The railroads are used to transport many raw materials and finished products.
What sort of illegal and dangerous activities by CUSTOMERS will actually cause the railroad management to actually get involved?
Are the railroads only there to transport goods to make money for the top leader and top shareholder?
How fraudulent, dangerous, and lethal of a product has to be made by the CUSTOMER before the railroad management will stop transportation of raw materials and finished products?
When will ethics and public safety come ahead of earning profits for the quarter?
Does the management use the railroad police to investigate the true safety of a tranportation CUSTOMER's products?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I'm not sure I understand the (slanted) question. Should a railroad take a moral(?) stand against transporting metal lawn darts? I'd suggest that railroads are just like every other business. As long as the product is legal and safe to haul, why wouldn't a railroad take the business? The rates charged would certainly take liability into consideration. Maybe a trainload of Ninja stars commands a higher rate than a trainload of marshmallows? Your question(?) seems to sniff at the idea that railroads are hauling that "fraudulent, dangerous, and lethal" coal, oil, and other fossil based products that are tied to the greenhouse gas debate.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Andrew,
What are you talking about?
Mac
All of the railroads I've worked for had a moral imperative to keep the employees and the public safe. That's good business, profits can be wiped out in seconds without attention to safety. No "manager" will willfully endanger the company.
Randy
Not Gas or Oil or Coal.
What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials?
What if some Chemical Combination is claimed to be one safe product, but the CUSTOMER is loading something extremely toxic between processing plants? Then it is sold to Consumers as something different entirely. A Bait and Switch scenario on everybody. Does the railroad board and CEO ever step in and say "not on our railroad".
Andrew Falconer The railroads are used to transport many raw materials and finished products. What sort of illegal and dangerous activities by CUSTOMERS will actually cause the railroad management to actually get involved? Are the railroads only there to transport goods to make money for the top leader and top shareholder? How fraudulent, dangerous, and lethal of a product has to be made by the CUSTOMER before the railroad management will stop transportation of raw materials and finished products? When will ethics and public safety come ahead of earning profits for the quarter? Does the management use the railroad police to investigate the true safety of a tranportation CUSTOMER's products? Andrew
What has to be realized is that a railroad as a common carrier, registered and incorporated to carry freight commodities in interstate commerce cannot legally deny transportation out of hand. It can charge and surcharge, apply fees and special handling to assure efficiency and safety of people and property. But cannot say no because they don't like the product or the producer. They can fight it,...and have...but it is costly and often pointless.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but railroads are common carriers, that is, they cannot discriminate against any shippers. One CEO I've heard speak says that they should be allowed to either turn away the business of hauling dangerous chemicals or charge higher rates to cover insurance costs.
Railroads can and do reject dangerous commodities. One Northeast railroad will not haul chlorine, they will not accept the liability.
I cannot imagine hauling some TIH chemicals such as the Bopal, India chemical (MIC ? )
blue streak 1 I cannot imagine hauling some TIH chemicals such as the Bopal, India chemical (MIC ? )
If the commodity is legal, is correctly discribed and in a proper shipping container - common carrier railroads are required to haul it. There are a whole lot of NASTY, NASTY chemicals that are hauled daily by railroads - without incident.
REMEMBER, if the railroads don't haul it some fly by night trucker will (at 3 truck loads per railcar load) - right down your Main Street or strategic Interstate at rush hour.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Andrew Falconer Not Gas or Oil or Coal. What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials? What if some Chemical Combination is claimed to be one safe product, but the CUSTOMER is loading something extremely toxic between processing plants? Then it is sold to Consumers as something different entirely. A Bait and Switch scenario on everybody. Does the railroad board and CEO ever step in and say "not on our railroad". Andrew
I can't remember the specific names, but railways in both Canada and the US are governed by specific acts of their federal governments as to the nature and safe handling of dangerous products. These acts are based solely on scientific properties, not on any moral issues that may surround the products. In the US the act is similar to the act that also deals with the Post Office. Or maybe it is the same one. I recall from the news that act being modified after 9/11.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Would you rather have these chemicals going down the highway in the lane next to you at 65 MPH?
Andrew Falconer The railroads are used to transport many raw materials and finished products.
That's how I see it.
Andrew Falconer What sort of illegal and dangerous activities by CUSTOMERS will actually cause the railroad management to actually get involved?
Anything they think is unethical, illegal, excessively dangerous, or not going to make them enough money...although they may do it to keep an otherwise good customer. If they're earning their keep, it would be their daily business to have reports come to them from trusted subordinates who monitor shipments for those qualities. IOW, they would properly be oriented to 'want to know'.
Andrew Falconer Are the railroads only there to transport goods to make money for the top leader and top shareholder?
