Montana Coal and the Milwaukee Road

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I've always thought it was weird that my electricity is produced 200 miles east of my house, using coal from 500 miles west of my house,yet, the coal travels either around S.D. to the north, or the south, to get from point A to point B.

Your time is coming. The DM&E will eventually give you a closer look at the whole process.

The DM&E can't raise any money. Its just another pie in the sky scheme.

[Anonymous]

On another one of those "may have already been answered some time ago" questions, I have read where one of the MIlwaukee's board members (a guy named Rockefeller) had pushed for the original PCE project to be a joint effort between the Milwaukee and CNW. At the time of the onset of Milwaukee's PCE construction, what was the farthest westward extent of the CNW line through South Dakota, and would a joint venture have necessitated a more southerly starting point in southwestern SD? If so, wouldn't that have put a CMStP&P/CNW PCE right through the northern portion of Wyoming's PRB?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I've always thought it was weird that my electricity is produced 200 miles east of my house, using coal from 500 miles west of my house,yet, the coal travels either around S.D. to the north, or the south, to get from point A to point B.

Your time is coming. The DM&E will eventually give you a closer look at the whole process.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

(1) I once remember someone saying something to the effect of "had Montana's coal been in Oklahoma rather than Montana the CB&Q would have gone the way of the Rock and the Rock would have done quite well.

I know that the majority of Montana coal is in the Powder River Basin, but I don't know the full geographic extent of this basin. So, did the Milwaukee Road's Pudget Sound extension come anywhere close to this coal, and if so, how close was the Milwaukee Road to missing the traffic boom, and finally, could this coal have saved the Milwaukee Road?

It's important to remember that while the Rock Island went bankrupt, it did not go away, or at least not to the extent of some other railroads. Perhaps the biggest portion which is abandoned are large portions of its Tucumcari to Memphis line (and I suspect that BNSF wishes it had this rather than the route it uses between Amarillo and Memphis now), but when one sees that Houston to Minneapolis, the "Golden State" route to Santa Rosa, NM and Chicago to Council Bluffs remains in use, sometimes well-used, it can be said that much of the Rock Island still lives today.

The former Milwaukee line across South Dakota still hosts one loaded coal train, destined for the plant in Big Stone City, SD. These trains usually originate in the Powder River Basin in Wyoming and are routed via Sheridan and Forsyth. However, no through coal trains use this route. Coal trains loaded in the Sheridan, Wyoming area (Decker, Montana) destined for the Twin Cities operate via ex-NP line across North Dakota; trains loaded in the Gillette area and on the Orin Line destined for the Twin Cities usually operate through Alliance and Lincoln, NE, then north through Sioux City and Willmar.

I've always thought it odd that the former MILW line was not used for through coal trains. Granted, the improvements made since the late 1970s along the ex-NP line provide it with greater capacity, but this route requires much more power than the ex-MILW line. Today, nearly every coal train east out of Glendive has a manned helper at least as far as Fryburg, ND. (Though they have been tried on occasion, distributed power is not regularly used east of Glendive.) The Big Stone trains do run with distributed power, due to their size.

The main advantage of the ex-NP route is that it better accesses where the coal is going....for right now, anyway....places like Stanton, ND, Fargo, Grand Forks, Hoot Lake, MN, Cohasset, MN, Virginia, MN, Becker, MN, and of course, Superior, WI. Another reason for the NP route being used is that the power for the coal trains is maintained at the ex-NP roundhouse at Glendive, Montana.

I've always thought it was weird that my electricity is produced 200 miles east of my house, using coal from 500 miles west of my house,yet, the coal travels either around S.D. to the north, or the south, to get from point A to point B.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Was the spur just west of Roundup to Klein a source of steam locomotive coal ?

You were right. "Mine #3 Spur" was west of Roundup, about a mile west of the Roundup Depot.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

[quote
I take it then that after the wires came down, either the length of a little less than 1/2 mile did not affect the O2 supply of mid-train helpers, or Milwaukee never had occassion to use pushers and midtrain helpers here after de-electrification? (You may have answered in the Milwaukee thread, but I ain't going back through that compilation!)

BTW, did Boylston have a grade westbound or eastbound, or was it essentially flat?

Tunnel No. 75, Johnson Creek Tunnel, is 1783' long. Coming from the east, a 2% grade gradually begins to level out about a half mile from the tunnel, is 0% about mid-way through the tunnel, and begins a gradual descent which turns into a 1% descending grade, then 1.6% about a half mile west of the west portal of the tunnel.

