EMD.Don henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way. Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
Sorry, but this is a different situation than normal railroading in that track has been relaid where none existed. And there have been other situations where track has been relaid, too. In railroading, we can never say never. The Adirondacks rail lines are remote and not in high price urban areas and tourism has been the industry for many years...they value the rail line for that reason and not as a freight line or as a commuter line. It has a different value to many in the local population.
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tgoodwinCurrent STB regulations allow a round trip passenger to be counted twice, so the number of actual riders on the Adirondack Rail Corridor is certainly less than 70,000.
Some businesses in Old Forge and Thendara have benefitted from the railroad, but that service will continue. North of there where there has been a tourist operation for 12 years, over 400 businesses have signed a petition saying that the railroad has not helped them and that they prefer a trail.
One must always remember, too, that the trail advocates have inflated their numbers just as badly. And they never seem to mention the trails that were built, sometimes at a cost of millions of dollars, that are now closed.
The NYS Snowmobile Association has a five month lease on the corridor. Two years ago they barely got a month of use on the southern end and virtually no use on the northern end where (paradoxically) less snow falls. Last winter was a bit better, but the northern end only had about two weeks of good conditions due to the protruding rails.
When the fall "leaf peepers" are riding, they will sometimes comment about the "quality" of the colors. I generally joke with them that I simply didn't have enough time to paint all the leaves. So it is with snow. In a good snow year, everyone benefits. In a bad snow year, everyone suffers.
Since the trail advocates generally say that getting rid of the rails would add maybe two weeks to each end of the season, not having them in place would have made for a six week season (maybe). And then there are all those other trails they can ride anyhow.
Of course, I know the sledders around where I live will run the trails here based on a forecast of snow...
And I've talked to a good number of snowmobilers who are very aware that the probablity of the trail being completely closed once the rails are lifted is very high. As much as a "pain" as the rails are, they'd prefer to deal with them rather than lose the trail altogether.
The only people lifting the rails will benefit is the one who wants a road where there isn't one now, and the folks who see visitors to the Adirondack Park as interlopers and will embrace any tactic to keep the outsiders out.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
There are hundreds of miles of snow mobile trails up there...no need to confiscate railbeds for more.
tgoodwin ...... The NYS Snowmobile Association has a five month lease on the corridor. Two years ago they barely got a month of use on the southern end and virtually no use on the northern end where (paradoxically) less snow falls. Last winter was a bit better, but the northern end only had about two weeks of good conditions due to the protruding rails. .....
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How does that compare with the snowmobile season on other trails in the area? It sounds to me like conditions are quite marginal for snowmobiles for most of a fairly short winter.
The trend I have seen in eastern Canada over some 50 years is that winters are generally getting milder and the snow pack less. Some years may buck the trend and the winter sports enthusiasts get to enjoy a better season, but then next year the frustration returns. Maybe only one really good week of snow and you had other commitments.....
John
No. The opposition is mainly from one or two remote resorts or camps which do not want people around. Those above Old Forge/Thendara Bay who don't see a benefit from the tourist train are right. But if a train were to be able to traverse to Tupper, Saranac Lake and Lake Placid, there would be economic gains there. This has to be looked at on two different levels: the day tripper daisey pickers tourist ride and the actual traditional rail passenger service enabling people to ride into and out of the area with the extra dividend of perhaps some kind of freight service if warranted. My personal opinion is that I would rather see some kind of rail service in and out of the mountains than have the roads clogged and beaten up by trucks and millions of cars. Not that it would necessarily be that extensive, but it would be helpful.
The 70,000 figure includes a significant number who ride their Polar Express trains. These trains only use the private tracks for the first few miles up from Utica. Current STB regulations allow a round trip passenger to be counted twice, so the number of actual riders on the Adirondack Rail Corridor is certainly less than 70,000. Some businesses in Old Forge and Thendara have benefitted from the railroad, but that service will continue. North of there where there has been a tourist operation for 12 years, over 400 businesses have signed a petition saying that the railroad has not helped them and that they prefer a trail.
