jeffhergert(Most of the rule books that I can recall don't have a signal for Forward, it's for Proceed. Which is usually figured to mean to go forward.) They are signaling for the train to leave town, to proceed to the other end of the line. Not make a reverse move to the other end of the line.
Different places, different roads, different practices. Where I work, we generally use locomotive direction, after all safety briefings. when working with remotes you HAVE to use the controlling locomotive's direction, because that's how the box is wired up. There are times (on real rains controlled by real people in the cabs) you may deviate from locomotive direction, but those are like BaltACD's situation where it should be painfully obvious what is going on.
Trick is to know what gets used where you work and use it.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
BigJim The sad truth is that hand signals are a dying art. All of these young bucks will clutter up the airwaves by useing the radio even when standing right in front of you.
The sad truth is that hand signals are a dying art. All of these young bucks will clutter up the airwaves by useing the radio even when standing right in front of you.
I like using hand signals as much as possible (I work with some of the oldest guys on the roster), but there are newer engineers that aren't always paying attention to you on the front step of the engine.
But they were probably the same conductors that hogged up all the radio while moving a lite engine around.
Worked as a Switch Tender at night at a location in Cincinnati. The switches covered the leads to multiple yards as well as Main track movement for multiple railroads. The lead for all the switches covered 5/8 to 3/4 a mile from the top switch to the bottom switch.
The controlling operator lined me up that the next move would be for a Southern job - coming from the top of my territory to the bottom - I lined the route from the top to the bottom and stayed at the bottom to give the move a 'highball' lantern signal to proceed when it showed. After several minutes of giving the highball, and the train still calling for a signal, I walked back up the ladder to find that the engine was headed backward and the Engineer would only accept a back up lantern signal. I felt like giving him his signal back up where the sun don't shine. From 5/8 of a mile there is no way to tell if the headlight you see is on a engine is operating in the forward or reverse direction.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Here is how I used to control movements in switching using hand signals. Depending on what kind of locomotive we were using, whether he was or not, I always considered that the engineer was operating on the right side of the locomotive sitting up straight and facing forward. If I wanted him to move in the direction he was facing, he got a proceed signal (straight up & down). If I wanted him to move in the direction behind him, he got a backup signal (circle). Very simple.
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zugmann ndbprrF on a locomotive stands for front not forward. Obviously telling the engineer to go forward would be in regard to the train direction not the locomotive designation. Not always. Depends on the railroad or situation. For example: I am on a local with one engine pulling some cars. Engine is facing forward, short hood lead, F facing the front, etc. I come up to a facing point switch for a siding. The siding is a simple single track terminating at a bumping block. On this isding are two cars. But the customer is requestiong the cars to have their postions switched. So I stop on the main, cut away from the cars I already have a hold of, then throw the switch to line myself into the siding (after thoroughly tying the train down and testing the hold with all avaliable rules, regulations, notices, and trains.com forum discussions). I then give the engineer the "forward" hand signal. We go into the siding and couple the nose of the engine against the cars. Now I want to pull the cars out. What hand signal should I give? I gave a forward to get in here, so naturally, I would give a reverse to exit, even though I am pulling cars out with the engines. If you think about it too much, you will screw it up. It isn't rocket science.
ndbprrF on a locomotive stands for front not forward. Obviously telling the engineer to go forward would be in regard to the train direction not the locomotive designation.
Not always. Depends on the railroad or situation. For example:
I am on a local with one engine pulling some cars. Engine is facing forward, short hood lead, F facing the front, etc. I come up to a facing point switch for a siding. The siding is a simple single track terminating at a bumping block. On this isding are two cars. But the customer is requestiong the cars to have their postions switched. So I stop on the main, cut away from the cars I already have a hold of, then throw the switch to line myself into the siding (after thoroughly tying the train down and testing the hold with all avaliable rules, regulations, notices, and trains.com forum discussions).
I then give the engineer the "forward" hand signal. We go into the siding and couple the nose of the engine against the cars. Now I want to pull the cars out. What hand signal should I give? I gave a forward to get in here, so naturally, I would give a reverse to exit, even though I am pulling cars out with the engines.
If you think about it too much, you will screw it up. It isn't rocket science.
Zug, you may be pulling cars out, but you aren't a train at that point, you're making a switching move. Not that I disagree with the signals you said. I would use the same lantern signals at night as you said. By day it would be hand signals of "come to me" or "go away from me," so then the engine's direction is irrelevant.
On the Boone & Scenic Valley most of their engines are pointed so that the engine pulls the train out of town running backwards. On the return trip the engines are pulling the train back into town facing forward. They require their conductors to give a back up signal when the train is ready to leave town. I think this is incorrect, although they said that the majority of professional railroaders they talked to say it is. While the engine is indeed backing up when leaving town, the train isn't. At that point you aren't signaling for just the engine but the entire train. I think the conductors should give the Proceed hand signal instead. (Most of the rule books that I can recall don't have a signal for Forward, it's for Proceed. Which is usually figured to mean to go forward.) They are signaling for the train to leave town, to proceed to the other end of the line. Not make a reverse move to the other end of the line.
