In my ongoing research on this situation, I remember reading that much of the ROW is thru wetland, and the level top of the fills is only as wide as the ties, which is actually slightly narrower than the 10' standard for developed bike trails. This was given as one of the reasons why rails-plus-trails fell out of favor.
Overall: AREMA looked at trails and rails co-existing several years back. The consensus was the pedestrians and bikers on the trail were far too much of a liability. No rational engineered solution could protect the trails people from their own recklessness. Final recommendation was to discourage the concept of co-existence for liability reasons. (read stupid people cannot be fool-proofed)
Bonaventure10 Railbanking is supposed to save endangered RR right of ways not kill them outright....its time to call rails to trails on there own BS!!!!!!!!!!
Railbanking is supposed to save endangered RR right of ways not kill them outright....its time to call rails to trails on there own BS!!!!!!!!!!
As MC says, it's not railbanked, just out of service for hauling passengers.
The "real" rails-to-trails people have essentially disavowed this effort. RTT is interested in repurposing abandoned lines, not removing active rails.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Fellow forum members,
What follows is the text of a letter I am going to send to Raymond Hessinger, who was mentioned above as being the one to contact about the situation with the trail versus the Adirondack Scenic Railway. I am asking for your feedback before sending it. I do not want to send something that will do more harm than good. If it sounds stupid, say so. Obviously, I will fill in the address and other things a proper business letter would have. Thank you all in advance.
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Dear Mr Hessinger,
I am writing to you out of concern about the movement to remove the track of the Adirondack Scenic Railway and replace it with a trail. My purpose here is to lay out some reasons why the railway should be left in place to continue on as it has since 1996.I must say at the outset that I don’t live in New York State. I have never visited your fine state, but I would like to go there in the future, if circumstances permit. Let me tell something about myself. I live in the Nashville, Tennessee area and I volunteer as a car host for a group whose mission is similar to that of the Adirondack Scenic Railway. We run an excursion train from Nashville to points east on the Upper Cumberland Plateau, which is a very scenic area of our state of Tennessee. We do this about twenty times a year during the spring and fall. Our train consists of eleven cars that were all built in the fifties and have been restored. The train will hold 450 passengers.
A tourist train operation brings money into the local economy, in particular, to restaurants. In our case, local chambers of commerce will hold actives in their towns to which we will deliver people using our train. Examples include a Jazz festival, a mile long yard sale and a veteran’s day WW2 gathering. There are other events too. Usually what happens is that we will leave Nashville in the morning and arrive at the destination town in the late morning or early afternoon. The passengers will deboard and attend the activity or just have lunch. They return to the train and we take them back, arriving at Nashville early in the evening. Obviously, 450 people invading a small town means a lot of extra money for the local restaurants and other businesses too.
The presence of a railroad makes possible the location of industry, along with the good jobs and tax revenue that industry brings, to towns along the line. A railroad is the most cost effective way to move large and bulky freight. Many large industries choose to receive their raw materials by rail for that reason. Conversely, the absence of a railroad could send an industry somewhere else.
A tourist train operation, when properly run, is a huge amount of fun for all involved, passengers and crew alike. Consequently, it is, without a doubt, the best way of show casing the area the line runs through to those who don’t already live there. The tourist train passenger sits still, in the comfort of an air conditioned coach, while the country outside passes before them. These people could range from older couples looking for a place to retire to corporate CEO’s looking for a site for a new plant. They get to see a day in the life along the line unfold before them, for example, livestock grazing in fields, fishermen and canoeists on the river, all sorts of wildlife, farmers on tractors, adults sitting on back porches, hunters in the field, children stopping their play long enough to wave enthusiastically at the train. From what I understand, the Adirondack region is a great place to live and work. There is no better way to make that point than with a good train ride through the Adirondack region .
Finally, there is an alternative to removing the track and installing a trail. Why can’t the track and the trail coexist on the same right of way? While I don’t know the particulars of your situation, most railroad rights of way are from 75 to 100 feet wide. A trail is about ten feet wide, the track structure is about twenty feet wide. We have an extensive greenway system here in Middle Tennessee which features paved treadways, foot bridges over waterways and other amenities. I have walked it many times myself, I guess you could say I am sort of a day hiker. While I am not an expert, the greenway does not look to be more than 8 feet wide. It looks to me like it and a railroad could safely share a 100 foot wide right of way. To force the removal of a successful railroad in favor of a trail, given the benefits of that railroad and the possibility of both of them sharing the same right of way violates every standard of fairness I have ever known or been taught.
Mr. Hessinger, I hope you will take into consideration what I have said here. Let me know if you have any questions or if I can help you in any way.
Sincerely,
George
The ulterior motives of one of the main people involved in this farce is well known if you want to look around for it.
If the Adirondack Scenic Railroad made any mistake here, it has been not taking these people seriously enough. Their near silence while the opposition grew and kept selling their nonsense has led to many of the local governments involved to side with them and quite possibly lead to the death of their ambitions. They were so confident that they were in the right, that their hard work spoke for itself, and that the constant revolving door of politicians in Albany would always be on their side that they've seemingly had their head in the sand until recently and still don't seem to be doing much to sway opinions in their favor.
It might already be too late to successfully fight.
The hikers, bikers, snow mobilers, ATVers, etc, don't need the railroad right of way to do what they want, there are millions of acres and thousands of trails and land for them. The railroad right of way is precious to the needs of mass transportation in, out, and around the area which would take too much to duplicate if given away and will pay for itself in the short and long run. What these people really are about, I'm suspicious to say the least....
