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Railroad Management will actually get involved?

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:44 AM

zugmann

Andrew Falconer

What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news,  will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials?

So what is this product?

I was thinking maybe it was an automobile.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:45 AM

Andrew Falconer
What if some Chemical Combination is claimed to be one safe product, but the CUSTOMER is loading something extremely toxic between processing plants? Then it is sold to Consumers as something different entirely. A Bait and Switch scenario on everybody. Does the railroad board and CEO ever step in and say "not on our railroad".

You mean, like shipping cigarettes?

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:00 AM
BroadwayLion

Andrew Falconer
What if some Chemical Combination is claimed to be one safe product, but the CUSTOMER is loading something extremely toxic between processing plants? Then it is sold to Consumers as something different entirely. A Bait and Switch scenario on everybody. Does the railroad board and CEO ever step in and say "not on our railroad".

You mean, like shipping cigarettes?

Who is defining the substance as being toxic or otherwise dangerous? If 49CFR does not so define it, the shipper does not--and better not--describe it as being dangerous. It is six and a half years since I have been concerned with the shipment of hazardous materials, but I have memory of the regulation that you describe your shipment as being hazardous only if 49CFR declares it to be, or else you are in trouble.
 
If you think that something that is being shipped is hazardous but is not so defined, take the matter up with those who are in authority over hazardous shipments.
 

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:49 PM

Still curious what the OP was referring to in starting this thread.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Bonas on Friday, June 21, 2013 11:49 AM

Amtrak Passengers should be Hazmat.... Humans diseases spread by migration have killed more then then all the Hazmat  spills combined.

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Posted by Andrew Falconer on Friday, June 21, 2013 11:49 AM

There are numerous Agricultural-Chemical revised compounds that are no longer what the big companies claim they are shipping. 

When the customer is willing to pay Millions of Dollars to the transportation company, there must be no responsibilty or liablity on the transport company to ever know how the end product is used or who it used upon. The Customer is always the boss. 

The railroad workers are supposed to be servants who do not get involved in what the smart people in management have planned. You have to follow orders without questioning the end result. The people who are presidents and board members know what is best for the country. 

Employees are not paid to think or question what the end result is. Employees are paid to take any direction. Everyone has to maintain a narrow focus on their job. 

Eventually they want to replace most employees with automation. It means that no one can ever get involved.

Andrew

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, June 21, 2013 12:58 PM

Andrew Falconer

There are numerous Agricultural-Chemical revised compounds that are no longer what the big companies claim they are shipping. 

When the customer is willing to pay Millions of Dollars to the transportation company, there must be no responsibilty or liablity on the transport company to ever know how the end product is used or who it used upon. The Customer is always the boss. 

The railroad workers are supposed to be servants who do not get involved in what the smart people in management have planned. You have to follow orders without questioning the end result. The people who are presidents and board members know what is best for the country. 

Employees are not paid to think or question what the end result is. Employees are paid to take any direction. Everyone has to maintain a narrow focus on their job. 

Eventually they want to replace most employees with automation. It means that no one can ever get involved.

Andrew

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, June 21, 2013 1:13 PM
Any years ago a columnist in trains magazine suggested operations mgrs would love it when no products were sent but they could still generate revenue ...sounds like a plan...

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, June 21, 2013 1:16 PM

Andrew Falconer

There are numerous Agricultural-Chemical revised compounds that are no longer what the big companies claim they are shipping. 

When the customer is willing to pay Millions of Dollars to the transportation company, there must be no responsibilty or liablity on the transport company to ever know how the end product is used or who it used upon. The Customer is always the boss. 

The railroad workers are supposed to be servants who do not get involved in what the smart people in management have planned. You have to follow orders without questioning the end result. The people who are presidents and board members know what is best for the country. 

Employees are not paid to think or question what the end result is. Employees are paid to take any direction. Everyone has to maintain a narrow focus on their job. 

Eventually they want to replace most employees with automation. It means that no one can ever get involved.

Andrew

 

     Awe come on now.  You're just  taking a really broad, unfounded, nasty swipe at the entire railroad industry.  Shame on you.

