Film crew death

[vsmith]

railfanjohn

Here is another item related to this tragedy:

http://www.thestate.com/2014/05/13/3443724/allman-drops-ga-lawsuit-against.html

 

Somehow I dont think the film company is going to have the same such luck with the other lawsuits, especially the family of the girl who died.

[railfanjohn]

Here is another item related to this tragedy:

http://www.thestate.com/2014/05/13/3443724/allman-drops-ga-lawsuit-against.html

 

[Falcon48]

Mookie

Let the parties argue a little.  So far, they have kept it civil.  If you stop all disagreements, you won't have anything left except the Chatterbox and the Lounge.  Think about it.  Weather, chocolate cake and a little train watching. 

My $$$ is on the film crew found someone walking their dog and asked them if it was ok to film on the tracks. He told them "sure, go ahead".  See how simple this is? 

I agree wilth you.  I don't like to speculate on accidents like this either, because some of the parties are likely doing a lot of posturing right now.  The actual facts will come out eventually.  My experience is that they are often much different than what everybody initially thought was the case.  If you want an example of this, look at the NTSFB reprot on the Midland TX accident where a UP train plowed into a parade float.  The early reports of the accident blamed the driver, but that's not what NTSB concluded (they blamed the city, and had pretty compelling story).

That said, at least as far as I've read down the posts on this thread, I don't see any reason for the moderators to get involved.  I haven't seen any real nastiness or political posturing (maybe I haven't read far enough down the posts).  Speculation on a website like this is pretty harmless. 

[Anonymous]

ACY

I have a feeling (unsubstantiated) that the engine crew's view of the bridge was obscured by the curve, the trees, and possibly by some pulp cars right up until they got through the curve and could see into the "tunnel" of that truss bridge. The trees etc. also might have damped the effect of the air horn. I suspect (again, unsubstantiated) that the engineer had no inkling of a problem until he was less than 1/4 mile from impact. One report said the train was traveling 58 mph.

At 58 mph, neither advance visibility nor a louder horn would have changed the outcome much...they were still on a bridge with a bed that they were trying to drag off the tracks!

[usmc1401]

On Friday evening 3/7/2014 the parents of the lady killed attended a memorial march in Los Angeles CA. Many people in the industry attended and it made the TV news in L.A.

[ACY Tom]

A couple things: I don't think there was ever any shot to be "gotten". Of course, I don't know how film people do these things, but I understood this was a preliminary setup for a shot that was actually supposed to be taken on the next day. One excuse for the lax safety procedures was that this was not strictly part of the schedule. If I have that correctly, it's all the more tragic for that. Now, why would a 27 year sentence be appropriate? It's not unreasonable to expect that a person who is 27 today should live to the age of 90. So maybe the benchmark should be the 62 years Sarah didn't get to live. It's not unusual for the safest path to be towards the train. If my car is stalled on a crossing, I would get out in a hurry and run in the direction the train is coming from. To stand near the car would be to risk getting hit with shrapnel when the car gets hit. To stand with the car between me and the locomotive is to risk having the entire car thrown at me. Running to the side (i.e., down the road) runs the risk of the shrapnel. If I run in the direction the train is coming FROM, the locomotives will pass me before the collision and knock the car farther away from me. Of course, if the train goes on the ground, all bets are off. Lastly, the site of the accident is interesting. The double track approaches from the south, and makes a slight left turn at the point where the double track goes to single and the Rayonier spur comes in from the west. There is a track between the two mains where wood pulp cars are often stored. I saw some there yesterday morning, the 6th of March. The tracks are also lined with trees on both sides. I have a feeling (unsubstantiated) that the engine crew's view of the bridge was obscured by the curve, the trees, and possibly by some pulp cars right up until they got through the curve and could see into the "tunnel" of that truss bridge. The trees etc. also might have damped the effect of the air horn. I suspect (again, unsubstantiated) that the engineer had no inkling of a problem until he was less than 1/4 mile from impact. One report said the train was traveling 58 mph.

[vsmith]

mudchicken

Murphy Siding

      Can anyone explain why a movie about Greg Allman needs to have a scene with a bed set up on a railroad bridge?

Drugs

It was intended to be for a dream sequence in the movie.

[D.Carleton]

Leo_Ames

Don't you see the fatal spin for the Sikorsky plane standing in for a German Gotha bomber in Hell's Angels that killed a person or two?

