Remembering the "Professional Iconoclast"

[Paul of Covington]

Johnny:

   " Paul (Covington), was that the man who sailed Gypsy Moth around the world?"

    I'm not sure but I think it may have been Angus Primrose.   I googled  him and didn't find much info, but he did design Gypsy Moth IV , which was a boat Sir Francis Chichester sailed.   I think it was an earlier boat that Chichester sailed around the world.   The old memory is a little cloudy.

   Regarding night shift, I've known people who prefer it, some because employer pays a little extra to compensate and some because of lack of interference by management.

   Regarding circadian rhythm, I remember something about people who work nights never get proper sleep unless they get a certain number of hours under very bright light.

[henry6]

carnej1

This thread is Drifting off it's original intent quite a bit but regarding John Kneiling.

 I own the book and many back issues of Trains with his column in them.

 If you read his description of the "First Generation Integral train", the one that calls for adapting existing rolling stock and equipment, he was essentially spot on in predicting that unit train operations would become a savior for the industry.

He forecast that distributed power locomotives would become commonplace and lauded the idea of drawbar connected freight cars.

That some of his other ideas were not adopted by the industry does not change the fact that he saw the major changes coming in the industry before most of the people working in it did..

Indeed most inventors, innovators, creative people, et. al., put out literally hundreds or thousands or millions of ideas and inventions while only a handful were worthy enough to be successful   However if they didn't put forth any, then nothing would have come to being.  Like a good photographer who will just take pictures to come up with one that is great or even good.  

[carnej1]

This thread is Drifting off it's original intent quite a bit but regarding John Kneiling.

 I own the book and many back issues of Trains with his column in them.

 If you read his description of the "First Generation Integral train", the one that calls for adapting existing rolling stock and equipment, he was essentially spot on in predicting that unit train operations would become a savior for the industry.

He forecast that distributed power locomotives would become commonplace and lauded the idea of drawbar connected freight cars.

That some of his other ideas were not adopted by the industry does not change the fact that he saw the major changes coming in the industry before most of the people working in it did..

[aricat]

I have worked second and third shift most of my working life and I do don't miss shift work at all. I recall one time talking to a Milwaukee Road engineer in 1978 who who started out his work night began at Pig's Eye yard in St Paul with a two hour ride in a company van west to Montevideo Minnesota along with his brakeman and conductor. Picking up his coal train he crawled across bad Milwaukee Road track including 10MPH slow orders east to Minneapolis in the dead of night. The run which once took the Olympian Hiawatha two hours, he did in six. He arrived at Humboldt Avenue in South Minneapolis and he was starring at a red signal  for over an hour waiting for train 201 heading westbound to appear so he could continue to Pig's Eye yard; where he hoped he would reach before he might have wait to ride another company van back to Pig's Eye.

[Euclid]

I recall that there was a time when it was widely believed that the health issues surrounding shift work were confined solely to rotating shifts.  A steady night shift was thought to not present any problem once you got used to it.

But now, the well-established health threat from Shift Work Disorder (SWD) does not seem to distinguish between straight night shift work and rotating shift work.  It includes both types of shift work as being the cause because the fundamental element of the cause is the interruption of the circadian rhythm, and that occurs with both types of shiftwork. 

My understanding is that the circadian rhythm is established by the 24-hour day/night cycle which is in permanent synchronization with the human “biological clock.”  Therefore, if you work nights and sleep in the daytime, you are out of synch with your circadian rhythm. 

This sleep science has been evolving to the point where it now implicates nightshift work as a cause for SWD, and attributes several serious health threats to the disorder.  It also warns of the safety threat of spontaneously falling asleep during dangerous work functions. 

Not everyone who works nights gets SWD, but the railroad industry is now faced with the need to find out which employees in safety sensitive work are affected by working nights.  Generally, this discovery involves extensive testing and questioning about sleep experience, lifestyle, diet, medical symptoms, etc. 

[Deggesty]

Paul of Covington

    As long as we've wandered onto the subject of sleep....

   Of course, there are probably many different studies on sleep patterns with different conditions and goals, but I do remember one that determined that people tended to settle into a 25 hour period.

    And while the following obviously wouldn't apply to railroading, there was an article by a British sailor who did a lot of single-handed sailing (ocean crossing type) where he learned to take frequent naps of 20 minutes or so day and night so that he could stay reasonably alert and still keep a decent lookout.