Jeff
If I'm directing the locomotive to make switching moves using the radio, I'll usually use one of two methods - timetable direction (for us that's north or south) or ahead and back (based on the orientation of the locomotive).
Compass direction is much more definitive and eliminates any confusion (except for cases of "no, no, your other north").
When using hand signals (which we do, a lot), it's all about the F.
When dealing with an assembled train, it's generally assumed that the end of the train with the locomotive(s) is the front of the train, regardless of which way the locomotive is pointed, and that a "highball" will involve the train moving in that direction. We also know which way we're supposed to be headed at that point in time.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
mudchicken Jim: (located on back wall of cab with three positions usually)
Jim: (located on back wall of cab with three positions usually)
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion ndbprrF on a locomotive stands for front not forward. Obviously telling the engineer to go forward would be in regard to the train direction not the locomotive designation. Ahem... If he puts the reverser in FWD, he is going to chase that little "F". ROAR
ROAR
Ahem... If he puts the reverser in FWD, he is going to chase that little "F".
Rikers YardThe little "F" also tells you which way the control board faces.
And in the case of dual control stands where the long hood is "F"?
mudchicken Whatever direction the timetable says. (in case there is any argument) (And timetable north can be ANY geographic direction, so be linear)
Whatever direction the timetable says. (in case there is any argument)
(And timetable north can be ANY geographic direction, so be linear)
Our Omaha subdivision is an east/west direction by the time table. Leaving Fremont (eastward by time table) you are headed in a southerly direction until you reach the Omaha area. Then it's easterly across the river to Council Bluffs where you turn to a northerly direction up to Missouri Valley. Sometimes, especially for crews who operate to Sioux City, they will use the id of "UP 1234 North" (or South as the case may be) for their trains when on the Omaha sub. Even some Boone - Fremont crews and dispatchers also do this when on the Iowa side. It's incorrect, and If the conductor I'm working with does it, I ask him how he can be a north (or south) train on an east/west subdivision?
Every so often in our track bulletins, there will be a temporary speed restriction that has the yellow flags displayed short. When this happens, the location and for what direction must be specified. When putting out the orders for the Omaha sub someone forgets and will use "north" or "south" for the specified direction. If the slow order stands for a few days, I've seen where it has been corrected to reflect east or west the next day after issuance.
Carl and Ed pretty much summed up my opinion when using hand (day), lantern (night) or radio when doing work.
The little "F" also tells you which way the control board faces. Here at Rikers Yard on the former B&O, forward was towards the yard, reverse was away from the crew. Did not matter which way the unit was facing. Think this started in the days of steam because the engine always faced towards the yard. Out on the road, Forward was forward, and backwards was backwards.
Tim
BroadwayLionSo now the conductor is standing on the ground, he can see the "F" and he can even point to the engineer the direction that he wants to move.
To muddy the waters more I have seen some dual conrol locos with a "F" on both ends.
edblysard GCOR or Norac?
GCOR or Norac?
Neither. We have our own.
23 17 46 11
edblysard Night time lantern signals are given in relationship to the locomotive, either forward or reverse, and you figure out which way the locomotive is facing when you first go to work. Three basic lantern signals are the same everywhere…Forward, reverse (backwards) and stop. Hand signals in daylight are given to the engineer…”come towards me”, or “go away from me”.
Night time lantern signals are given in relationship to the locomotive, either forward or reverse, and you figure out which way the locomotive is facing when you first go to work.
Three basic lantern signals are the same everywhere…Forward, reverse (backwards) and stop.
Hand signals in daylight are given to the engineer…”come towards me”, or “go away from me”.
For us, we generally use the direction of the locomotive for day and night hand signals. We also get to use the occasional long-hood forward engine as well. Makes it extra fun.
"Right next to my favorite…”Go ahead and stop”…really?
Which one would like him to do……"
Turn left right here?
Norm
zugmann "Go ahead and come back"
"Go ahead and come back"
narig01Wish I could show this, I will describe the following. Saw a video of a ballast train on San Diego's Coaster. It had 4 cars of ballast and a F59 on each end.Rgds IGN
In some places, my carrier has taken to operating locals with power on each end of the train. This allows the local to service customers with facing or trailing point switch access in one pass over the line segment and eliminated the necessity to run around the train at the turn point of the run.
Timetable directions are North, East, South, or West. not forward or back. The F on the controlling unit, that the unit in which the engineer controls the train, determines forward or backwards. The engineer, conductor, and other crew member agree on any changes before moves are made. The rules of operations and safety are all spelled out, precise and definitive in the rules and timetables of each given railroad and are based on the NORAC CODES. And all involved in train service are schooled and reschooled, and tested and retested and appraised of any changes in rules or interpretations and definitions by daily, weekly, and monthly bulletins.
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