     What you describe sounds like the outline for some episode of an unbelievable TV show.

       I have to believe that railroad employees are no different than any other group of employees.  Most want to do a good job, and do what's right.  The picture you've painted is not fair or accurate.

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, June 21, 2013 2:01 PM
Agriculture-chemicals. Like what? Specifics, please.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, June 21, 2013 3:16 PM

zugmann
Agriculture-chemicals. Like what? Specifics, please.

Yes, Please tell us what it is that has you concerned.

I know of one substance which in this country is shipped simply as a compressed gas, but in Canada is shipped as an inhalation hazard: ammonia. Of course, its composition has not been changed  over the years. I understand that it is so classied in this country because so much of it is used as fertilizer.

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, June 21, 2013 3:59 PM

Bonas,

That might be the funniest, yet oddly most accurate and truthful post you have ever made!

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, June 22, 2013 11:02 AM

edblysard

Bonas,

That might be the funniest, yet oddly most accurate and truthful post you have ever made!

Thumbs Up +2 - Best description of Amthrax heard yet.

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Posted by erikem on Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:27 PM

tomikawaTT

Andrew Falconer

What about a machine that is claimed to be a "Processing Machine" that in fact can only be used to fatally injure humans? If it has not yet been ruled illegal, but it has been in the news,  will the railroad stop delivery of parts and materials?

Simply stated - NO.  Note the item I marked in red.  Railroads are common carriers, not part of the judicial system or the legislature.  Also, without its appropriate ammunition, even a Barrett Cal .50 sniper rifle that can deliver a bullseye at 2.7 kilometers is nothing but a heavy, awkwardly-shaped club.

Chuck,

You left out one important detail with with respect to the Barrett, the rifle is only capable of hitting a target at 2.7 km when handled by a shooter with the appropriate training and practice.

As for common carrier status, I would imagine that Espee management would have loved to be able to refuse the shipment of Metam Sodium that got dumped into the Sacramento River some twenty years back. A reasonable compromise might transferring liability to the manufacturer/shipper/customer for extremely hazardous materials.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:53 PM

erikem
As for common carrier status, I would imagine that Espee management would have loved to be able to refuse the shipment of Metam Sodium that got dumped into the Sacramento River some twenty years back.

Metam sodium is the third most commonly used agricultural pesticide (by weight) in the U.S. A spill of 19,000 gallons of metam sodium into the Sacramento River in 1991 clearly demonstrated that a major uncontrolled release can have adverse ecological and human health effects. Furthermore, this incident revealed that estimates of Reference Exposure Levels for the major breakdown product of metam sodium (methylisothiocyanate, MITC) were reasonable with regard to the induction of discomfort. In fact, the irritant properties of MITC seem to account for many of the most commonly reported symptoms in this incident. However, neurotoxicity may also account for some of these symptoms. There is evidence that metam sodium can act as a contact sensitizer in humans, inducing allergic dermatitis. It also may exacerbate or induce respiratory allergy (asthma). The ecological impact of routine use of metam sodium is not clear, but adverse effects on non-target plants have been inferred from modeling studies, and adverse effects on soil microbes have been observed. These issues deserve further study. Human health effects of occupational or routine environmental exposure to metam sodium are not known, but there is limited evidence for immunological (hypersensitivity) and developmental effects as well as irritation and associated symptoms. Animal studies suggest a potential for immunological, developmental, carcinogenic, and atherogenic effects. Metam sodium and some of its breakdown products have a wide variety of molecular and cellular actions that could explain the health effects noted here. However, further studies are needed to relate specific molecular or cellular actions to specific health effects.

Not all that bad as far as bad stuff goes, AFIK it is still used in agriculture.

Still, don't bring that stuf around my zoo.

ROAR

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:56 PM

Andrew Falconer
What sort of illegal and dangerous activities by CUSTOMERS will actually cause the railroad management to actually get involved?

Well, *I* have decided that my railroad will no longer carry NEWSPRINT, because someone might use them to print something that I am opposed to on it.