Paul (Covington), was that the man who sailed Gypsy Moth around the world? My mother had the book, and it is more than fifty years since I read it. I wish I had been able to take more books from home than I did; the last time I was in the house before it was sold (1984) I could have picked up perhaps a footlocker full--but there was no way I could have carried that on Amtrak.

Paul North, I have often wondered how my brother survived when he had to move from shift to shift every week, working for US Steel in Fairfield, Alabama. Much better is a monthly rotation if rotation is necessary, as the people working at the Southern Natural Gas pumping station in Reform, Alabama, did.

I have worked from seven to seven (both day and night) and from noon to midnight. The noon to midnight was not bad, being little different from 3:30 to midnight (which I also worked), but the all-night shift (which was asked of me only when I had to stand in for the regular man or when I was training a new man) was miserable.

Yet, there are people who seem to prefer the all-night shift--which is a necessary shift if you run your plant 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. In the manufacture of computer chips, there are some lengthy processes that just about necessitate such an operation.

[lenzfamily]

tree68

I've also heard that when rotating shifts, it's better to go ahead than back.

I once applied for a job (which I thankfully didn't get) that rotated weekly.  Had to be a real sleep nightmare.  

Tree

That was my shift schedule in power generation at Whitehorse Rapids GS: 7 afternoons, short change, 7 nights, short change, 6 days, long change. As you see we moved forward. This schedule allowed one long weekend a month on the long change depending on the calendar. Day shift was the only time you ever saw anyone else other than your relief. The diesel operator, if engines were needed to take on load, was up the hill in the diesel plant and available by phone from the hydro, but of course as engines were running and loaded, he could not leave the diesel plant. If the diesels weren't needed for load, there was no operator up the hill. You were on your own. 

Nights were the hardest for me for operating. You went on at 1130pm and dropped load until about 1-2am. then everything settled down until about 530am when you started to pick up load again. That 4 hr period could be tough because there was little to do other than read load meters etc, which were logged hourly. You found things to do to keep awake. I used to start and load engines sometimes just for practice. The other shifts were better because the load was continually changing and since much of the plant was manual at the time there was operating work to do, bringing engines on and off line etc. Days in the plant were the best because you were working with the rest of the day shift: instrument tech's, mechanics, electricians and admin and others being around and coming through the control room.

You never really got used to the quick rotation, mainly because it was so quick. You'd get adjusted to a shift and then it was time for a change, often short, and the whole thing started all over again as far as sleep adjustment and having a life around same was concerned. As a single man in the beginning, I could make it work, with some difficulty.

On top of that my wife (now of 40 years) and I were becoming an item. She worked a M-F day job, so if I was working weekends on days she would come to the plant and meet me in the control room (anyone could do that in those days) for the shift change at 300-330pm. We would then head out for hikes around Schwatka Lake etc. If I was on afternoons forget it. We would barely see one another. Days were OK. We made a life but as I said previously, despite the good money, it was no good for the long term, so I got out and got a steady M-F afternoon shift job, (330-12) at even better money. That was doable for both of us.

This is the first time in quite a while I've thought about that period of my working life. I was young so it was OK, sort of. I worked with some guys who had been doing it all their lives. For two of them they coped with it by the bottle. Many would get out after a few years. The lifestyle and the 'ops requirements' were punishing.

Charlie

Chilliwack, BC

[Paul of Covington]

    As long as we've wandered onto the subject of sleep....

   Of course, there are probably many different studies on sleep patterns with different conditions and goals, but I do remember one that determined that people tended to settle into a 25 hour period.

    And while the following obviously wouldn't apply to railroading, there was an article by a British sailor who did a lot of single-handed sailing (ocean crossing type) where he learned to take frequent naps of 20 minutes or so day and night so that he could stay reasonably alert and still keep a decent lookout.

[tree68]

Actually, the 36 hour number sounds familiar, but the 25 hour number make sense, too.

I've also heard that when rotating shifts, it's better to go ahead than back.

I once applied for a job (which I thankfully didn't get) that rotated weekly.  Had to be a real sleep nightmare.  

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

25 hours is my recollection, too, based on an experiment a few decades ago where the participants lived in a cave (or underground or in a windowless building, etc.) for at least several weeks.  I don't have a further citation or reference available (without an Internet search, etc.).

- Paul North.   