All these poor decisions remind me a bit of what happened to Vic Morrow on the set of the Twilight Zone movie. Being far too lax with safety leading to tragedy sadly isn't a new phenomenon for film making. 

"I must have killed more men than Cecil B. DeMille." - The Waco Kid

[mudchicken]

Murphy Siding

      Can anyone explain why a movie about Greg Allman needs to have a scene with a bed set up on a railroad bridge?

Drugs

[Murphy Siding]

      Can anyone explain why a movie about Greg Allman needs to have a scene with a bed set up on a railroad bridge?

[Leo_Ames]

Don't you see the fatal spin for the Sikorsky plane standing in for a German Gotha bomber in Hell's Angels that killed a person or two?

All these poor decisions remind me a bit of what happened to Vic Morrow on the set of the Twilight Zone movie. Being far too lax with safety leading to tragedy sadly isn't a new phenomenon for film making. 

[vsmith]

Semp, not true. There are many many films where a shot that someone got killed were used in the final film. Two that come to mind, Flight of the Phoenix where pilot Paul Manz died when the plane he was flying for passing shots crashed on landing. Those flyby shots are still in the film. The other is the Vin Diesel "xXx" where a stuntman jumped off a bridge but the landing went wrong and he was killed, but the the actual stunt shot is still in the film.

As for "getting the shot" it can take hours to set up the props, set up the cameras, check the lighting levels, get people on the set start shooting, usually multiple takes, and then take everything apart and moved off the location. Thats why I really cannot fathom how anyone thought they could set up a full frame bed and mattress and shoot scenes on an active railroad bridge. They wouldn't do this on an active airport runway but thats basically what they did.

[BaltACD]

Semper Vaporo

As I understand it, it would not make any difference if he "got the shot", there is a "rule" (probably not really written down) that says any shot where someone actually got hurt cannot be used in the final product.  I remember some other movie where a car crashed into a lobby and hit a desk where a stunt man was sitting, he was supposed to just be pushed back by the desk when the car hit it, but the car hit too hard and he was severely injured.  Later it was discovered that the scene had gotten into the released movie and the producer and director were "aghast" that it had not been "left on the cutting room floor like it should have been".

At this point, I hope the whole movie/video is canned and forgotten by the financiers.

I suspect all film shot at the location will be shown - at the trial!

[Semper Vaporo]

As I understand it, it would not make any difference if he "got the shot", there is a "rule" (probably not really written down) that says any shot where someone actually got hurt cannot be used in the final product.  I remember some other movie where a car crashed into a lobby and hit a desk where a stunt man was sitting, he was supposed to just be pushed back by the desk when the car hit it, but the car hit too hard and he was severely injured.  Later it was discovered that the scene had gotten into the released movie and the producer and director were "aghast" that it had not been "left on the cutting room floor like it should have been".

At this point, I hope the whole movie/video is canned and forgotten by the financiers.

[BaltACD]

One question, we haven't asked - and to date I haven't seen answered.

Since the Director thought his 'scene' was so important that he felt it was worth putting his crew's lives in harms way -  Did he get the shot?

Death in the pursuit of 'art' is only worthwhile if the 'art' desired is created.

This in no way excuses the Director's callous disregard for the safety of his crew - 27 years in prison would be poetic for the 27 years of Ms. Jones life that his actions caused to end. 

[petitnj]

Interesting that the escape route (toward the oncoming train) was really the safest way to go. If you go the other direction you would be hit by the debris. Which most likely was one of the biggest source of injury.

Second, the bridge clearly has a wide grating which would have been a safe place for anyone. The concept of being sucked into an oncoming train is totally bogus, but I am sure the crew that took refuge along the side of the track felt an incredible wind that felt like a vacuum. If they had just laid down on the walkway, the train would pass. I suspect that most of the injuries were due to trying to stay with the bed and film equipment that was scattered along the track. 

[tree68]

I think that most of us have that in the backs of our minds.  What gets expressed here is the outrage that there are people stupid enough to cause an incident like this.  

As for the rest of the public, perhaps the railroads need to start pointing this out - not just that there was a crew on the train - but that they are now dealing with the memory as well.  Put a human face on that faceless train.

Many of the folks who do commit suicide by train, as well as incidents like this, likely wouldn't consider doing so in the middle of a busy highway - it's too personal - you can see the people's faces.