ROAR

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Posted by Andrew Falconer on Monday, June 24, 2013 2:45 PM

Everybody has to pay their bills or lose their jobs. There are very few jobs left, because many managers controlling the USA railroads from Canada have decided to put the railroaders in a very precarious position where there are not enough people working . Nobody has enough time and money actually stop and think about the changes that have happened in the past 30 years. They are too busy doing the work of 3 people. 

High Fructose Corn Syrup is among the commodities that no longer contains just what is on the label banded on the bottom of the tank car. There are heavy metals getting into this compound. 

Andrew

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Posted by Andrew Falconer on Monday, June 24, 2013 2:50 PM

With all the money that is being saved by cutting employees, they can hire some old employees back to do Mass Spectrometer testing of Tank Car loads. It all has to be tested to be certain that the Railroads are not held accountable as a party involved in shipping false and contaminated substances sold by the mega-merger Agriculture-Chemical companies.

Andrew.  

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, June 24, 2013 3:08 PM

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, June 24, 2013 3:16 PM

Tank cars are cleaned, sealed and certified by car cleaning companies. They will do a good job because they do not want to be blamed if a product is contaminated. If BigAgra puts a contaminated product into the car, that is not the responsibility of the railroad or the car cleaning company. Neither will ever know of it.

Firms that receive product by rail must inspect and test the product that they are accepting.

If corn products have heavy metals in them, it was probably in the corn to begin with having been in the soil where the corn was grown.

OK, so you cannot eat corn or corn products, or any food products shipped by rail. Fruits have also been treated, so you cannot eat those. Beef and other meats have been genetically altered, and while you cannot blame the railroad, you still cannot eat the meat. What about trace elements or even drug contamination of water. PBCs have been found in the waters all over the planet.

Me thinks you will just wither up and die, since you cannot eat anything anymore.

ROAR

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Posted by Lake on Monday, June 24, 2013 5:08 PM

BroadwayLion

Tank cars are cleaned, sealed and certified by car cleaning companies. They will do a good job because they do not want to be blamed if a product is contaminated. If BigAgra puts a contaminated product into the car, that is not the responsibility of the railroad or the car cleaning company. Neither will ever know of it.

Firms that receive product by rail must inspect and test the product that they are accepting.

If corn products have heavy metals in them, it was probably in the corn to begin with having been in the soil where the corn was grown.

OK, so you cannot eat corn or corn products, or any food products shipped by rail. Fruits have also been treated, so you cannot eat those. Beef and other meats have been genetically altered, and while you cannot blame the railroad, you still cannot eat the meat. What about trace elements or even drug contamination of water. PBCs have been found in the waters all over the planet.

Me thinks you will just wither up and die, since you cannot eat anything anymore.

ROAR

BroadwayLion

Tank cars are cleaned, sealed and certified by car cleaning companies. They will do a good job because they do not want to be blamed if a product is contaminated. If BigAgra puts a contaminated product into the car, that is not the responsibility of the railroad or the car cleaning company. Neither will ever know of it.

Firms that receive product by rail must inspect and test the product that they are accepting.

If corn products have heavy metals in them, it was probably in the corn to begin with having been in the soil where the corn was grown.

OK, so you cannot eat corn or corn products, or any food products shipped by rail. Fruits have also been treated, so you cannot eat those. Beef and other meats have been genetically altered, and while you cannot blame the railroad, you still cannot eat the meat. What about trace elements or even drug contamination of water. PBCs have been found in the waters all over the planet.

Me thinks you will just wither up and die, since you cannot eat anything anymore.

ROAR

BroadwayLion

Tank cars are cleaned, sealed and certified by car cleaning companies. They will do a good job because they do not want to be blamed if a product is contaminated. If BigAgra puts a contaminated product into the car, that is not the responsibility of the railroad or the car cleaning company. Neither will ever know of it.

Firms that receive product by rail must inspect and test the product that they are accepting.

If corn products have heavy metals in them, it was probably in the corn to begin with having been in the soil where the corn was grown.