[schlimm]

Without any references as to actual time, such as light or clocks, we shift to a 25 hour day, basically moving one hour each day.

[Overmod]

tree68

I read of an experiment some time back wherein the participants were denied any indication of time of day (ie, no clocks, no windows, etc).  They were encouraged to be active and to sleep as the mood struck them, if you will.  

If this was the Arctic experiment, the 'circadian rhythm' worked out to be somewhere in the 35-hour range ... there were some other interesting aspects.

More importantly, perhaps, were the Air Force experiments into 'power naps' (no more than about 45 minutes' nap taken at just the right times) - there is something similar in the 'wolfnaps' in Farley Mowat's 'Never Cry Wolf'.  This is a very different thing from the REM cycle, and indeed it can be intriguing to see what types of activity and vigilance are furthered in sustained activity facilitated by 'power-napping' (most notably, SAC holds).

Needless to say, rotating shifts are an invention of the devil, almost as bad as those buzzer vigilance controls...

[tree68]

Ulrich

Part of the problem with fatigue is that rules and regulated work hours don't diminish it. What happens if a worker becomes tired after only two hours on the job? That's happened to me.. you feel compelled to push on because telling your boss that you need a sleep break won't go over too well with most employers. Sometimes I can work 16 hours at a stretch without experiencing fatigue while at other times I'm pretty much spent after only a few hours.

I read of an experiment some time back wherein the participants were denied any indication of time of day (ie, no clocks, no windows, etc).  They were encouraged to be active and to sleep as the mood struck them, if you will.  I don't recall specifics, but apparently some folks did stay up, and active, for extended periods of times - which is to say more than 24 hours.  One would assume that they slept until they felt rested, and then went at it again.

Seems like they had tasks that they were expected to perform, but again, I don't recall what they may have been.  I'm assuming that they would be tasks for which figuring out elapsed time would be difficult.

Given that information, it becomes difficult to cookie-cutter work hours vs an employee's individual case.  

When I was working shift work, mids was always tough, especially as a single parent of two teens.  I tried to mesh my schedule with their, sleeping while they were in school, but it wasn't always possible, especially if some task required that I be available during the day.

Eves wasn't bad, although I did discover that when we worked 4-12 I tended to stay up later (2AM and more) than when we changed the shift to 3-11.  In that case, I was home before midnight, and usually in bed by midnight.   Just something about the "witching hour."

[Firelock76]

Inward-facing cameras are nothing more than the latest buzz-phrase from politicians who just HAVE to say SOMETHING about everything.

The only thing they're good for is telling you what the engineer was doing prior to the crash.  Asleep or not asleep, texting or not texting, you name it.

Unless the idea is to keep the employee's fear factor up.

[Ulrich]

And fatigue is really just the tip of the iceberg. In my experience  most people are dealing with serious mental problems...  stress related disorders, serious anger issues, mental breakdown, and depression. Just getting enough sleep won't fix that. 

[Euclid]

The issue of fatigue goes way beyond the simple cause of working long and hard.  A deeper understanding of shift work disorder is emerging and it poses a staggering challenge for the transportation industry. 

The problem is that fatigue cannot be eliminated merely by adequate rest.  So employees must either be medically tested or automatically monitored for fatigue.  Either approach is bound to be seen as far more intrusive and onerous than the contentious inward facing cameras ever dreamed of being. 

[Ulrich]

Part of the problem with fatigue is that rules and regulated work hours don't diminish it. What happens if a worker becomes tired after only two hours on the job? That's happened to me.. you feel compelled to push on because telling your boss that you need a sleep break won't go over too well with most employers. Sometimes I can work 16 hours at a stretch without experiencing fatigue while at other times I'm pretty much spent after only a few hours. In transportation it might be best to give workers some discretion in deciding when they need to book off for rest, instead of telling them when they should be tired. Better to park it for a couple of hours or have a relief crew come out than have to deal with a serious accident.

[henry6]

Yes.  It amazes me how contemporary businesses and managers have turned away or thrown away or otherwise disregard all the time and motion and fatigue studies done and accepted.  Thus the 8 hour day and 40 hour work week worked well for quantity and quality production as well as a productive and healthy employee.  Today, in all businesses and not just railroading, employees scared of losing their jobs are forced into disregarding their own health and productivity by working up to 12 hours a day and as many days a week the boss orders.  Never mind the overtime pay issue, it is irrelevant to this discussion.  Fatigue through overwork and the attending stress diminishes the value in both quantity and quality of the product or service.  Management is probably losing more than they are gaining in the slave like conditions they have produced mistakenly believing they will make more money.   They may not be producing enough more to beat the profit margin nor the quality of product to induce reordering.

