Mookie These questions sound like they belong on a police or investigators report, not in the newspaper. I don't think the media could get too close to the scene let alone someone in charge. No comment is probably the most information they got from "in charge". Just my
These questions sound like they belong on a police or investigators report, not in the newspaper. I don't think the media could get too close to the scene let alone someone in charge. No comment is probably the most information they got from "in charge".
Just my
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US
QUOTE FROM THE LINK:
The derailment of a train loaded with crude oil in Quebec resulted in devastating explosions and fire. The accident raises questions about the safety of shipping oil through Maine to New Brunswick’s coastal refineries.
Across the border in Maine, the tragedy is likely to turn up the volume on an existing debate about the safety of shipping crude oil through the state from Canada’s western petroleum region to New Brunswick’s coastal refineries.
The proposed Keystone XL pipeline would move much of this heavy oil from Canada south through the US to Texas. Its backers say this means of transportation is safer than is freight transport. But it has been blocked, for now, by environmental concerns.
That means railroads continue to carry the bulk of this oil cargo. But Maine environmentalists aren’t happy about this, either. On June 27 six members of the protest group “350 Maine” were arrested in the south-central town of Fairfield for blocking railroad tracks with signs calling to “Stop Fracked Oil”.
Bucyrus Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US QUOTE FROM THE LINK: Across the border in Maine, the tragedy is likely to turn up the volume on an existing debate about the safety of shipping crude oil through the state from Canada’s western petroleum region to New Brunswick’s coastal refineries. The proposed Keystone XL pipeline would move much of this heavy oil from Canada south through the US to Texas. Its backers say this means of transportation is safer than is freight transport. But it has been blocked, for now, by environmental concerns. That means railroads continue to carry the bulk of this oil cargo. But Maine environmentalists aren’t happy about this, either. On June 27 six members of the protest group “350 Maine” were arrested in the south-central town of Fairfield for blocking railroad tracks with signs calling to “Stop Fracked Oil”.
The biggest safety advantage of rail over pipeline is that while derailments are more common than pipeline failures, the derailments release less oil on average. So, generally, derailments are less catastrophic than pipeline failures. Indeed, this derailment only released four tank cars (sometimes called “tanker wagons”). So, the derailment proved the norm in terms of spill. But unfortunately, it more than made up for that by destroying a town.
5 are now confirmed dead: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CN_CANADA_OIL_TRAIN_DERAILMENT?SITE=KING&SECTION=WORLDHEADS&TEMPLATE=WORLDHEADS.html
NW
The following article also indicates train was parked on a hill above the village with fatality count now three.
http://news.yahoo.com/quebec-police-3-dead-oil-train-derailment-142335759.html
That being said all RRs need to implement steps to prevent a similar accident.
1. A RR that routinely parks any type train for whatever reason at a location needs some kind of derail especially on the downhill side.
2. I have always felt that split rail derails are the best. If a train runs thru one then it will hit the ground and probably not go further wheras rail mounted derails have been reported to fail.
3. A frog on the continuing rail can be an owls type frog to reduce maintenance.
4. Many previous posts have pointed out that the Gunpow Amtrak collision into the rear of a Conrail DH loco consist would not have happened if Amtrak had not removed the split rail derail that PRR installed at that location.
5. It is recognized that crew may have to be transported to rear derail.
6. Most importantly a split rail derail can have a large berm built just beyond the derai. PRR did have one at Gunpow.
7. Saluda grade's runaway trackss can also be considered a method to prevent runaways.l
I see that the derailment occurred 90 minutes after the train was left unattended. So, allowing about 20 minutes for the runaway to transpire, that leaves 70 minutes for the cause of the runaway to occur.
If hand brakes were set on a sufficient number of cars, and on five locomotives, and if the air brakes were applied, it is hard to imagine a reason for a loss of brakes to hold the train. That raises the question of sabotage based on a variety of motives such as internationally inspired terrorism or domestic eco terrorism. Or it could have just been malicious vandalism. In terms of terrorism, the wreck certainly played out the very scenario that has been predicted for at least the last twenty years.
When events such as this happen, I tend to wonder about the cause.
We get plenty of oil trains through town here on the BNSF, probably as many as 6 each way (empty going west, loaded coming east) every day. I often thought about how big of a mess a derailment would be, should one happen.
Now, I know.
As far as this being a deliberate act, I find it very had to believe that that train crew was so lazy, as to want to just leave the train sitting there, without taking appropriate safety precautions. While I would imagine it's possible, that a crew would be lax in it's procedures, I fail to see how they would be that lax. Which leads one to consider a deliberate act, either by a vandal, or someone who didn't like oil, or someone who wished to kill people for some religious or political cause.
Scratch the international terrorism angle. No one claimed responsibility, which is what would have happened if that were the case.