Helpers were abolished after June 15, 1974, however, for a period of a very few days in 1978, helpers were stationed at Beverly to assist some heavy wheat trains which were underpowered because of a system-wide power shortage that summer.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[VerMontanan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

(1) I once remember someone saying something to the effect of "had Montana's coal been in Oklahoma rather than Montana the CB&Q would have gone the way of the Rock and the Rock would have done quite well.

I know that the majority of Montana coal is in the Powder River Basin, but I don't know the full geographic extent of this basin. So, did the Milwaukee Road's Pudget Sound extension come anywhere close to this coal, and if so, how close was the Milwaukee Road to missing the traffic boom, and finally, could this coal have saved the Milwaukee Road?

It's important to remember that while the Rock Island went bankrupt, it did not go away, or at least not to the extent of some other railroads. Perhaps the biggest portion which is abandoned are large portions of its Tucumcari to Memphis line (and I suspect that BNSF wishes it had this rather than the route it uses between Amarillo and Memphis now), but when one sees that Houston to Minneapolis, the "Golden State" route to Santa Rosa, NM and Chicago to Council Bluffs remains in use, sometimes well-used, it can be said that much of the Rock Island still lives today.

The former Milwaukee line across South Dakota still hosts one loaded coal train, destined for the plant in Big Stone City, SD. These trains usually originate in the Powder River Basin in Wyoming and are routed via Sheridan and Forsyth. However, no through coal trains use this route. Coal trains loaded in the Sheridan, Wyoming area (Decker, Montana) destined for the Twin Cities operate via ex-NP line across North Dakota; trains loaded in the Gillette area and on the Orin Line destined for the Twin Cities usually operate through Alliance and Lincoln, NE, then north through Sioux City and Willmar.

I've always thought it odd that the former MILW line was not used for through coal trains. Granted, the improvements made since the late 1970s along the ex-NP line provide it with greater capacity, but this route requires much more power than the ex-MILW line. Today, nearly every coal train east out of Glendive has a manned helper at least as far as Fryburg, ND. (Though they have been tried on occasion, distributed power is not regularly used east of Glendive.) The Big Stone trains do run with distributed power, due to their size.

The main advantage of the ex-NP route is that it better accesses where the coal is going....for right now, anyway....places like Stanton, ND, Fargo, Grand Forks, Hoot Lake, MN, Cohasset, MN, Virginia, MN, Becker, MN, and of course, Superior, WI. Another reason for the NP route being used is that the power for the coal trains is maintained at the ex-NP roundhouse at Glendive, Montana.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

I think what was meant is that daylighting would have had to have been for entertainment value because in this particular instance, the tunnel was extremely dry, the rock extremely hard, it was relatively short, there was no timber cribbing or lining.

If ever there was a tunnel for which daylighting made no sense, Boylston was it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

I take it then that after the wires came down, either the length of a little less than 1/2 mile did not affect the O2 supply of mid-train helpers, or Milwaukee never had occassion to use pushers and midtrain helpers here after de-electrification? (You may have answered in the Milwaukee thread, but I ain't going back through that compilation!)

BTW, did Boylston have a grade westbound or eastbound, or was it essentially flat?

[MichaelSol]

I neglected to mention, and should have mentioned, "The Electric Way Across the Mountains," by Richard Steinheimer, soon to be re-released, which is a first class book by any measure.

Personal favorites: "The Olympian: a Ride to Remember," by Stanley Johnson, and Stan's "Milwaukee Road Revisited."

Best regards, Michael Sol

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Michael
Do you know what year the PCE opened for tri-level autoracks ?
Do you know the clearance, 19' ?
Did many autos get damaged by the current jumping from the catenary to antennas ?
Why was the WSS&YP shown on CMSP&P maps ? Did the Milwaukee own the ROW and lease it to the WSS&YP ?
Was the spur just west of Roundup to Klein a source of steam locomotive coal ?
What is your favorite book on the CMSP&P ?

The line was available for trilevel Autoracks beginning in October, 1963. The typical tunnel clearance below the trolley was approximately 20+ feet. There wasn't much chance of arcing on the DC system. What happened early on was auto antennae being left in the "up" position on the third level. ZAP! The solution was easy. Of course, after the covered autocarriers entered service, there was no problem.