Yewbetcha. Good thing, too, or they'd go out of business in a jiffy.
Andrew Falconer How fraudulent, dangerous, and lethal of a product has to be made by the CUSTOMER before the railroad management will stop transportation of raw materials and finished products?
Sufficiently fraudulent, dangerous, and/or lethal a product that a reasoned business analysis suggests would make it too risky or simply wrong from a moral standpoint. It might be a 7/10 case or only a 4/10 case based on a set of criteria, but surely the management would want to know about borderline cases, especially those that don't seem to fit their normal cargo shipments. Basically, if it is legal to ship as specified in The Law, the rail corporations would probably enjoy shipping it if it paid a decent buck. The management always has the right of refusal, though.
Andrew Falconer When will ethics and public safety come ahead of earning profits for the quarter?
Your syntax suggests you don't think it does now, suggesting in turn that your mind is made up and that it is rather rigidly fixed. I don't know that I care to disabuse you of that notion, or that I am able to, so I decline to address this and leave you to your convictions. You are welcome to them.
Andrew Falconer Does the management use the railroad police to investigate the true safety of a tranportation CUSTOMER's products?
I admit to knowing comparatively little about modern rail operations and security procedures, but my guess would be that they do not. It would be up to the shipper and the receiver to keep within shipping regulations and to abide by posted policies for the railroad, and up to those accepting the shipments for the railroad to ensure compliance with regulations and their own policies. Does this mean no marijuana ever gets shipped by rail that is labelled as 'drain cleaner'? Well..........what to you think?
Crandell
Andrew Falconer What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials?
So what is this product?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Andrew Falconer What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials? So what is this product?
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
If the railroad discovers that the shipper is describing the goods incorrectly they will certainly take some form of action. Two reasons: if the goods are dangerous they need to know in case of an incident (and also to ensure it is shipped in a suitable car), and secondly to charge the proper freight rate for the commodity. They will also quickly get involved if a load on an open car is improperly secured and liable to shift in transit.
Otherwise they are obliged as a common carrier to handle the goods, as long as the customer is willing to pay what the railroad chooses to charge and meets any other conditions the railroad may impose to ensure it can be moved safely.
Are you suggesting they should decline to move armed forces weaponry around the country on ethical grounds, since I can't think of anything else that fits what you are attempting to describe?
John
D.Carleton zugmann Andrew Falconer What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials? So what is this product? Kid, they stopped making Ford Pintos years ago.
The Ford Pinto was a great car!
Even if railroads are "required" to haul it, it isn't all that hard to lose a customer or to encourage them to look elsewhere. In the trucking biz we quote it HIGH if we don't want it. And if that doesn't work we offer terms of service that only an idiot would accept.
D.CarletonKid, they stopped making Ford Pintos years ago.
One man's Ford Pinto is another man's Jeep Cherokee? Tomato, tomato.
And does the railroad car used to haul this product need to be specially equipped? Say, with shackles maybe?
Jeff
jeffhergert zugmann Andrew Falconer What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news, will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials? So what is this product? And does the railroad car used to haul this product need to be specially equipped? Say, with shackles maybe? Jeff
Portable Soylent Green processing?
What'll they think of next?
oh...I know....
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/body-double-lifelike-android-demoed-futuristic-conference-040139620.html
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Railroads routinely carry all manner of military hardware and materiel, all over the country. That includes tanks and other artillery.
As mentioned, railroads routinely carry methyl ethyl death, again, all over the country.
Several military arms depots are/were served by rail, with the very real possibility that such arms included nuclear weapons.
As for the example of a machine that would cause human misery - I would opine that the railroad might not even know what they are carrying - unless it is specifically identified as such. If the shipping papers accurately say "machinery" and there is nothing to indicate the true use, who's to know?
Machinery in a sealed container, as long as it meets weight requirements, would not likely garner suspicion unless someone tipped the railroad off that the contents were morally objectionable. Even then, unless public opinion would damage (figuratively or literally) the railroad, who cares?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I may scream if it turns out to be an Auto-Max car!Seriously, railroads will have discussions with shippers who do not properly load their cars (overloaded or otherwise improperly loaded, causing shifting or falling hazards), or who need to work on their loading sites to make them safe for their crews or subsequent operations (when I was working, we would often report tallow tank cars with wheels so greasy that they could not be slowed down in our retarders...there were also some powdery substances that caused the same problem).Shippers are responsible for the cleanliness of cars that they empty out, and are required to close the plug doors on box cars before a crew can accept them. I had to remind a few people of that fact, too, as I've seen doors roll violently enough to run off the ends of their tracks--plug doors may be safer than they once were, but I'd still hate to have one fall on me!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Customers are required by law and regulations to properly identify their shipments( placards, type of rail car, etc.). A customer who deliberately misidentifies a shipment is committing a crime, and is liable for civil and probably criminal (jail time) prosecution.