Ecos, or greenies being upset at oil being transported? Possibly. No evidence exists to support that theory (or any theory at this point) but, it would make sense. A massive derailment and oil spill would allow the "Green" groups to begin taking steps to shut down oil transportation by rail. Perhaps the fire and destruction was not part of their plans, assuming this were the case.
A vandal? Possibly. When I lived in LaGrange Park, with the small "LaGrange Yard" on the IHB right behind my apartment building, kids were always doing stuff to the coal hoppers that were frequently parked there, from "tagging" the cars, to climbing on them, to trying (quite unsuccessfully) to move the cars, throw switches, or trying to open the bottoms of the cars to dump the coal, or do other types of damage. Perhaps someone wanted to see what would happen if a train "ran away", and didn't think beyond the nose on their face about the consequences.
So, we have a tragic accident caused by something, or someone that is unknown to us at the moment, and it's something we may never find out. All we have left is speculation, and we have a choice, so to speak, of three possibilities.
A fatigued and overworked, or careless and lazy train crew (pick one, most people will pick the one that coincides with their view of the railroad industry)
Eco-terrorists, or some Eco group causing the accident to further their agenda.
A vandal, or group of vandals, who thought it would be fun to make a train a "runaway" . Or, were just screwing around with the parked train, and didn't realize what they were doing, until the train started to roll away.
I lean to the other two, mainly because I like to think, that 99% of the train crews on this continent are competent enough to take proper safety precautions with the train that is their responsibility.
Just putting my .02 out there.
The member formerly known as "TimChgo9"
narig01One other question has their been any mention of this being a deliberate act?
I have mentioned it.
For you entertainment, a little blast from the past from Virginia, posted on Statter911 today. Circumstances aren't comparable, but the result was:
http://statter911.com/2013/07/07/film-from-1967-fire-in-the-plains-va-after-train-truck-collide-former-fire-chief-narrates/#comments
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Photog566I lean to the other two, mainly because I like to think, that 99% of the train crews on this continent are competent enough to take proper safety precautions with the train that is their responsibility.
Yeah, Right.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion Photog566I lean to the other two, mainly because I like to think, that 99% of the train crews on this continent are competent enough to take proper safety precautions with the train that is their responsibility. Yeah, Right. ROAR
1 incident > than 1%?
Zug thinks Lion better go back to math class.
PS. excuse me, the LION
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The following link says that the engines were cut off of the train, and the entire consist of 73 tank cars ran away without the engines. That would mean that the train had already passed through the town where the derailment would occur. Then when it tied up at the next town, the cars were cut off and rolled backward for about 7 miles to the point where they derailed.
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-MPJBSR1A74E901-03MQFF2NUP9KE6TJ1V0VAC8M8B
Bucyrus The following link says that the engines were cut off of the train, and the entire consist of 73 tank cars ran away without the engines. That would mean that the train had already passed through the town where the derailment would occur. Then when it tied up at the next town, the cars were cut off and rolled backward for about 7 miles to the point where they derailed. http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-MPJBSR1A74E901-03MQFF2NUP9KE6TJ1V0VAC8M8B
This is like the 6th different scenario that I've heard about the wreck. So, yeah, I think I will wait until something official before reading all these links.
What a joke these "reporters" are anymore.
zugmannZug thinks Lion better go back to math class.
I will have you know that the LION got a 17 on his algebra final!
Well yes, even in the case of that latest link, I had to read between the lines and connect all the dots between those tanker wagons. Here is what the link says:
“… the train’s conductor locked the brakes and checked that the rail cars were secure shortly before midnight. He then checked into a hotel. The locomotive detached a half- mile outside the town, and the rest of the cars carrying the crude kept moving.”
But I have to work with what I have got.
If this were an act of sabotage, the reported timeline suggest a window of opportunity of about 45 minutes. Furthermore, it would have required either bleeding the 73 cars, or bottling the air. Either would have required some time. Maybe some of our railroaders could chime in on what it would take to bottle the air, and whether it would hold for the 7 mile runaway.
Murphy Siding Bucyrus Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US Reading the information further down the page from that link, I see that Zuily has a sale on All sizes / All shapes dresses, with daily deals up to 90% off. It's just as easy to interpolate that little tidbit as proving that this won't be the most costly trainwreck in history.
Bucyrus Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US
The result of that derailment: once the site was cleaned up, train began rolling, just like before. No proclamations crying for propane to be taken off the rails, no demands that the railroad move elsewhere. Although the mayor of Weyauwega did praise the WC for their quick response to the wreck.
Bucyrus Maybe some of our railroaders could chime in on what it would take to bottle the air, and whether it would hold for the 7 mile runaway.
Maybe some of our railroaders could chime in on what it would take to bottle the air, and whether it would hold for the 7 mile runaway.
Ummm....Seriously, I hope no railroader is stupid enough to chime in on that. Come on, Bucyrus, of all the things I have read here that left me scratching my head, that takes the whole cake.