Milwaukee owned the WSS&YP and leased it. In turn the lessee leased the equipment from MILW.

I seem to remember the Klein spur was east of Roundup. I'll have to check when I get home. It's been a while.

For books, there isn't really a significantly good historical book. Derleth's book "The Milwaukee Road, the First hundred Years," has good writing. Derleth was a good writer. But historical research was not his forte', and the book repeats a number of very significant errors in the historical record.

I used to consider "The Investor Pays," by Max Lowenthal as a model of investigatory writing into important railroad finance and history. However, after spending a week reviewing Lowenthal's working papers for the book, I changed my opinon considerably. Interestingly, one of his contentions, that the Milwaukee receivership of 1925 was not a "real" receivership, but contrived as a means of obtaining control by a special interest group, is much more strongly supported by the statistcal record than Lowenthal imagined.

Noel Holley's "The Milwaukee's Mighty Electrics," is very well done. Fred Hyde's book, "The Milwaukee Road," is likewise a very enjoyable book, and while primarily photographic, spent more than the usual amount of time obtaining knowledgeable and informed photo cutlines. Both of these gentlemen produced the "best of the best," as far as Milwaukee Road books that are "out there."

Best regards, Michael Sol

[nanaimo73]

Michael
Do you know what year the PCE opened for tri-level autoracks ?
Do you know the clearance, 19' ?
Did many autos get damaged by the current jumping from the catenary to antennas ?
Why was the WSS&YP shown on CMSP&P maps ? Did the Milwaukee own the ROW and lease it to the WSS&YP ?
Was the spur just west of Roundup to Klein a source of steam locomotive coal ?
What is your favorite book on the CMSP&P ?

[MichaelSol]

I think what was meant is that daylighting would have had to have been for entertainment value because in this particular instance, the tunnel was extremely dry, the rock extremely hard, it was relatively short, there was no timber cribbing or lining.

If ever there was a tunnel for which daylighting made no sense, Boylston was it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Murphy Siding]

I find entertainment value just in contemplating the idea of daylighting a tunnel just for the entertainment value of it![:-,]. I would suspect that the Milwaukee * entertained* the idea from time to time.[}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

I can suggest two reasons why they never daylighted Boyleston Tunnel. No need and no money.

While I have not walked or rode through the tunnel I am familiar with the local geology. The tunnel is in basalt rock. Basalt is a very hard material and will hold a virtually vertical face for thousands of years. The tunnel was only in use about 70 years, a blink of the geological eye. I suspect the tunnel is unlined, as was the one on the GN Mansfield branch also in basalt, which I have both walked and rode through.

The Milwaukee went bankrupt three times in the 20th century. They did not have money for necessities, let alone daylighting a tunnel in hard solid rock just for the entertainment value of it.

Mac

The question wasn't why didn't they daylight Boylston, it is did they ever consider daylighting Boylston.

Basalt tends to be columnar, and can fracture easily. And of all the reasons railroads daylight tunnels, I doubt any of them do so "just for the entertainment value of it."

[PNWRMNM]

I can suggest two reasons why they never daylighted Boyleston Tunnel. No need and no money.

While I have not walked or rode through the tunnel I am familiar with the local geology. The tunnel is in basalt rock. Basalt is a very hard material and will hold a virtually vertical face for thousands of years. The tunnel was only in use about 70 years, a blink of the geological eye. I suspect the tunnel is unlined, as was the one on the GN Mansfield branch also in basalt, which I have both walked and rode through.

The Milwaukee went bankrupt three times in the 20th century. They did not have money for necessities, let alone daylighting a tunnel in hard solid rock just for the entertainment value of it.

Mac

[Murphy Siding]

Clay? I think I meant plaster,maybe?[:I] In your example above, it would have*only* taken the 2 steam shovels about 7-8 years to dig it out.[;)]. I think that would be called job security, for the shovel operators.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Boylston tunnel cuts under the Saddle Mountains, completely desert country, little if any snow problems. It is my opinion that it would have been an excellent candidate for daylighting based on the east and west portal pictures I've seen.

Which brings up the question: Why didn't they daylight the cut originally? Wouldn't that have been easier than a tunnel to start with?

I'm not sure when daylighting tunnels came into vogue, I would guess when construction equipment evolved into the massive machines they are today. Back in the pick and shovel days, it would have taken years to perform such a task.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Boylston tunnel cuts under the Saddle Mountains, completely desert country, little if any snow problems. It is my opinion that it would have been an excellent candidate for daylighting based on the east and west portal pictures I've seen.