[BaltACD]

edblysard

One thing that bugs me about all of this, from all sides…while sadly a young lady died, and another one was injured for the rest of her life, along with the others who were hurt….no one seems to give a flip about the train crew.

“The Train” is spoken of as if the locomotive is some impersonal unmanned robot; no mention of the fact there was an engineer and conductor who have to live with this too.

While I agree.  The reality of crews running trains on line of road for any length of time, The question isn't will I kill someone with a train I am operating, the only real question is WHEN.

Between, road crossing incidents, trespassers, deliberate suicides and all the other forms of stupidity that happen on and too close to the tracks, it is only a matter of time until a crew operating a train has someone die as a result of that trains operation.

Would that it was otherwise ... but it's not.

[daveklepper]

I agree.  Terrible to be an engineer in any situation like that.   But it is not new.   Doug Riddle went into this kind of thing quite thoroughly in bis excellent  book.   And that photograph of a truck trailer straddeling the track with the driver and helper standing by the cab take from the front of the freight locomotive just stopping in time is permenantly engraved in my mind.

[edblysard]

One thing that bugs me about all of this, from all sides…while sadly a young lady died, and another one was injured for the rest of her life, along with the others who were hurt….no one seems to give a flip about the train crew.

“The Train” is spoken of as if the locomotive is some impersonal unmanned robot; no mention of the fact there was an engineer and conductor who have to live with this too.

[vsmith]

I called it pretty concisely (allegedly), funny how when one reads about this they can just see what happened...(allegedly)

The Hollywood Reporter story stated pretty much what I could see in my mind, a no-budget film missing key personal (medic for example(allegedly)), no coordination with the railroad because they had been told in no uncertain terms NO(allegedly), and a director who doesn't let "the man" tell him how to create his art and willing to take dangerous risks with his cast and crew to get "the shot'(allegedly). The comment about the crew bragging about "guerrilla film-making " in the past pretty much sealed it(allegedly). The director Miller now IS going to face prosecution for this, that WILL happen I have no doubt about that, whether its for murder or manslaughter remains to be seen(allegedly). 

If they only had 60 second warning a train was coming(allegedly), how in the hell did the director expect them to get a full bedframed bed OFF the bridge along with everything else and all the people(allegedly)? This guy deserves no sympathy...he deserves jail time IHMO (allegedly)

Its really sad to see something like this happen, I keep thinking if the filmakers had bothered to think, they could have found several RR bridges either on little used branchline or even abandoned lines, probably in very close proximity,  where they could have set up and shot as long as it took without risk. To decide "No I want THIS bridge" and set up on an active RR mainline with a complete disregard for your crews safety(allegedly), is truly astonishing. (allegedly)

[tree68]

BaltACD

...displayed a total lack of safety awareness...

Or perhaps just a total disregard for safety...

[edblysard]

“This was no accident,” says Ray Brown, president of the Motion Picture Studio Mechanics union local 479 in Atlanta and a Jones colleague, suggesting the incident was avoidable. “When I have done train work or around trains for smaller productions up to major blockbusters, there are always several railroad personnel there with their hard hats, glasses and radios, and I can’t imagine a more structured safety protocol even beyond airlines than the rail system.”

Again, had CSX given permission, they would have insisted on a flagman and lookout being present and involved.

 

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

oltmannd

Can anyone puzzle out what happened from this article?  Was the entire film crew tresspassing?

Here is a very detailed article published by a Hollywood paper

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/midnight-rider-accident-sarah-jones-death-gregg-allman-685976?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_knordyke

 

7,000 ton 60 MPH Gorilla defeats 'Gorilla Filmmaker'

The article indicates this production company had done scenes in other productions and displayed a total lack of safety awareness, just as they had for the scene that caused Ms. Jones death.

I can foresee a Voluntary Manslaughter charge being filed againt the responsible party(s).

[blue streak 1]

One has to wonder if this film company was incorporated just for this film ?  Someone once said that many films  are made by a one time only company ?  Might be  for legal and money reasons ?

[blue streak 1]

oltmannd

Can anyone puzzle out what happened from this article?  Was the entire film crew tresspassing?