I am aware that R.J. Corman had to wage a fight to restore about ten miles of rail bed that had become a trail. However, as I understand it, their purpose in the restoration was to service a new landfill that would be taking trash from cities. Do you think that, just maybe, the real opposition was to the landfill and not to the loss of the trail?
Things have improved. 70K is a lot for a seasonal operation. Thank you for the info.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmHow many passengers carried currently? How many carloads of freight? Sounds like it serves little economic purpose unless things have improved a great deal in the 32 years.
The railroad will carry over 70,000 passengers this year on its in-service trackage, and has carried about 1.3 Million overall (22 years).
The trail advocates tout the "thousands" of people who will use the trail, but their numbers have been proven to be overly optomistic. One example they cite actually uses attendance figures of two adjacent state parks that can't even access that particular trail, as verified with the trail coordinator.
Local merchants who have experienced the business brought in by the railroad are all for it.
Snowmobilers can already use the ROW from December through April. Upgrading the tracks will have zero effect on that market, and removing the rails would only slightly lengthen the sledding season.
There is a growing sentiment that those who advocate for the trail actually simply want everyone out of "their" woods. Even the snowmobile community is figuring out that if the tracks come up, the snowmobile trail will be gone as well (as verified through several sources).
The "green" community is waiting in the wings. They've already shown their colors with a recent protest regarding the improvement of several existing snowmobile trails. If the "trail advocates" are successful in getting the rails lifted, the "green" folks will then make their presence known.
tgoodwin In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981. The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status.
In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981.
The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status.
How many passengers carried currently? How many carloads of freight? Sounds like it serves little economic purpose unless things have improved a great deal in the 32 years.
This line was formally abandoned by PC in 1972. In 1974, PC began removing the rails with the intention of selling off the right of way to help pay back taxes on the line. However, with Lake Placid poised to receive the nod for the 1980 Winter Olympics, NYS was persuaded to but the line for possible use during the Olympics. In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981.
The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status. It therefore seems that it is NUS that can decide what use(s) will be made of their right of way.
Now that the comment period is closed, it's a waiting game to find out what those who will make the decision to go beyond reviewing the UMP will decide.
In the meantime, the ARPS board president has brought up a couple of points that many others have considered:
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/539058/Elitists-skew-truth-about-railroad.html?nav=5041
This is in line with my contention that the "trail advocates" aren't advocating a trail at all...
In theory the Rails to Trails idea is good. A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. I cannot think of one trail that has been reverted back to rail although there could be some out there.
tree68 wrote the following post at Sun, Sep 1 2013 8:56 PM:
[snip]"...A small, but very vocal group has been pushing for the removal of the rails from the old NYC Adirondack Division, to be replaced by a hiking an biking trail.
At this point, they have been successful in convincing NY state to review the "Unit Management Plan," (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/remplacidump.pdf) which currently calls for rail operations during warm weather and use as a snowmobile trail in the winter. So far, this arrangement has worked just fine.
The trail advocates insist that 20,000 (or is it 250,000? The number seems to vary) people per year would use this "world class trail." The trail would run through several wilderness areas of the Adirondacks. Many portions of the trail would be extremely remote, with no cell phone service or any other services for that matter.
Your own experience with local trails may help color that assertion.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad has carried over 1.2 million people in the past 21 years. Currently the operation includes 22 miles of trackage over a short line, 40 miles of active track (Remsen-Big Moose) and another 10 miles of active track between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake. The entire corridor is on the National Register of Historic Places..."[snip]
I am in agreement with some of the other Posters on this. It would seem that the "TRAIL ADVOCATES" are making a stab at neutralizing the whole operation by singling out the Remsen to Lake Placid segment. Sort of going for the regulatory, low-hanging fruit, if you will. Their plan seems to ultimately gut the Tourist Rail Operation of the ASR; by removing a middle portion of the potential operational area of the ASR.