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rrnut282 MC, Wouldn't be poetic justice, from a perspective of knowledgable bystander, (not a railfan) to see the advocates remove the rail only to "lose" the corridor altogether. I can just hear the judge ruling," If you can't locate it legally, it must not exist."
MC,
Wouldn't be poetic justice, from a perspective of knowledgable bystander, (not a railfan) to see the advocates remove the rail only to "lose" the corridor altogether. I can just hear the judge ruling," If you can't locate it legally, it must not exist."
I am not a hiker or a runner, but I would not deny those who do hike a trail--but I certainly am against their selfishness in denying pleasure to those who enjoy riding trains and to those who are unable walk far but want to enjoy the scenery along the railway.
Johnny
Add to your list:
Hope that warped assumption on the salvage value also includes the $15-20K per mile* to survey and monument the corridor after they rip the monuments and evidence of occupations out (ie - the rails) that witness a corridor that has been in place since well before the civil war. Every adjoining landowner ought to be yelling bloody murder over this. Once it's gone - it's gone! (and re-establishing boundaries without the rail is a giant pain in the butt. There probably are giant encroachments (gaps and overlaps) in the corridor already caused by greed and or ignorance. Solving the issue is messy and few lawyers do well with real estate law, esp railroad law.)
NYC's mapping is generally over simplistic/ bad compared to those around them and I question whether the state bothered to get all it really should have acquired when it bought the line from PC.
The buttonpushers with their GIS and GPS will be at a total loss to say where the boundary lines really are. (plus or minus several yards ain't good enough)
EDIT #1: The cost of just about any adjacent landowners survey with the track/monument removed would most certainly jump (double or more?) due to all the extra retracement costs incurred by the surveyor and the costs associated with title insurance caused by the title lawyers shielding themselves from future lawsuits over migrating boundary lines and title uncertainty. Those associated costs will get dumped in the landowner's lap.(no such thing as a free lunch rule)
EDIT #2: So noted that that some of the line is ex-D&H and that a good portion of the line is post-1870.
*probably more because it is New York.
tree68 ... Edit: I should add that the trail advocates do not favor ripping up the rails on the entire corridor, only those north of Big Moose, which includes the route through the center of the Adirondack forest and on to Lake Placid.
...
Edit: I should add that the trail advocates do not favor ripping up the rails on the entire corridor, only those north of Big Moose, which includes the route through the center of the Adirondack forest and on to Lake Placid.
I heard that the trail people wanted to rip-up everything beyond Old Forge (I suppose they meant Thendara).
Though I cannot personally attest to this line, my grandparents have ridden it and thoroughly enjoyed it.
That brings up another point: What of the people who cannot physically walk a trail? While I make no assumption that all of the elderly cannot use walking trails, some can't. Then we have physically handicapped, as well as small children. Creating a walking trail invites only those physically active to use it.
BaltACD I recently read an article from a 'trail director' on a rail trail in PA that was complaining about the amount of maintenance that was required to keep the rail-trail open and in a sufficient state of repair to be usable and looking for funding sources to provide the maintenance. Trail maintenance is something very few trail promoters ever think about.
I recently read an article from a 'trail director' on a rail trail in PA that was complaining about the amount of maintenance that was required to keep the rail-trail open and in a sufficient state of repair to be usable and looking for funding sources to provide the maintenance. Trail maintenance is something very few trail promoters ever think about.
Nobody ever worries about maintenance. They just all gather for the ribbon cutting, pop the champagne, then they go home and forget about what they created As it is now time for the next new thing. The American way!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I would hope so, especially if you can tie in local (TN) experience with comparable facilities (ie, trail usage, upkeep, etc).
The trail advocates have been collecting signatures on petitions from anyone they can buttonhole at local events. Sincerely written comments from rail advocates would certainly be of value.
I live in Tennessee and I would like to help with this effort. Would they be interested in comments from out-of-staters?
A small, but very vocal group has been pushing for the removal of the rails from the old NYC Adirondack Division, to be replaced by a hiking an biking trail.
At this point, they have been successful in convincing NY state to review the "Unit Management Plan," (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/remplacidump.pdf) which currently calls for rail operations during warm weather and use as a snowmobile trail in the winter. So far, this arrangement has worked just fine.
The trail advocates insist that 20,000 (or is it 250,000? The number seems to vary) people per year would use this "world class trail." The trail would run through several wilderness areas of the Adirondacks. Many portions of the trail would be extremely remote, with no cell phone service or any other services for that matter.
Your own experience with local trails may help color that assertion.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad has carried over 1.2 million people in the past 21 years. Currently the operation includes 22 miles of trackage over a short line, 40 miles of active track (Remsen-Big Moose) and another 10 miles of active track between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake. The entire corridor is on the National Register of Historic Places.
It's been estimated that approximately $15M in trackwork would allow 25 MPH service all the way from Remsen to Lake Placid. Some portions of the active trackage are already running speeds of 30-40 MPH. Obviously, more money would allow for upgrades to higher speeds (40 MPH throughout would be desirable).
Comments are being accepted by NY state until September 25, 2013. Of course, we'd love to have plenty of comments supportive of retaining (and upgrading) the rails. Most helpful would be comments which include the benefits the railroad can bring to the area.
I would opine that "foamer" comments (ie, "I love trains! You can't take away the trains!") would be taken less seriously.
You can send comments to:
NYSTravelCorridor@dot.ny.gov,
fax to 518-457-3183,
or mailed toRaymond F. Hessinger, Director, Freight & Passenger Rail Bureau,
NYS Department of Transportation,
50 Wolf Road, POD 54,
Albany, NY 12232.
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