Your life was run by a rotating shift schedule plus 'operational requirements' which covered just about any other block(s) of time when needed. Sure, the money was good but it was no kind of life for me for the long run.
I've never understood why some businesses -- power generation being one -- make things more difficult for themselves and their help with rotating shifts. (Power plants in North Dakota do it the same way as described by Charlie.)
Everybody understands that a locomotive engineer has to go when his train is ready, whether that's at 8 in the morning or 8 at night. But the first-trick plant operator's job goes to work at the same time every day, and there's no reason the same person shouldn't be on it five days a week, 52 weeks a year (minus vacations).
Keep it simple -- bid jobs and observe seniority order. Everybody except the lower-seniority "relief" people can get into a rhythm instead of having to recalibrate his life every week, month or whatever the rotation is.
That's even the way it was done with most non-op jobs on the railroad when I worked there.
I understand that the graveyard shift is less desirable as steady fare than 8 to 4 (or 4 to 12). But I doubt it is an impediment to hiring, given the pay in a good industry such as electrical generation. And the new hire can look forward to a better schedule as he climbs the seniority ladder.
I've known power-plant people (and, for that matter, coal miners) for 40 years. I've never met a single one -- including supervisors -- who liked rotating shifts or could justify them (beyond spreading the misery around).
dakotafred But the first-trick plant operator's job goes to work at the same time every day, and there's no reason the same person shouldn't be on it five days a week, 52 weeks a year (minus vacations). Keep it simple -- bid jobs and observe seniority order. Everybody except the lower-seniority "relief" people can get into a rhythm instead of having to recalibrate his life every week, month or whatever the rotation is. That's even the way it was done with most non-op jobs on the railroad when I worked there. I understand that the graveyard shift is less desirable as steady fare than 8 to 4 (or 4 to 12). But I doubt it is an impediment to hiring, given the pay in (especially) a well-paying industry such as electrical generation. And the new hire can look forward a better schedule as he climbs the seniority ladder.
But the first-trick plant operator's job goes to work at the same time every day, and there's no reason the same person shouldn't be on it five days a week, 52 weeks a year (minus vacations).
I understand that the graveyard shift is less desirable as steady fare than 8 to 4 (or 4 to 12). But I doubt it is an impediment to hiring, given the pay in (especially) a well-paying industry such as electrical generation. And the new hire can look forward a better schedule as he climbs the seniority ladder.
Great points.
First, I met a woman RTC (dispatcher) through a friend, who had never heard of the word trick used to describe a shift. She found it very funny. I guess it is no longer in use on CP.
Secondly I have seen various news stories over the years comparing the detrimental health effects of the railway system of straight shifts, and nursing and other jobs that use rotating shifts. The conclusion, one method is no better than the other, if you have to work overnight you're not going to be as healthy as someone who doesn't.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
AgentKidSecondly I have seen various news stories over the years comparing the detrimental health effects of the railway system of straight shifts, and nursing and other jobs that use rotating shifts.
Rotating shifts for nurses is far from universal. Around Chicago, they largely work regular shifts unless they float.
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