Which brings up the question: Why didn't they daylight the cut originally? Wouldn't that have been easier than a tunnel to start with?

[Anonymous]

Boylston tunnel cuts under the Saddle Mountains, completely desert country, little if any snow problems. It is my opinion that it would have been an excellent candidate for daylighting based on the east and west portal pictures I've seen.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill

The big problems are lining maintenance and replacement and drainage. Many tunnels are drains for the local groundwater and thus are constantly soaking wet, which means that track alignment is a constant battle, and track structure (ties, rail, signal lines) fall apart rapidly.

And when something really bad happens, like a lining fire, it not only costs a fortune to repair it, the line is closed for days or weeks, which means the ENTIRE line on which it lies earns not a penny. A single good-sized tunnel problem can easily cost $100 million in repairs and lost earnings. Just adding up the tunnel problems I can think of in a few seconds on SP and former SP lines in the last 30 years -- Searls, Island Mountain (twice), Siskiyou Summit, Tunnel No. Whatever in the Cascades last year, these tunnels have cost more than $300 million (in 2005 dollars) in emergency repairs and lost earnings.

A lining fire![:0] Holy cow! I thought they were lined with concrete or clay. There must be some wood involved. I see what you mean by the water problem.

Thanks

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Slightly off topic (but necessitated by the locking of the Milwaukee thread), was there ever any consideration given to daylighting Boylston tunnel? From the pictures it looks like there is relatively little in the way of overburden from the geographic summit to the railbed itself.

Dave: I'm not really sure where the Boylston tunnel is, but reading about how money was spent for maintenance of snow sheds, if the tunnel was in a bad snowy area,maybe having a top was a "cheap" snow shed? Unless a tunnel is long enough to cause major smoke problems, what would be the advantage of daylighting a tunnel?

Boylston is in the center of Washington State west of the Columbia River and east of the Cascade Mountains, where most of the snow falls. The CMSP&P called it Johnson Creek tunnel #45. From Terraserver it looks like it would have been easy to daylight.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=10&X=1777&Y=12996&W Soo Line talked about daylighting tunnel #1 in Wisconsin during the early 1990's.

[Murphy Siding]

Bridges I can see, but how does a tunnel eat up maintenance money?

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Slightly off topic (but necessitated by the locking of the Milwaukee thread), was there ever any consideration given to daylighting Boylston tunnel? From the pictures it looks like there is relatively little in the way of overburden from the geographic summit to the railbed itself.

Dave: I'm not really sure where the Boylston tunnel is, but reading about how money was spent for maintenance of snow sheds, if the tunnel was in a bad snowy area,maybe having a top was a "cheap" snow shed? Unless a tunnel is long enough to cause major smoke problems, what would be the advantage of daylighting a tunnel?

Maintainence. Tunnels and bridges eat money faster then a 747 with indigestion.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Slightly off topic (but necessitated by the locking of the Milwaukee thread), was there ever any consideration given to daylighting Boylston tunnel? From the pictures it looks like there is relatively little in the way of overburden from the geographic summit to the railbed itself.

Dave: I'm not really sure where the Boylston tunnel is, but reading about how money was spent for maintenance of snow sheds, if the tunnel was in a bad snowy area,maybe having a top was a "cheap" snow shed? Unless a tunnel is long enough to cause major smoke problems, what would be the advantage of daylighting a tunnel?

[nanaimo73]

Dave-
I salvaged this thread before it expired. You can bring up any Milwaukee Road topic you want.

[arbfbe]

Some of the Bull Mountain coal has moved for export via the MRL. The coal is trucked to Lockwood, MT near Huntley Project where it is loaded into hopper cars for furthurence to Roberts Bank near Vancouver, BC. Currently the cogen power plant at Thompson Falls, MT is using a small supply of the coal to augment the burning of their wood chips. BNSF has a plan to construct a connection from their line at Broadview, MT to the mine should shipping quantities increase enough to warrant the expense of construction of the line. Some abandoned row exists at Broadview now.

Though this is high quality coal the mines are all underground and thus more costly to operate than the large open pit mines in the PRB.

