Dave, your stories are priceless! I know the name John Kneiling, as my father-in-law was a "Trains" subscriber I remember the "Professional Iconoclast" columns, but as I wasn't a railfan at the time I didn't pay much attention to them or even knew what he was talking about.
Considering that out of the ordinary fantrip he put together for you it sounds like Mr. Kneiling, like most iconoclasts, had a real sense of humor and a heart of gold under that gruff exterior.
I read Kneiling as youngster in TRAINS, and thought many of his ideas excellent. I did not understand the political limitations and wondered why the railroads were not moving faster. I also got to know the man, because he organized many of the fan-trips in the New York area, always doing something weird, like a flatcar pushed and occupied by railfans in front of five Third Avenue Elevated gate cars up the Express Track of the elevated on a Sunday moring. That one time a fantrip made the front page of the New York Times with photo! Or the Bluebird articulated BMT subway train on streetcar and freight tracks in Brooklyn pulled by a Souh Brooklyn steeple-cab trolley equipped work and frieght motor. On his streetcar trips in the Bronx and Brooklyn (too often the last car on a particular line the Sunday after the last day, a Saturday, of regular service), I was the official pole puller and enjoyed the job which took all my arm muscle power. Another youngster my age was the seat-back reverser. And a third the switch iron manipulator. He very gruff and very demanding, but he liked youngsters, and he knew the experience of being useful around a railroad was even more valuable to a youngster than taking pictures. I would say, in retrospect, considering all he did for me as New York teenager, I would have to say I loved the man.
Another excellent older Train columnist, far more conservative technically, was Edward Hungerford, who also organized the wonderful Railroads On Parade show the NY Worlds Fare 1939-1940.
John Kneiling was a railfan who understood the industry. During the 1970's I rarely read Kneiling; mostly because I felt that he was on the conservative side of the divide and I wasn't. I was a railfan who liked trains but really didn't understand the industry. I was a union member working in another industry. I don't think that I was alone among Trains readers. David P Morgan also understood the industry and that is why he hired Kneiling. I think that he knew there were readers who didn't read Kneiling and I don't think he cared. Kneiling was written for those who both could and might change the industry; not mere train watchers.
I read Kneiling's column in the June 1978 Trains issue quoting his last two paragraphs: Some readers claim that I shouldn't pick on railroaders this way. It is said they're doing the best they can. If so, someone should give them guidance. The theme is simple,and it is not a novel. A railroad can be a useful mode of conveyance, but it is not a toy and must be used effectively. The real world counts its money, and capital is not free(unless you believe the politicians). Now who will run the railroads as if he really means it?
Some of us who failed to read Kneiling in the 1970's might learn something if we re-read him today.
On the other hand, I wonder what he would have thought of some of the things that have happened to railroading since the end of his columns. He lived, but (as far as I can remember) didn't comment, into the era of containerization that began around 1983 or so. Double-stacking was a concept he didn't hit on, but I'm certain he would have approved of. Distributed Power and Positive Train Control (whenever we get to that), and electronic air brakes (whenever we get to that) are all things he would have approved of.He'd still be grousing about yards and how much they slow down operations. He'd be sorely disappointed that the Michigan Central line from Joliet to Porter didn't become a major bypass route around Chicago (I remember that column--he was disappointed at the time, but since then most of the line has disappeared completely). Rotary dumpers would take too long for unloading coal. He'd probably have ideas for passenger rail that other people have had already, but nobody wants to spend the money on. He'd still be stirring the pot...only difference is that the pot is at least simmering now.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Excellent points, SanDiego. As for me, I found his Integral Train the least interesting of his many lively ideas on the railroad scene, detracting from rail's wonderful versatility and delivering a transportation product very narrow in its application and general usefulness.
I think -- in those days, given the political restrictions on profitability -- he was merely seeking a way to wring what little value was available from an otherwise-compromised and near-hopeless mode, rail.
I have to think, given rail's renaissance, he would have other, better, ideas for us today.
I didn't think much of Kneiling when I first read his columns, and many years of experience, both in and out of the railroad industry, have done nothing to change my opinion but to reinforce it instead.
He struck me as a perfect example of the high-priced know-it-all consultant who comes up with an expensive, complicated engineering solution to a what is essentially a political problem.
The railroad industry had already started exploring the unit train concept in the early 1960s but the major obstacle was obtaining ICC approval for unit-train rates that were considerably lower than single-car rates. One example of the difficulties faced by the railroad industry was Southern's "Big John" grain rate case (SOU wanted to offer lower rates for grain moving in 100-ton covered hoppers vs. 40' boxcars): It took "four years of deliberation, 13 hearings before federal appellate courts, and two trips to the U.S. Supreme Court" before the Southern could offer the lower rates. (from Encyclopedia of North American Railroads; Middleton, et al; 2007)
Against this background Kneiling's Integral Train concept seems naive in the extreme. What's the good of this fancy train if a railroad can't offer the rates to haul traffic with it?
Kurt Hayek
Special tanks to Carl for the additional information on John Kneiling; there is also a thread at railroad.net -- transferred into the "Railroads in Media" category after the "Famous People in Railroading" category was discontinued a year or so ago.
