OK, LION *knows* that the end of the locomotive with the "F" painted on it is "forward". The engineer places the reverser in forward and the engine will chase that little "F" the whole way to the next depot.
But on the ground, that was the question over on the Model Railrodaer fourm. Of course they were fretting over how to wire a locomotive so that they will both run in the same direction. But naturally the LION went beyond that to explain the meaning and purpose of that little "F".
So now the conductor is standing on the ground, he can see the "F" and he can even point to the engineer the direction that he wants to move.
But suppose the conductor is now at the back of the train and is talking on his trusty Motorola. What does he say. "Move Forward." what if the locomotive is facing the wrong way. Does he say move east or west? Maybe the sun is down and the engineer cannot see which way is east or west. I suppose he can say "Pull" or "Push".
And of course if it were a single crewman operating with a remote control, the "FWD" would correspond to the little "F" on the front of the engine and not be relevant at all to which way the train will move in relationship to the switch in the front of the train.
How do you do it?
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
The Rules states that crews will agree before starting the day's work or whatever, what definitions, words, signs, etc. they will use so as to avoid confusion.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
If you're on an engine with a train, you're at the front of the train. The conductor doesn't really care which way the engine is pointed. He'll say something like "take 'em ahead" or "shove back". If he's giving lantern signals, they'll be in reference to his train, not necessarily the engine (however I'm sure that if the lead locomotive on the train weren't facing forward, the engineer might wish to resolve that problem).In a yard, a radio call will largely depend on the situation, and will probably use the words "pull", "drag", "shove", or "take 'em out" (one of those is not like the others!). The yard crew will (or should) know which way their engine is facing, but saying "shove ahead" or "shove back" might be academic. Lantern signals in the yard, however, would definitely be given relative to the orientation of the locomotive. And, yes, the conductor would have to know if and when the engineer changed ends for controlling his consist.Yip-Yip--Yowl--Yipe...blecch (I'm a sick puppy)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRRIf you're on an engine with a train, you're at the front of the train. The conductor doesn't really care which way the engine is pointed. He'll say something like "take 'em ahead" or "shove back". If he's giving lantern signals, they'll be in reference to his train, not necessarily the engine (however I'm sure that if the lead locomotive on the train weren't facing forward, the engineer might wish to resolve that problem).
Thanks. There was a string of flat cars spotted at the team dock. The locomotive was sitting on the main line. This was the first time I ever saw a BNSF locomotive long hood forward... LION walked up onto the team track, stepped onto the flat car and took his pictures. The crew quietly waited while I took my pictures, and as soon as I stepped off the flat car I heard an outraged locomotive horn from the locomotive attached to my flat car, and he pulled it away before I knew what was happening. Maybe they were using more than one locomotive for their work.
Ergo, it is always happening down by the tracks. A train at any time on any track.
F denotes forward or front of locomotive or power cars in MU sets and when that cab is used by the engineer all moves are determined by that designation as to forward and backward moves. Period. However, when an engineer may change cabs in a lash up, he and the conductor must communicate the change and agree to the language to used. F is always forward when a unit is used in switching yards, etc. Short hood is the norm for F however, the Southern and thus some NS units will show F on the long hood. But unless otherwise authorized or noted, F is the forward direction and controls the direction of moves.
Whatever direction the timetable says. (in case there is any argument)
(And timetable north can be ANY geographic direction, so be linear)
Timetable directions are North, East, South, or West. not forward or back. The F on the controlling unit, that the unit in which the engineer controls the train, determines forward or backwards. The engineer, conductor, and other crew member agree on any changes before moves are made. The rules of operations and safety are all spelled out, precise and definitive in the rules and timetables of each given railroad and are based on the NORAC CODES. And all involved in train service are schooled and reschooled, and tested and retested and appraised of any changes in rules or interpretations and definitions by daily, weekly, and monthly bulletins.
"Go ahead and come back"
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
narig01Wish I could show this, I will describe the following. Saw a video of a ballast train on San Diego's Coaster. It had 4 cars of ballast and a F59 on each end.Rgds IGN
In some places, my carrier has taken to operating locals with power on each end of the train. This allows the local to service customers with facing or trailing point switch access in one pass over the line segment and eliminated the necessity to run around the train at the turn point of the run.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann "Go ahead and come back"
.
23 17 46 11
"Right next to my favorite…”Go ahead and stop”…really?
Which one would like him to do……"
Turn left right here?