Get a copy of 49 CFR (the DOT part of the Code of Federal Regulations,) and start reading. The requirements that shippers must comply with is too long for me to list here.
It is not the railroads responsibility to determine if a shipper has complied with the applicable regulations; this is what federal and state inspectors do. Obviously, if a railroad discovers that a shipper is fraudulently identifying shipments, the railroad has a responsibility to notify the appropriate government agencies. It will then refuse to accept these shipments.
One way to do it is to have a "Rules Circular" (used to be a "Rules Tariff") Every time you establish a rate make sure it somehow references back to those rules.
In the rules circular put an item for "Articles not accepted for movement on rates referencing this rules circular". List as broadly as possible the stuff you don't want to haul. Human remains, hazardous waste, live animals, household goods, etc. Now your "Freight, All Kinds" rates, and all other rates, don't apply on what you've listed. Unless there is a screw up, such shipments will be refused because there is no rate.
If the potential shipper contacts you and ask you to establish such a rate, just say "We don't haul that." Cite your own rules circular. By now you'll have most of them flummoxed and they'll go away.
However, and unfortunately, the government can, and will, force the establishment of such a rate. A while back the Union Pacific refused to establish a point to point commodity rate on a chlorine movement. The railroads really would like to get out of hauling TIH stuff. The potential shipper went to the STB and the UP was ordered (You WILL OBEY!) to establish the rate. So the UP came back with something like $30,000/car. The potential shipper screamed bloody murder. I don't know what happened after that.
We wouldn't haul hazardous waste in intermodal service. There was no control of where the trailer went after it left the destination ramp. We had a very valid reason for the prohibition (the waste could end up anywhere) and I think we could have defended the restriction if Big Brother got involved.
One Chicago area firm got its mammary glands in the wringer. They were processing used photo film to recover something. Silver IIRC. Anyway, the processing made the used film hazardous waste. They were storing the waste on their property without the required permits. The state EPA became aware of this and the waste hit the fan.
The state ordered the waste out of state. The Feds ordered that the waste not be moved over the state line. The attempted solution by the offending firm was to ship the waste TOFC under our FAK rates. Without any harzardous notation or documentation. We had 13 trailers of the stuff in our Chicago terminal ready to be loaded south when an Illinois EPA guy showed up to "Take a Look" at them. That was our first knowledge of what was really in the trailers. Now what? Now we're in the middle of this mess.
IIRC we wound up taking the trailers to a harzardous waste disposal site in Louisiana.
Simply stated - NO. Note the item I marked in red. Railroads are common carriers, not part of the judicial system or the legislature. Also, without its appropriate ammunition, even a Barrett Cal .50 sniper rifle that can deliver a bullseye at 2.7 kilometers is nothing but a heavy, awkwardly-shaped club.
There's also the little detail that almost anything can fatally injure humans. One reason we (USAF technicians) were hyper-careful about making sure that things don't fall off aircraft is the possibility that the loose screw or stripped nut might impact some innocent bystander - with about the same energy as that Barrett round will deliver.
As others have said, if the material is properly identified, properly packaged and the appropriate fees have been paid, the railroad HAS to accept it. It has also been noted that a shipper who falsifies content or fails to package the stuff properly can find himself in a world of legal hurt - even if nobody is injured in any way. When it comes to what's listed on the waybill, there won't be any bait and switch involved unless somebody really wants to meet a judge - from the defendant's table.
My humble abode is not too far from a busy railroad and an even busier Interstate - which parallel each other a couple of hundred yards apart. I am a LOT more concerned with the placarded trailers on the Interstate than I am with placarded cars on the UP.
Chuck (USAF retired)
Here we are again. Moderators will squash discussions of grade crossings and crew fitness requirements but allow the totally insane, such as Falconer to post repeatedly.
Moderators, this man is not entertaining. He makes absolutely no rational point re: the rail transportation industry.
Enough is enough.
tdmidget Here we are again. Moderators will squash discussions of grade crossings and crew fitness requirements but allow the totally insane, such as Falconer to post repeatedly. Moderators, this man is not entertaining. He makes absolutely no rational point re: the rail transportation industry. Enough is enough.
That's, like, your opinion, maaaan....
On the lower left hand side of any post here there is a little icon that is in the form of a triangle..it is for reporting abuse..if you feel the post is that bothersome...use it instead of posting a potentially abusive post yourself...roight?
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