Kneiling's son turned up about two years ago and supplied a year of his death, but nothing regarding his residence during his later years (might have been Staten Island) or his final resting place. I would appreciate any help with this so that he can be memorialized at findagrave.com
Euclid I don’t think Trains would have ever had Kneiling or anyone like him if it were not for DPM. I think DPM could appreciate a good iconoclast. But my sense is that the readership might have largely opposed Kneiling. Have there ever been any polling figures showing agreement or disagreement with Kneiling within the railroad industry, among the Trains readership, and within Kalmbach? If no polling results are available, what would you guess they would have been?
I don’t think Trains would have ever had Kneiling or anyone like him if it were not for DPM. I think DPM could appreciate a good iconoclast. But my sense is that the readership might have largely opposed Kneiling. Have there ever been any polling figures showing agreement or disagreement with Kneiling within the railroad industry, among the Trains readership, and within Kalmbach?
If no polling results are available, what would you guess they would have been?
Top polish the term, slightly for some younger readers:
This is from Dictionary.com: i·con·o·clast
/aɪˈkɒnəˌklæst/ Show Spelled [ahy-kon-uh-klast] Show IPA
Thank you, Carl. I have also seen this. I would call it suggestive but not conclusive -- it's a big country. I'd like to find one site with my command, 'john g kneiling obituary.'
This guy seems to have disappeared into the mists. For Internet purposes, he may have died too early.
I hope this works: http://www.ancientfaces.com/person/john-g-kneiling/89751826
CShaveRR Google is your friend...he was born 1/18/1920, died 1/22/2000. So he was a bit older than DPM. (But yes, I remember nothing of a mention in Trains at the time.)I have the book, and have looked at it again from time to time.
Google is your friend...he was born 1/18/1920, died 1/22/2000. So he was a bit older than DPM. (But yes, I remember nothing of a mention in Trains at the time.)I have the book, and have looked at it again from time to time.
Good job, Shave; but could you site your source? I've Googled also-- starting a long time ago -- but have found nothing except a post about his death (from a supposed son) on TrainOrders.com. I did not take this as definitive.
He made Trains Trains. He was like the Rush Limbaugh of railroading
Going by the published letters in Trains, Kneiling caught all kinds of grief from readers, particularly those associated with labor. I should dig out some of my old issues from that era for their annual statements of circulation; reader rage may have taken a toll.
But Euclid is right; DPM, a great writer himself, would have been able to recognize Kneiling's virtue not only as an industry thinker but as a columnist.
Kneiling's column ran for a lot longer than 5 years; more like about 17. I want to say from between 1966 and about 1983.
He was discontinued in a most unceremonious manner, on the pretext of freeing up more space for "news." (Don Phillips, in his first "Potomac Pundit" incarnation, was axed at the same time and for the same stated reason; altho I always figured he was sacrificed just to camouflage the real objective of showing Kneiling the door.)
DPM didn't have that much longer to go at Trains himself, and my theory is he agreed to get rid of Kneiling himself rather than leave that controversial chore to the new man. (Morgan himself had to go, I had from an insider, because his emphysema wouldn't let him do the job any longer.)
The way Kalmbach lost track of Kneiling for its readers, after his long service, is a disgrace. We never even saw an obit; to this day, I don't know when he died.
All I know is, for this reader the departures of Kneiling and then Morgan marked the beginning of a Dark Ages at Trains from which the magazine was a long time recovering.
Yes, I had some doubts at times, but on the whole he made what were to me good points.
There have been many changes in railroading since I became interested back in the fifties. I doubt that a young boy would be able to find an agent who would let him in to his office and broaden his knowledge of railroading--and it may be as difficult to find men in road service who are able to talk with him.
Johnny
Businesses where there is a lot of accumulated tradition bordering on dogma are fertile ground for the iconoclasts. Kneiling could sure upset an applecart. As I recall, he was almost as unpopular among Trains readers as was the annual all-diesel issue.
Kneiling was a strong formative influence on my thinking, both through columns and correspondence. He was delightfully curmudgeonly -- although that could take a bit of getting used to!
Iconoclasts are not usually known for tactful demeanor... ;-}
Very forward thinking at his time. But he made sense to many, especially investors and businessmen. He Showed how to harness the value of the equipment and with marketing and contracts, turn that value into income. Against him were the "we don't do things that way" railroaders from the executive offices down and those who were afraid to confront both regulators and customers.
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It's been nearly fifty years since Trains ran a cover story entitled "This Train can Save Railroading; Why Isn't it Used?" The story dealt with a proposal by the late John G. Kneiling, an industrial engineer, for a service which would have gone one step beyond the unit trains which were under development at the time -- single-commodity services shuttling from one shipper to one customer, and eschewing most of the things which seemed to make railroading such a fascinating business. The article, and several others which followed it, generated a lot of controversy, and it wasn't long before Trains Editor David P. Morgan, whom a lot of us still consider America's most talented rail journalist, set Kneiling up with a monthly column which ran for about five years. Kneiling also published a book. "Integral Train Systems", which can be found today in the engineering libraries on many campuses. To say that Mr. Kneiling was not very tactful, particularly with regard to social commentary in the polarization of the late Sixties, would be an understatement. But in reviewing his articles and columns, it's amazing how many of his proposals and suggestions were either adopted or seem well-suited to the next wave of technological and entrepreneurial progress. And many of them were inculcated as part of the process that turned railroading back into a growing industry, and one with a positive image.
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