Norm
edblysard Night time lantern signals are given in relationship to the locomotive, either forward or reverse, and you figure out which way the locomotive is facing when you first go to work. Three basic lantern signals are the same everywhere…Forward, reverse (backwards) and stop. Hand signals in daylight are given to the engineer…”come towards me”, or “go away from me”.
Night time lantern signals are given in relationship to the locomotive, either forward or reverse, and you figure out which way the locomotive is facing when you first go to work.
Three basic lantern signals are the same everywhere…Forward, reverse (backwards) and stop.
Hand signals in daylight are given to the engineer…”come towards me”, or “go away from me”.
For us, we generally use the direction of the locomotive for day and night hand signals. We also get to use the occasional long-hood forward engine as well. Makes it extra fun.
edblysard GCOR or Norac?
GCOR or Norac?
Neither. We have our own.
To muddy the waters more I have seen some dual conrol locos with a "F" on both ends.
BroadwayLionSo now the conductor is standing on the ground, he can see the "F" and he can even point to the engineer the direction that he wants to move.
The little "F" also tells you which way the control board faces. Here at Rikers Yard on the former B&O, forward was towards the yard, reverse was away from the crew. Did not matter which way the unit was facing. Think this started in the days of steam because the engine always faced towards the yard. Out on the road, Forward was forward, and backwards was backwards.
Tim
mudchicken Whatever direction the timetable says. (in case there is any argument) (And timetable north can be ANY geographic direction, so be linear)
Our Omaha subdivision is an east/west direction by the time table. Leaving Fremont (eastward by time table) you are headed in a southerly direction until you reach the Omaha area. Then it's easterly across the river to Council Bluffs where you turn to a northerly direction up to Missouri Valley. Sometimes, especially for crews who operate to Sioux City, they will use the id of "UP 1234 North" (or South as the case may be) for their trains when on the Omaha sub. Even some Boone - Fremont crews and dispatchers also do this when on the Iowa side. It's incorrect, and If the conductor I'm working with does it, I ask him how he can be a north (or south) train on an east/west subdivision?
Every so often in our track bulletins, there will be a temporary speed restriction that has the yellow flags displayed short. When this happens, the location and for what direction must be specified. When putting out the orders for the Omaha sub someone forgets and will use "north" or "south" for the specified direction. If the slow order stands for a few days, I've seen where it has been corrected to reflect east or west the next day after issuance.
Carl and Ed pretty much summed up my opinion when using hand (day), lantern (night) or radio when doing work.
Jeff
Rikers YardThe little "F" also tells you which way the control board faces.
And in the case of dual control stands where the long hood is "F"?
ndbprrF on a locomotive stands for front not forward. Obviously telling the engineer to go forward would be in regard to the train direction not the locomotive designation.
Ahem... If he puts the reverser in FWD, he is going to chase that little "F".
BroadwayLion ndbprrF on a locomotive stands for front not forward. Obviously telling the engineer to go forward would be in regard to the train direction not the locomotive designation. Ahem... If he puts the reverser in FWD, he is going to chase that little "F". ROAR
Not always. Depends on the railroad or situation. For example:
I am on a local with one engine pulling some cars. Engine is facing forward, short hood lead, F facing the front, etc. I come up to a facing point switch for a siding. The siding is a simple single track terminating at a bumping block. On this isding are two cars. But the customer is requestiong the cars to have their postions switched. So I stop on the main, cut away from the cars I already have a hold of, then throw the switch to line myself into the siding (after thoroughly tying the train down and testing the hold with all avaliable rules, regulations, notices, and trains.com forum discussions).
I then give the engineer the "forward" hand signal. We go into the siding and couple the nose of the engine against the cars. Now I want to pull the cars out. What hand signal should I give? I gave a forward to get in here, so naturally, I would give a reverse to exit, even though I am pulling cars out with the engines.
If you think about it too much, you will screw it up. It isn't rocket science.
Jim: (located on back wall of cab with three positions usually)
mudchicken Jim: (located on back wall of cab with three positions usually)
If I'm directing the locomotive to make switching moves using the radio, I'll usually use one of two methods - timetable direction (for us that's north or south) or ahead and back (based on the orientation of the locomotive).
Compass direction is much more definitive and eliminates any confusion (except for cases of "no, no, your other north").
When using hand signals (which we do, a lot), it's all about the F.
When dealing with an assembled train, it's generally assumed that the end of the train with the locomotive(s) is the front of the train, regardless of which way the locomotive is pointed, and that a "highball" will involve the train moving in that direction. We also know which way we're supposed to be headed at that point in time.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.