[Firelock76]

How can you NOT care about worker fatigue and it's effect on performance?  Even a hard-charger like General Patton said you can't expect troops to continue an attack after 48 hours, they'd be too exhausted and would have to be pulled out of the line.

Even a cold-blooded bottom-liner should have the sense to realize tired workers make mistakes, and mistakes cost money, sometimes a little, but usually a whole lot.

Bottom-liners may not care about people, but they sure care about the profit margin.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

That presentation is relevant to this thread because John Kneiling appeared to not care about the effects of such matters on worker performance.  Contrast with many columns in Trains by Don Phillips (and others).

- Paul North.   

[schlimm]

Dr. Reid is a superb researcher and a good panelist.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Related to "working hours", this showed up in my e-mail box today, - a panel discussion on the FAA's new regulations for scheduling and managing U.S.-based pilot flight time, duty and rest. The rule is based on the building body of sleep science that demonstrates the correlation between sleep and performance:

From: Diana F Marek

Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 12:46 PM

To: Icarus Society ([e-mail])

Subject: Icarus Society Event: - Tues. April 1 @ 5:15 pm : Aviation Rest & Fatigue Regulations for Pilots - Panel Discussion 

REMINDER:  Icarus Event - Tomorrow at 5:15 pm at the Transportation Center 

Mark your calendar for our upcoming Icarus Society (Aviation Interest Group) event - Tuesday, April 1st..   All are welcome.  Please share this announcement with others you think may be interested.  (See below for other aviation events scheduled in the coming months.) 

The NU Transportation Center Icarus Society presents.......
The Science of Sleep:  Aviation Rest and Fatigue Regulations for Pilots - a Panel Discussion"
Tuesday - April 1, 2014 - 5:15 pm

Location:  Northwestern University Transportation Center, Chambers Hall, 600 Foster, Evanston - Lower Level 

Speakers: Noam Alon, Director of the United Airlines Network Operations Center

Dr. Kathryn Reid, Research Associate Professor in the Department of Neurology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine & Associate Director of the Circadian Rhythms & Sleep Research Program

 The FAA has adopted new regulations for scheduling and managing U.S.-based pilot flight time, duty and rest. The rule is based on the building body of sleep science that demonstrates the correlation between sleep and performance. Come listen to two experts discuss the biology of sleep and the impact to the U.S. Airline industry.

About the Speakers:

 Noam Alon is Director of the United Airlines Network Operations Center.  He is responsible for providing centralized direction and coordination of operational and service aspects for nearly 6,000 daily flights around the globe. In this capacity, he is focused on schedule integrity, customer convenience, and operating profit. Noam is also a United Airlines pilot, having flown both 737 and 727 jet aircraft for the airline. He recently was part of a core team of leaders responsible for United's preparation and transition to the new pilot flight and duty regulations, FAR 117.  He earned his MBA from Kellogg in 2008. He works out of United's Operations Center in the Willis Tower in downtown Chicago.

 Dr. Kathryn Reid received her PhD from the University of Adelaide in Australia in 1998. Dr Reid's research interests are aimed at gaining a greater understanding of the relationship between the sleep and circadian systems with health and safety. Current research areas include, understanding the basis and treatment of circadian rhythm sleep disorders, the effects of sleep loss on performance and safety, and the relationship between sleep and risk for metabolic and cardiovascular disease.  Dr Reid also has extensive experience in the study of the impact of shift work on sleep, performance and health in the workplace. She has received funding from the National Academies of Science/Transportation Research Board, National Institutes of Health, National Space and Biomedical Research Institute, Philips Consumer Lifestyles and has published her work in internationally recognized peer reviewed journals.  She is a leading expert in sleep research and has presented her work at numerous national and international conferences. 

Diana F. Marek Assistant Director Transportation Center

Celebrating 60 Years of Excellence  1954-2014

Northwestern University 600 Foster St. Evanston, Il 60208-4055

847-491-2280

[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> http://www.transportation.northwestern.edu/

[dakotafred]

AgentKid

First, I met a woman RTC (dispatcher) through a friend, who had never heard of the word trick used to describe a shift. She found it very funny. I guess it is no longer in use on CP.