Here is a very detailed article published by a Hollywood paper

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/midnight-rider-accident-sarah-jones-death-gregg-allman-685976?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_knordyke

 

[ACY Tom]

I guess my reaction has a lot to do with her youth and the senseless nature of her death. "The death of an old man is not a tragedy," they say. I'm sure the others mentioned were fine people. But by contrast, the death of a young and vibrant person like Sarah is a tragedy. Her death deserved and still deserves special attention because it should be a lightning rod for action; and I saw this as a very strong message of disinterest from an industry that specializes in sending messages.

[DEDieckmann]

ACY

Did I miss something at the Academy Awards last night? Before the Great Display, there was talk of people wearing black ribbons as a reminder of the death of Sarah Jones, but I never saw any. The Academy said they couldn't put a mention into the Pageant because she didn't die within the right time frame. Poor planning on her part, I guess. Then they said there might be some mention. I paid close attention to the tribute to those who have passed away and almost missed it. Her name flashed on the bottom of the screen just as they were cutting away for a commercial. I saw the name, but the lettering below it was too small to read. I tried to move closer, but it was gone and the commercial was on before I could get closer. It may have been on the screen for two seconds; three at most. I guess that's my fault for having bad eyes. So now we know how seriously Hollywood takes her death, and I suspect we can now make safe predictions as to the long-term impact her death will have on the film industry. Very sad. They think of her as just another face on the cutting room floor. I may never watch the academy awards again. I don't even feel much like capitalizing it. Sarah, You deserved much better from the hypocrites who called you a Colleague.

On the actual show itself, they honored about 30 people in memorium, mostly big names that the viewing audience could relate to. The small print flashed on screen that you refer to (with the picture and name of Sarah Jones) noted you should go to Oscars.com for more info. I did. There, they named and pictured about 50 more individuals, and then named another 70 or 80 individuals who passed away. So while she got less than those shown on tv, she got more recognition than 120 or so others, who were only mentioned on the web site.

[ACY Tom]

Did I miss something at the Academy Awards last night? Before the Great Display, there was talk of people wearing black ribbons as a reminder of the death of Sarah Jones, but I never saw any. The Academy said they couldn't put a mention into the Pageant because she didn't die within the right time frame. Poor planning on her part, I guess. Then they said there might be some mention. I paid close attention to the tribute to those who have passed away and almost missed it. Her name flashed on the bottom of the screen just as they were cutting away for a commercial. I saw the name, but the lettering below it was too small to read. I tried to move closer, but it was gone and the commercial was on before I could get closer. It may have been on the screen for two seconds; three at most. I guess that's my fault for having bad eyes. So now we know how seriously Hollywood takes her death, and I suspect we can now make safe predictions as to the long-term impact her death will have on the film industry. Very sad. They think of her as just another face on the cutting room floor. I may never watch the academy awards again. I don't even feel much like capitalizing it. Sarah, You deserved much better from the hypocrites who called you a Colleague.

[Mookie]

vsmith

Having read as much of this I can find, in my own mind I am pretty convinced what we had here was an alleged case of  "give an inch, take a mile" mixed with a little guerrilla film-making. This is all my own speculation (allegedly) but it will be very interesting to see how this shakes out (not assuming any out of court settlements) but I suspect a film company may be about to be sued out of existence (allegedly).

IMHO having gotten permission from Rayonier (allegedly) to film on the adjacent property but not from CSX (allegedly) to film on the tracks, this being a small production with limited budget and an on-the-fly film schedule, someone (allegedly) decided 'it won't take that long' to take advantage of the apparent lack of trains and set up and shoot on the bridge on the sly. Hence no flagmen, no fall protection, and none of the safety measures that would be de rigueur on any other major film production. and they (allegedly) got caught unaware because they had no schedule, no CSX flagman, no nothing to tell them another train was approaching, and a young woman payed for someones (allegedly) throwing caution to the wind because (allegedly) 'they just had to get that shot'.

Its not uncommon to have some very bad accidents on smaller productions simply because the film-makers (allegedly) try to cut corners or shoot scenes in places they are not supposed to be anywhere near in the first place. Again this is just my personal perspective but what I'm saying is not unheard of (allegedly).

Sorry for all the (alleged)  use of the word "alleged", but just watch - this is going to get (allegedly) very very ugly (allegedly) very very fast and the number of lawsuits flying around (allegedly) are going to look like a Biblical plague of locust (allegedly). Anyone speculating should protect themselves (allegedly).

Bingo!