Maybe the LION will chime in and explain it to you.
National Post
Here is the clearest picture I have seen of the crash site. The "crowded bar" is purportedly the 5th bldg, or where the firefighters on the ground are in front of with two streams of water...
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
zardoz Murphy Siding Bucyrus Here is the beginning of the reaction that will make this the most costly train wreck in history: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0707/Does-Canada-train-blast-show-danger-of-oil-transport-in-US Reading the information further down the page from that link, I see that Zuily has a sale on All sizes / All shapes dresses, with daily deals up to 90% off. It's just as easy to interpolate that little tidbit as proving that this won't be the most costly trainwreck in history. Quite true. Back in 1996 the Wisconsin Central derailed 30+ cars right in downtown Weyauwega, Wi, including 7 propane cars and 2 sodium hydroxide. This derailment destroyed many buildings and caused the evacuation of the entire town for 20 days; fortunately, no one was injured or killed. The result of that derailment: once the site was cleaned up, train began rolling, just like before. No proclamations crying for propane to be taken off the rails, no demands that the railroad move elsewhere. Although the mayor of Weyauwega did praise the WC for their quick response to the wreck.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bucyrus 1) Did the entire train run away; or did only part of it run away? They make it sound like the whole train ran away. 2) The train was left unattended at 11:30 PM. When did the derailment happen? ... 4) Which direction was the train bound and which direction did it runaway?
1) Did the entire train run away; or did only part of it run away? They make it sound like the whole train ran away.
2) The train was left unattended at 11:30 PM. When did the derailment happen?
...
4) Which direction was the train bound and which direction did it runaway?
I have been away dealing with family stuff, so I just now have time to post. Not having been to the area myself but putting info together from many sources including other threads here.
1) The entire train rolled away EB, got into Lac Megantic, derailed and separated. The engines were found another 1 km. further down the track.
2) The accident is reported to have happened between 1:00 and 1:30 AM EDT.
4) This was a EB loaded train heading from Montreal on the MM&A (former CP - International of Maine Division, sold in 1988-9 IIRC) to the Irving Oil Refinery in Saint John, NB. Oil trains from the Bakken headed toward refineries on the US East Coast would turn south at Montreal and proceed down the D&H.
This is going to be an extremely difficult incident, in terms of understanding the media, because this happened in a very French speaking area of the province. All of the local reporting would be done in French, then translated into English, supplement by the media's vast understanding of railway matters.
"Tanker Wagons". Tanker- the latest English media name for tank cars. Wagon - the literal translation of the French word for railway car, which escapes me right know, but when you live north of the 49th, you hear it often enough.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/montreal/Railway+company+issues+statement/8625983/story.html
New Info:
While the governmental investigation of the accident's cause has largely prevented MMA from completing its own investigation, one fact that has emerged is the locomotive of the oil train parked at Nantes station was shut down subsequent to the departure of the engineer who had handled the train from Farnham, which may have resulted in the release of air brakes on the locomotive that was holding the train in place. As mentioned above, we don't have complete information concerning this incident, but will cooperate with government authorities as they continue their investigation.
Thanks for that information Bruce and karldotcom. That makes a possible explanation much more plauible.
If nothing else, boys and girls, I have a feeling the FRA will be paying special attention to handbrake rules and requirements.
I was visiting my mom's over the weekend and had cycled up to Champlain College in Lennoxville at around 8:00 am on Saturday morning. I usually cycle over the MM&A tracks after taking a bit of a break at the crossing, but on Saturday I say a guy in brown dress shorts and polo shirt walking along the track and taking pictures. At first I thought that maybe he was a nature buff, but he was taking pictures of the track. He would walk a few feet and then take pictures. I was going to ask him about it but decided not to. When I got back home my mom told me about the accident.
karldotcom National Post Here is the clearest picture I have seen of the crash site. The "crowded bar" is purportedly the 5th bldg, or where the firefighters on the ground are in front of with two streams of water...
My God. It looks like a German railyard in 1945 after the 8th Air Force got through with it.
zugmann If nothing else, boys and girls, I have a feeling the FRA will be paying special attention to handbrake rules and requirements.
The FRA has been paying attention to hand brake rule compliance for the past several years. There have been several US incidents that were caused by improper hand brake application.
Personally a train on my territory stalled on a hill because of a engine failure. Train stopped between swtiches of a siding. The nearest engine was 20 miles behind the train. Train was instructed to secure their train and cut the power off and return to the nearest available engine. Crew reqested the signal behind the train be lined in case the train roilled back during their hand brake test - conductor reportedly tied on 25 hand brakes - when the air was released the train did in fact roll back down the hill, emergency application was made and after stopping additional hand brakes were applied - 45 which was 1/2 the train. With the route to the nearest engine being blocked, a recrew brought power from the other end of the line. Total delay 8 hours.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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