BaltACD Appeares to be progressing beyond a war of words - http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/short-lines/apparent-sabotage-at-adirondack-scenic-railroad.html?channel=94
Appeares to be progressing beyond a war of words -
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/short-lines/apparent-sabotage-at-adirondack-scenic-railroad.html?channel=94
And based on a sentence in the article they brought in some help who knows how to disable a locomotive. The average person wouldn't have any idea what wires to cut let alone make them look like they hadn't been tampered with.
Definitely sounds like sabotage.
Almost forgot. It is a federal offense to tamper with aircraft. Does that hold true for railroad equipment?
Norm
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Concerning the fact that most of Lake Placid;s attractions require one to access by personal auto or taxi, would not public transportation be improved by local initiative if many more people were to visit via train (or bus or plane for that matter)?
"Of course, the "trail" will be funded entirely by private sources. Right?"
A little comic relief? Michigan's trails seem to be funded by the state, including building bridges across busy highways. As always, the taxpayer gets stuck with the tab.
tgoodwinand there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor.
Of course, the "trail" will be funded entirely by private sources. Right?
More and more people are realizing that the decision here is not whether to have a trail or the railroad, but whether to have the railroad or allow the ROW to become inaccessible wilderness.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tgoodwin does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line? If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s.
does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line?
If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s.
That piece of information changes the argument rather dramatically.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Norm48327 Sounds like you're taking the side of the trail advocates.
Sounds like you're taking the side of the trail advocates.
I think you'll find he is one of the trail advocates.
The thought had occurred to me as well. "Several generations" to rebuild? I guess that is their response to the "if you want a trail why don't you just build one" argument: we must also tear out the tracks for other reasons. My grandma used to refer to this sort of argument as "catastrophizing": "now, now, now, we must do it now" (and out of the corner of their mouths "before anyone wakes up and figures out what we will be losing").
Yes, there are some long remote stretches on this corridor, but actually not much longer than the remote stretches on the Pine Creek Trail.
There are currently no places along the corridor for canoeing or hiking that aren't already accessible by road. The remote stretches of private land that adjoin the corridor will remain private for the foreseeable future and therefore not available for public use.
Lake Placid does have a "draw", but most of its attractions require a vehicle for access once one is there. Furthermore, it is 5 hours by car from NYC, but (by the ASR's own admission) 10 hours by rail. From the Albany metro area, it is 2.5 hours by car to Lake Placid but (again by the ASR's own admission) 7.5 hours by rail. There are admittedly those who would choose the rail option despite the longer times, but would there be a daily trainload that would choose that option? If it is only a very occasional excursion train that could be filled up for such a trip, does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line?
If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s. He expressed only remorse, not anger or blame, that by the 1950s the New York Central had begun abandonment proceedings.
At some point it must be concluded that this is not currently rail territory and that it will be several generations, if ever, before that is again the case.
overall There is an excellent article on this situation in the latest issue of Railway Age written by David Link who is one of the founders of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. I urge everyone with an interest in this subject to read it. You should be able to get to it at their website. George
There is an excellent article on this situation in the latest issue of Railway Age written by David Link who is one of the founders of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. I urge everyone with an interest in this subject to read it. You should be able to get to it at their website.
George
George:
Tried to find this article in Railway Age for the last couple of days. First I was interested in reading it.. Then, when I could not find it by David Link, It had become a Challenge. Admittedly, there were a couple of times while looking for it my thoughts turned ugly!
But then i did find it, I Think! (?).
Linked @ http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/doug-bowen/preservationists-rearview-work-or-future-prep.html
"Preservation: Amber past, or future-prep?"
Written by Douglas John Bowen
Found the part about the Rails or Trails argument about two-thirds into the article. (Starts about where the photo is)
FTA:"..In those larger Adirondack Mountains (photo at left), encompassed by a massive namesake state park, a similar (but fittingly larger and more acute) dispute is being played out, pitting local trail advocates against the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, operated by the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society (ARPS) over portions of 141 miles of right-of-way owned by the state.
New York's DOT and Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) are reviewing this route and, last week, invited public comment as part of a review process, which of course has de-evolved into a rail versus trail spat. The plan was for the former New York Central branch line to be held for future freight, and maybe even passenger, use..."
FURTHER:"....Snowmobilers and hikers, including the Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates, and other groups (Sierra Club) see the future differently, with the Trail Advocates calling for existing rail infrastructure to be removed and a trail established between Old Forge and Lake Placid, N.Y. Six towns and villages so far concur.
ARPS has a partner, however, and one with railroad expertise: Saratoga & North Creek Railway, a subsidiary of Iowa Pacific Holdings, whose CEO Ed Ellis knows a thing or two about "real" railroading, protests by trails-only partisans about "economic reality" notwithstanding. A year ago, Chicago-based Iowa Pacific was cleared by the Surface Transportation Board to revive 30 miles of the railroad between North Creek and Newcomb, serving the eastern "High Peaks" within Adirondack State Park—ironically, a popular destination for hikers..."