OK, so you cannot eat corn or corn products, or any food products shipped by rail. Fruits have also been treated, so you cannot eat those. Beef and other meats have been genetically altered, and while you cannot blame the railroad, you still cannot eat the meat. What about trace elements or even drug contamination of water. PBCs have been found in the waters all over the planet.

Me thinks you will just wither up and die, since you cannot eat anything anymore.

ROAR

Lion, since it is profit over safety, a very good analysis of the problem.

Ken

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, June 24, 2013 8:57 PM
One of the nice things railroads have going for them is they have a good idea who they are dealing with on carload shipments. It not like trucking were anybody can set up shop and call a broker to get a truck.
One of the things I learned over the years of the freight business is that your regulars by and large knew what they were doing. Shipped the same thing time and time again. And when they did something unusual it drew scrutiny.
There are a lot of laws and regulations regarding the movement of goods in this country. One of the principals of the hazardous goods regulations is that everyone is responsible for proper documentation, packaging and shipment. It also means when something goes wrong everyone is liable. This is why railroads are so touchy about this. They can be doing everything right and some bozo in a garbage truck hits the train causes a derailment and thru no fault on their part every lawyer in town sues the railroad. Not the shipper or receiver or the owner of the garbage truck who only had the legally required minimum insurance($300k in the Baltimore derailment).
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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 24, 2013 10:30 PM

Ian, you made excellent points. Everyone, from the writer of the bill of lading, the packer of the goods, the conductor (or the truck driver) who accepts the shipment to anyone else who handles the shipment has to know what must be done and what must not be done so that in the event of a mishap the emergency response people will know how to respond to the event. I wonder how many lawyers who are called in in the event of a mishap know what precautions have been taken by the shipper and the carrier.

Incidentally, I do not recall that any heavy metal that might be expected to be in a foodstuff had officially been declared hazardous--though I have not kept up with changes in the past six and a half years. Perhaps Andrew can bring us up to date on this matter.

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Posted by erikem on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 12:18 AM

Andrew Falconer

With all the money that is being saved by cutting employees, they can hire some old employees back to do Mass Spectrometer testing of Tank Car loads.

That's assuming you can train the former employees to correctly interpret the results of a mass spectral analysis.

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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 5:25 AM

Abby does it, at least 3 times an hour, plus a DNA culture and print match!

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 7:06 AM

Murphy Siding

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

At export coal terminals, the inbound shipments are tested by surveyors prior to dumping from rail cars so that the consignee knows the metalurgical content of the coal they are receiving and the also know the metalurgical content of the coal they expected to receive - if they don't receive what they are paying for, the Shipper has hell to pay.  No commodity shipments change hands without the consignee knowing specifically what they are actually recieving.  If the product is not up to spec, the shipment is refused.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 7:50 AM

BaltACD

Murphy Siding

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

At export coal terminals, the inbound shipments are tested by surveyors prior to dumping from rail cars so that the consignee knows the metallurgical content of the coal they are receiving and the also know the metallurgical content of the coal they expected to receive - if they don't receive what they are paying for, the Shipper has hell to pay.  No commodity shipments change hands without the consignee knowing specifically what they are actually receiving.  If the product is not up to spec, the shipment is refused.

  No way!  If that's true, there'd be no way for BigAg and BigRail to pull the wool over the eyes of unsuspecting paranoids the world over.


      "It's all run by a big Eastern Syndicate don't you know"   -Lucy VanPelt, from the movie  A Charlie Brown Christmas, setting the record straight on who runs Christmas, and, by extension, who runs  BigAg, and BigRail.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 8:12 AM

Murphy Siding

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

What if they find a meteorite?..Whistling

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 8:32 AM

blownout cylinder

Murphy Siding

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

What if they find a meteorite?..Whistling

  And it's full of heavy metals?  Mischief

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Tuesday, June 25, 2013 9:18 AM

Murphy Siding

blownout cylinder

Murphy Siding

    While they're at it, they can check every piece of coal, to make sure it's not just a dirty rock in disguise. Dead

What if they find a meteorite?..Whistling

  And it's full of heavy metals?  Mischief

Or had some strange virus? IndifferentTongue Tied

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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