Knowing both applications of the word, I'd never stopped to think of the one in connection with the other. I can see why the dispatcher laughed ... even as I'm surprised at the usage she was familiar with! 

[schlimm]

AgentKid

Secondly I have seen various news stories over the years comparing the detrimental health effects of the railway system of straight shifts, and nursing and other jobs that use rotating shifts.

Rotating shifts for nurses is far from universal.  Around Chicago, they largely work regular shifts unless they float.

[AgentKid]

dakotafred

But the first-trick plant operator's job goes to work at the same time every day, and there's no reason the same person shouldn't be on it five days a week, 52 weeks a year (minus vacations).

Keep it simple -- bid jobs and observe seniority order. Everybody except the lower-seniority "relief" people can get into a rhythm instead of having to recalibrate his life every week, month or whatever the rotation is.

That's even the way it was done with most non-op jobs on the railroad when I worked there.

I understand that the graveyard shift is less desirable as steady fare than 8 to 4 (or 4 to 12). But I doubt it is an impediment to hiring, given the pay in (especially) a well-paying industry such as electrical generation. And the new hire can look forward a better schedule as he climbs the seniority ladder.

Great points.

First, I met a woman RTC (dispatcher) through a friend, who had never heard of the word trick used to describe a shift. She found it very funny. I guess it is no longer in use on CP.

Secondly I have seen various news stories over the years comparing the detrimental health effects of the railway system of straight shifts, and nursing and other jobs that use rotating shifts. The conclusion, one method is no better than the other, if you have to work overnight you're not going to be as healthy as someone who doesn't.

Bruce

[dakotafred]

lenzfamily

BaltACD

24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads.

That's why I got out of power generation in the plant operations end. Your life was run by a rotating shift schedule plus 'operational requirements' which covered just about any other block(s) of time when needed.  Sure, the money was good but it was no kind of life for me for the long run. 

I've never understood why some businesses -- power generation being one -- make things more difficult for themselves and their help with rotating shifts. (Power plants in North Dakota do it the same way as described by Charlie.)

Everybody understands that a locomotive engineer has to go when his train is ready, whether that's at 8 in the morning or 8 at night. But the first-trick plant operator's job goes to work at the same time every day, and there's no reason the same person shouldn't be on it five days a week, 52 weeks a year (minus vacations).

Keep it simple -- bid jobs and observe seniority order. Everybody except the lower-seniority "relief" people can get into a rhythm instead of having to recalibrate his life every week, month or whatever the rotation is.

That's even the way it was done with most non-op jobs on the railroad when I worked there.

I understand that the graveyard shift is less desirable as steady fare than 8 to 4 (or 4 to 12). But I doubt it is an impediment to hiring, given the pay in a good industry such as electrical generation. And the new hire can look forward to a better schedule as he climbs the seniority ladder.

I've known power-plant people (and, for that matter, coal miners) for 40 years. I've never met a single one -- including supervisors -- who liked rotating shifts or could justify them (beyond spreading the misery around). 

[schlimm]

Firelock76

Somewhere, he and DPM are looking down on us over a couple of glasses of V.O. and smiling.

More like a couple bottles and rolling on the floor in laughter.

[Firelock76]

Just to swing this fine discussion back a bit, I'm struck by the fact that even though Mr. Kneiling's been out of the picture for a long time he still has enough influence to provoke a discussion that's gone to eight pages and 100-plus posts.

Somewhere, he and DPM are looking down on us over a couple of glasses of V.O. and smiling.

[lenzfamily]

BaltACD

24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads.

That's why I got out of power generation in the plant operations end. Your life was run by a rotating shift schedule plus 'operational requirements' which covered just about any other block(s) of time when needed.  Sure, the money was good but it was no kind of life for me for the long run. 

All about keeping the grid up.....

Charlie

Chilliwack, BC

[BaltACD]

zugmann

CSSHEGEWISCH

Ridiculous hours and demands on the lower levels of management is not exclusive to railroads.

Never said it was exclusive.   But it's not a great way to attract real talent. (but we are drifting way off topic).

24/7/365 operations place demands upon all personel that the 8-5 M-F will never know, understand or appreciate what it provides for them - those demands are not exclusive to railroads.