The fact that the cel phone service in a large portion of the line could be troubling and problematic. It is similar on the Appalachian Trail. There have be a number of 'disappearances' of hikers over the last few years. Communications along that trail is spotty, inconsistent. Potentially, a similar set -up for the trail in your area(should that happen(?). Hard to make provisions for Emergencies when there is no provision for quick communications, or emergency response. The numbers that the Trail Addvocates seem to put out are not new to their arguments. They throw out numbers without statistical verifications and allow the responding party no time to verify, They overwhelm the listener with all sort of figures that are either unsubstantiated or just vague references.
I hope the groups and supporters for the ASR do not get lulled into a false sense of security by this'win'. The individuals driving the advocacy for the trail generally have an agenda. Key is to find out what that is. Just having a bicycle trail to ride on is, IMHo a smoke-screen for something else.
So good luck with this fight, Larry and The ASR!
It may be a small victory...but it is an excellent start to big victory.
eagle1030 Tree, I'd like to congratulate (at least I think so) on the apparent victory. (Check the News Wire) I fear, however, that this isn't the end.
Tree, I'd like to congratulate (at least I think so) on the apparent victory. (Check the News Wire) I fear, however, that this isn't the end.
I characterize it as a skirmish won - the war is far from over. Psychologically, though, it is an important event, as it occured on the trail advocates home turf.
The comment period for the review of the Unit Management Plan (UMP) ends today. Indications from a variety of sources indicate that we on the rail side should be cautiously optomistic.
The trail advocates have been labelled of late as elitists who seek to keep "outsiders" out of "their" forest. Many members of one group they enlisted as allies (the snowmobilers) have seen through the ruse and have realized that should the tracks be lifted, their trail will cease to exist. While they greatly dislike the steel rails, they'd prefer them to losing the trail entirely.
The trail advocates are licking their wounds on one factor - they thought the UMP had been "re-opened" which could involve changes in the plan. On the strength of that assumption, they were essentially claiming victory. Instead, the state is "reviewing" whether to even re-open the UMP - kinda like doing research on which car you want before you actually start going out and visiting dealers. If your research doesn't reveal a car that interests you, you won't go out physically shopping.
We won't know the results of the review until the end of the year or so. Until then, we keep our fingers crossed.
Thanks to all those who sent letters of support.
Norm48327 What isn't clear is whether they want to trail the entire ROW or just the portion from Remsen to Lake Placid.
What isn't clear is whether they want to trail the entire ROW or just the portion from Remsen to Lake Placid.
Remsen to Lake Placid is the entire corridor. The trail advocates want to lift the rails between either Thendara or Big Moose (depends on what day it is) and Lake Placid. The portion from Remsen to Thendara or Big Moose would remain. Utica to Remsen is MA&N (a GVT property).
Drawing on Henry's post, the effort to get a road into the property he alludes to has been going on for years - longer than ASRR has been in existence. The chief proponent there has latched on to the trail effort (actually based on the north end of the line) since he sees the possibility that he'll finally get his road. Before ASRR came into existence, he could hi-rail the line with impunity. That's no longer the case.
The snowmobile community has latched onto this campaign in favor of the trail because they hate the rail structure itself - they need 8" of packed snow to stay over the top of the rails. Getting rid of it might add a few weeks to their sledding - they already use the corridor as a trail for most of the winter as it is, so this effort will add zero miles to their available trails.
While I'm not as convinced of the "criminal" angle as Henry (can't discount it, though), I personally suspect that the main trail advocate group simply wants to see the rails gone from "their" forest. If that part of their campaign is ultimately successful, it remains to be seen what happens to the trail part of their project. I suspect that the trail will never come to be.
From what I have read here and elsewhere, those opposed are opposed to the whole railroad venture. And again I insinuate there are other reasons than stated for their not not wanting visitors coming into their domain. The main opposition was started by a lodge or campground which once used the ROW for their guests to snowmobile and ATV willy nilly but can't if rails and trains exist. So they started a campaign against the railroad several years ago. They have recruited other recluses with fear tactics and thus brought us to where it is today. I am very suspicious of their reasons.
Larry,
I read part of the PDF from the DOT. Too long to read all of it.
Norm
Poor Rudy, Nancy and Christine....
Phoned STB today and talked to an attorney there...It depends on if the railroad was abandoned by Penn Central to begin with and BTW NJ Transit Princeton is being looked at will update asap.