FINALLY:"...But rail professionalism (or enhanced access) isn't the real issue for the trail folk involved in the Adirondack Mountains. The real issue is one of real utility, be it passenger or freight, or both. Iowa Pacific CEO Ellis last year noted the market existed for rock and tailings left by previous industry to be hauled out. To me, that's utilizing railroads and their "green" advantage. The trail folk don't see that; they see railroads as a scourge the way Henry David Thoreau might have seen same 160 years ago.."
There is more about some of the other Preservationnist Rail Operations in the Upstate NY area. The author makes some interesting points. Worth the Read.
schlimm The # of passenger riders seems unclear because of different measures (<70K). What is the freight usage in carloads in and out?
The # of passenger riders seems unclear because of different measures (<70K). What is the freight usage in carloads in and out?
Currently zero. There is a quarry on the section currently in operation, but the rail loading area hasn't been used in some time. Projections for freight use are currently theoretical for the rest of the line.
Passenger count is confusing. What the number actually represents is number of boardings. Those trains that do an out-and-back with no layover are boarded only once, so each person riding the train counts as one passenger.
Conversely, trips like the dinner trains and the Lake Placid/Saranac Lake trips, where passengers leave the consist, then reboard, count each person twice.
While it seems like a ploy to raise passenger counts, it's a standard in the industry - and for that matter, it's how all railroads track passengers. A commuter rides twice a day, and they're counted as two riders, once for each boarding. In theory, a person like Carl, who sometimes makes several stops when he's riding Metra, etc, would be counted once for each boarding. If he made several intermediate stops, he could result in an recording of four or five boardings, or passengers, but he's only one person.
tgoodwin So you've made the statement that there is virtually no population near the trail and thereby question how many will actually use the trail. If there is no population, who will ride any restored rail service?
So you've made the statement that there is virtually no population near the trail and thereby question how many will actually use the trail. If there is no population, who will ride any restored rail service?
Who would ride? Those travelling between the endpoints and those travelling to points along the line that are otherwise difficult to access for hiking and camping.
Tupper Lake, Saranac Lake, and Lake Placid are proven draws (especially Lake Placid).
I would strongly suspect that those who would like to see those remote sections of the Adirondack Park but cannot or would not hike or bike the remote portions of the ROW far outnumber the hardy souls who would actually hike or bike it. Not many people are up to a 60 mile hike with zero amenities.
Heck, even a higher-up in the recreational biking industry has said he wouldn't send anyone out on the proposed trail.
The takeaway of any comparison of the proposed trail to existing trails such as Pine Creek or the Illinois Prairie Path is that they are used because there is ready access over their entire length. Users can enter them at any number of points. One can therefore conclude that since similar access likely will not exist for the bulk of the proposed trail (the tri-lakes region being the exception), that few people will use it.
Might better keep the rails in place and let thousands of people enjoy the Park, rather than just a few hikers and bikers.
If you take out Norwalk, Wilton, and Kendall, and highways 31 and 171, I, P, and W, not to mention the parking areas they make accessible, you start to approximate the area in question in the Adirondacks.
Oh, yeah - Tomah, Hustler, Oakdale, New Lisbon, Mauston, Cashton, Elvina, and Hillsboro probably have to go, as well. And you have to move I-94 at least 50 miles away.
For those who would like a better look at the area through which the corridor runs, you can follow the line through these four images. Mileposts are given for certain points, for distance reference. Note that many of the "roads" indicated are little more than logging trails or slightly improved gravel/dirt roads.
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0006a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0007a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0008a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0009a.jpg
I agree, Larry. IPP and the Adirondacks are very different trails. The IPP passes fairly near 500K people, as DuPage County alone has 900K. Most users are locals, although it does attract folks from farther away. It also connects to other trails, such as the Fox River trail. IPP is maintained in part by the county, but depends heavily on volunteers. The Adirondacks are a major tourist attraction, so one would assume that hiking and trail bike riding might be popular activities. Perhaps a better rail to trail comparison would be the Elroy-Sparta trail in rural Wisconsin, which along with the IPP was one of the first in the US.
http://www.elroy-sparta-trail.com/
It is important to note one major difference between IPP and the trail that is being proposed by the Adirondack trail advocates - people. IPP looks like it has a nearby resident population that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
The Adirondack rail corridor passes though areas with a resident population of near zero (particularly between Big Moose and Tupper Lake). Any comparison between the two is virtually useless, as they are two completely different animals.
Does anyone have any information on who uses IPP? That is, local residents vs people travelling from outside the area? From their web page, I gather it's chiefly local residents.
Note, too, that IPP is privately owned (albeit by a NFP). They sell memberships.
My older son and his family live adjacent to the Illinois Prairie Path. When the grandchildren were younger, I would meet my wife at their house after work, which involved a ride on the C&NW West Line and the walk from the station would include a section of the Prairie Path. I agree totally with schlimm about the high usage on the Prairie Path.