MILW would have had two noteable options to tap the PRB Lignite coal if they had stayed in business. The most obvious would be construction of the planned Tongue River Railroad which would effectively short haul the CB&Q/NP routing of the BN for coal in the Decker, MT/Sheridan, WY area. This would follow the valley of the Tongue River south from the MILW mainline in the Miles City area. East of Miles City the MILW might have started construction on the abandoned right of way of the Wyoming - Montana North South Railroad which had plans to connect the Miles City area with central Wyoming and beyond. BN would have fought such incursion into their monopoly with vigor. This would have opened markets in the upper midwest and Kansas City to competition from the MILW. The southern end of the MILW service would have been at some disadvantage to the CB&Q routing via Lincoln, NE the BN enjoyed. I am sure the coal mines in the PRB and the power plants in the midwest would have been very supportive of an alternative MILW routing.

Thoughts for 09/14

Certainly the coal deposits are larger than just the Powder River Basin fields and indeed continue on north into Canada. Some of those areas straddling the MILW mainline could have been developed with the MILW becoming a major hauler to the upper midwest. Montana early on passed a coal severance tax to cushion itself against the boom and bust cycle of meneral production as well as to insure abandoned mines would be reclaimed when the wealth had been removed. The hard rock mining industry has left a long history of just walking away from toxic mine and mill sites leaving the state with tens of millions of dollars in work to do to make these sites safe again. Wyoming has not elected to impose this tax and their coal is more competitive in energy markets than Montana coal. This could have been a problem with coal along the MILW tracks.

[Anonymous]

Slightly off topic (but necessitated by the locking of the Milwaukee thread), was there ever any consideration given to daylighting Boylston tunnel? From the pictures it looks like there is relatively little in the way of overburden from the geographic summit to the railbed itself.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

Hello. As a former Milwaukee Road employee, I can add some information. The coal trains came from lignite mines at Gascoyne, North Dakota and went to a power plant near Milbank, South Dakota. While I was working in the division office in Aberdeen, we extended a number of sidings and did some work on the main track to prepare for the coal trains. I staked out the main line turnout at the power plant about 1973. We started running the trains about 1974.

I never worked on the west end and was not as familiar with it. I believe it as at Black River Junction where the line split to go to Seattle or Tacoma. As I recall we had a track to Longview, Washington. In the late 60's or early 70's we got trackage rights to Portland, over UP, I think.

How did the coal from Gascoyne get TO the Milwaukee lines? Over someone else's tracks, or over one of those branch lines into N.D. that were west of Mobridge?

Thanks

The Knife River mine in North Dakota is just off the mainline at mile 949.2
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=813&Y=6387&W The Big Stone power plant started in 1975 north of Big Stone at mile 602.2
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=868&Y=6274&W

By Jiminy-there it is! I was thinkng Gascoyne was way up by Wiliston. After digging up a map, I see you're absolutely correct![:)]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

Hello. As a former Milwaukee Road employee, I can add some information. The coal trains came from lignite mines at Gascoyne, North Dakota and went to a power plant near Milbank, South Dakota. While I was working in the division office in Aberdeen, we extended a number of sidings and did some work on the main track to prepare for the coal trains. I staked out the main line turnout at the power plant about 1973. We started running the trains about 1974.

I never worked on the west end and was not as familiar with it. I believe it as at Black River Junction where the line split to go to Seattle or Tacoma. As I recall we had a track to Longview, Washington. In the late 60's or early 70's we got trackage rights to Portland, over UP, I think.

How did the coal from Gascoyne get TO the Milwaukee lines? Over someone else's tracks, or over one of those branch lines into N.D. that were west of Mobridge?

Thanks

The Knife River mine in North Dakota is just off the mainline at mile 949.2
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=813&Y=6387&W The Big Stone power plant started in 1975 north of Big Stone at mile 602.2
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=868&Y=6274&W

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman

Hello. As a former Milwaukee Road employee, I can add some information. The coal trains came from lignite mines at Gascoyne, North Dakota and went to a power plant near Milbank, South Dakota. While I was working in the division office in Aberdeen, we extended a number of sidings and did some work on the main track to prepare for the coal trains. I staked out the main line turnout at the power plant about 1973. We started running the trains about 1974.

I never worked on the west end and was not as familiar with it. I believe it as at Black River Junction where the line split to go to Seattle or Tacoma. As I recall we had a track to Longview, Washington. In the late 60's or early 70's we got trackage rights to Portland, over UP, I think.

How did the coal from Gascoyne get TO the Milwaukee lines? Over someone else's tracks, or over one of those branch lines into N.D. that were west of Mobridge?

Thanks