Naming names with such allegations would not help the cause.
The trail advocates have a website (you can look it up) which lists their board of directors, among other things.
That there is a suggestion of hiding illegal doings (unrelated to the efforts of either the railroad or the trail advocates, to be fair) just adds to the question of the true motives of the trail advocates. On the surface, they seem to honestly believe what they dispense.
There is an undercurrent, however, that suggests that removing the rails is simply a means to an end, and a trail may or may not figure into those plans. They have come out against rail+trail, which makes one wonder, as well.
One of the trail advocates has been campaigning for a road to his remote location along the rails for years. Rumor has it he also wants to sell that property, the value of which would rise substantially if there was a road.
Some folks suspect that the ultimate goal of the trail advocates is simply to have the portion of the corridor in question return to wilderness, minus trains, snowmobiles, and even people.
But for the present, we have to play with the cards dealt and not with what cards the other players may have up their sleeves.
In the case of the railroad, the goal is quite simple - run trains all the way over the line to Lake Placid. Everyone else, we aren't so sure.
Could someone name some names here as to who is exactly behind any conspiracy that might exist here.? Name some names and I will make sure they will end up in some scandal involving some public restroom along a bike trail somewhere in upstate ny.
Larry (tree68)
I surely hope that this effort to rip out and destroy what would amount to a National Asset, Certainly, it is a wonderful asset for your State and Area. Cannot get to fruition in the destruction of the ASR.
Mention above by a couple of the Posters here, is the annual cost of Maintenance of a Trail. Monies that will be very hard to separate from the Budgets of State and Local Political entities. The one given is that the Construction Costs will just be the first expenses. The ongoing maintenance will most likely increase, exponentially in the future.
Most likely, it will require the funding and expense of a new Bureaucracy to look over the "Trail" . As you had previously mentioned, a number of isolated landowners in that area use "Hi-Rail" vehicles to access their properties and other recreational resources, via the inactive rail properties (R.O.W.). They will most likely require additional roads ( and attendant expenses for that).
It would be a shame for such a long term asset that is funding itself, to be done away with by a group of 'Special Interest, individuals' who at some point in the future will forget all about their "Trail' as their lives take them in other directions. Leaving the railroad-less landscape to try and heal itself. And the loss of a tourist income producing property to go away.
Admittedly, I have not been in that area, in a number of years, but I still have mental pictures of the beauty and grandure of that Adirondacks still .
Please feel free to use this if it will help. ( or commuicated via F.B.)
Reaards,
Sam
There is something fishy going on up there in the Mountains which the locals don't want others to know about...it could be illegal activities involving agriculture, hunting, fishing, and the like. Or it could be that they are selfish and want the woods to themselves...hermits, loners, very private citizens who just like to be left alone. There are millions of open acres for snowmobiling, ATVing, hiking, etc. so this 50 foot wide path through the woods and mountains shouldn't be taking anything away from them but they certainly couldn't afford to excavate and construct such a path on their own, either, with relatively easy grades and all. But, roads and highways would be more intrusive and costly and damaging to the environment than this railroad right of way; and a railroad would be more environmentally friendly and less obtrusive and take less land away should highways and road be built. You would think that those so interested in their privacy and the stated planned uses for the land would think less greedily and parochially and be in favor of the railroad zipping people through without stopping; unless they do have something to hide.
Thanks to Mudchicken and Midland Mike for your input. I will revise the text and incorporate what you both suggested.
George
overall Dear Mr Hessinger, ....I must say at the outset that I don’t live in New York State. I have never visited your fine state, but I would like to go there in the future, if circumstances permit. ...
Dear Mr Hessinger,
....I must say at the outset that I don’t live in New York State. I have never visited your fine state, but I would like to go there in the future, if circumstances permit. ...
Some politicians might not read past "I don’t live in New York State". Other people might wonder about your sincerity in referring to a "fine state" which you have never visited. A possible suggestion: While I have not visited your state yet, I am hoping to; and as a railfan, I would be specifically interested in riding the Adirondack Scenic Railroad.
I like the rest of your letter.
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