The IL Prairie Path has bikers and maybe even more walkers and joggers, even some horeback riders. It is heavily used, as is the Great Western Trail (not as heavily). on spring summer and fall weekends with good weather, the IPP is overcrowded in some sections.
Schlimm,
We have trails in the Detroit metro area. When I cross one there are very seldom people using them. They prefer to ride two abreast on a two lane highway and obstruct traffic
Old ROW's in northern lower Michigan are snowmobile trails that get considerable use in winter but are vacant when there is now snow.
Tree: We know a little too much about the Kellar Branch. Not stated was how gullible the local politicians were and how they battered the city employees into a no-win situation compounded with an irrational Pioneer Railcorp leadership. The people pushing the politician's buttons mysteriously/ conveniently disappeared.
cp8905 I have seen this linked to in various places.
I have seen this linked to in various places.
Thanks. I'm sure there are many, many more.
Bike trails do best in suburban areas of metro areas. The 61 mile Illinois Prairie Path is celebrating its 50th anniversery this year. The Prairie Path corporation is currently in the midst of a three month survey to determine how many people use the path, what they use it for and how much money is spent alongside it. Believe me, many segments are heavily patronized, including by members of thses forums. But I wish at times it were still the CA&E!!.
tree68Alas, failed trails don't have websites or otherwise tout their failures. That can make them hard to find. Evidence will have to be anecdotal - folks who know of a trail in their area that hasn't lived up to expectations.
Alas, failed trails don't have websites or otherwise tout their failures. That can make them hard to find. Evidence will have to be anecdotal - folks who know of a trail in their area that hasn't lived up to expectations.
I haven't gone searching for that information.
There is reference in an earlier post to a trail whose director is looking for maintenance funding.
I'm still searching my email, etc, for the account of a multi-million dollar project in Colorado that apparently has turned into nothing. And it's right next to a very popular rail operation.
It's funny you mention the Grand Canyon. There are those who have compared a Utica-Lake Placid trip to the ride to the Grand Canyon. The length is similar, and I would hope that the Lake Placid area thinks of itself as a tourist attraction. Just think of all the hikers a train could bring into the area!
I don't feel the need to quote the previous posts. Hope this post isn't lost under a lot of quotes.
Riders from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake do get off and are therefore counted as two passengers. I assume that riders from Utica to Thendara/Big Moose are also counted as two passengers. So now the earlier poster admitted that the number of individual passengers should be reduced to 50,000 from 70,000. That reduction says that most passengers ride either just the out and back excursion from Thendara or the Polar Express. That questions the demand for any longer excursions or passenger service.
Remember that this is very thin territory; and, absent the Olympics, Lake Placid's draw is not exactly the same as the Grand Canyon. Additionally, economics dictated that the NYC wanted to abandon this line as early as the 1950s. Since then the population has not increased, but highways and air service have been significantly improved. We can all lament that tax dollars were allocated to interstates rather than railroads; but now spending millions of tax dollars to restore this line will neither erase the effect of the interstates nor encourage more passengers to take a six hour ride from Utica to Lake Placid.
Time will tell how current rail trails in the end go back to rails. Most all rail lines were originally built when the competition was horse and wagon. When it was a multi-day trip from Utica to Lake Placid, the six hour train was a "no-brainer". And the days of the local stopping at each town's freight house are long gone - think UPS. Rail still has enormous efficiencies in the right places, but the grossly overbuilt system just has had to shrink. Look at the glass as "half-full" and be thankful that rail to trail advocates are willing to step up and preserve these rights of way in the event that they are later needed.
There are currently 1,600 rail trails in the country. Obviously not every trail has been a "complete" success, but most have developed a following and are being maintained on a regular basis. I'm interested to hear of specific examples of rail trails that have been abandoned as that may inform the current debate in the Adirondacks.
Have there been instances of trails being turned back into rails?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
henry6 EMD.Don henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way. Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle. Sorry, but this is a different situation than normal railroading in that track has been relaid where none existed. And there have been other situations where track has been relaid, too. In railroading, we can never say never. The Adirondacks rail lines are remote and not in high price urban areas and tourism has been the industry for many years...they value the rail line for that reason and not as a freight line or as a commuter line. It has a different value to many in the local population.
EMD.Don henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way. Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
Sorry, but this is a different situation than normal railroading in that track has been relaid where none existed. And there have been other situations where track has been relaid, too. In railroading, we can never say never. The Adirondacks rail lines are remote and not in high price urban areas and tourism has been the industry for many years...they value the rail line for that reason and not as a freight line or as a commuter line. It has a different value to many in the local population.
So, as I wrote in one of my replies, this situation is different (which is good), but my point is still not old thinking and my argument still stands for most others. When or if "Rails to Trails" (or similar organizations) get involved and actually win the right to rip up rails and ties for recreational or "green space" it is game over. It's called "Rails to Trails" after all and not "Rails to Trails to Rails"....
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
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