Firelock76Quite a few, so much so that by 1915 the Licensed Battlefield Guide program had been set up. It's still in existence today. Were tourists a revenue souce for Gettysburg area railroads. Absolutely.
An interesting point, Wayne.
I wonder if a summer service between Harrisburg and Gettysburg operated by SEPTA or a tourist railroad would make any sense. I understand it is about 30 miles from Harrisburg to Gettysburg.
John
I had never read about that speech of Lincoln's. Thanks for sharing it. I think people forget Lincoln's age as President. He looked so old and aged. I think he was prematurely aged. Losing 2 sons and a Civil War in short order. I think one of the great loses with Lincoln's assassination was what he could have offered if he had lived and had good health for another 20 years. He would have left office at 60, just turning 60. He would have left office about the same age as George W. Bush.I'm 30 my grandmother who lived with us at the end said in her tiny town there were 2 Civil War vets living in the 20s.
What was most interesting to me about the article was the effort the governments, federal and state, especially PA, along with the Army quartermaster corps did to make it happen at all. Great effort, that I don't think that you would see today.
Victrola1 100 years ago, were there many visiting the Gettysburg battle field at times other than veterans reunions? Were tourists a regular revenue source for railroads serving the town.
100 years ago, were there many visiting the Gettysburg battle field at times other than veterans reunions? Were tourists a regular revenue source for railroads serving the town.
Quite a few, so much so that by 1915 the Licensed Battlefield Guide program had been set up. It's still in existence today. Were tourists a revenue souce for Gettysburg area railroads. Absolutely.
Nowhere was the story of the railroads more colorful than in the northern Virginia theater of operations up to and after the Battle of Gettysburg.
Haupt's contribution was the conversion of the single-track, 29-mile-long Western Maryland Railroad between Baltimore and Westminster from a railroad in poor condition into the successful supply line of Gen. George G. Meade's army during the campaign.
The Western Maryland was necessary because the B&O and the Northern Central did not provide adequate access to Gettysburg before the battle. Having lived in Gettysburg before the war, he was familiar with the railroads in the area. He devised a plan using train convoys, five trains at a time, instead of schedules, to bring in supplies and provisions. He also brought in his Construction Corps to bring the railroad up to speed. Following Haupt's instructions, the Construction Corps opened up the Northern Central to Hanover Junction and allowed that railroad to be used during the battle.
During the battle from July 1 to July 3, 1863, he was able to bring in supplies and bring out the wounded to Baltimore hospitals in a timely manner. By the end of the battle, rail supply lines to the Union army were delivering supplies beyond the daily requirements.
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2011/summer/usmrr.html
The logistics of moving veterans to the 1913 reunion were impressive. The logistics of 1863 were even more so.
Ulrich It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
It occurs to me, Ulrich, that we have wandered away from your original topic. I was wondering what happened to the Civil War Veterans between 1865 and 1913.
schlimm It [the Central Paciic Railroad] was built by the labors and deaths of the workforce of ~13,000 men, mostly Chinese.
You are absolutely right in this point, Schlimm.
Without taking sides, I would respectfully point out that neither Judah or any of the Big Four actually built the CP. It was built by the labors and deaths of the workforce of ~13,000 men, mostly Chinese. Financing was about half from US government bonds (repaid with interest) and half mortgage bonds. The CP also got land grants.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
greyhoundsThey got rich doing so. Good for them.
I'm glad you see my point that they took the money and ran, Greyhounds. But it is you who trashes them, not I. In the end they were people of their time and place. You cannot accept that; You cannot accept that human beings are human beings. You have to make them into gods and none of us is a god. There is no disrespect in seeing people for the people they are.
And good for them if they can overcome what they experienced.. not saying that's a bad thing. Just a little surprising (to me).
Ulrich I found this article quite interesting...and surprising. The life expectancy of someone who was born in the middle of the 19th century was somewhere around 48 years according to the stats I've seen. Yet, in 1913 there were upwards of 50 thousand Civil War vets still alive and attending the Battle of Gettysburg reunion. And that's not even counting those vets who were still alive and not planning to attend. Those guys really defied the odds, living through a war in their youth and on to a ripe old age that is old even by our standards. The other thing I found interesting is that so many vets would even want to attend the reunion. That was a brutal war, not your push button annihilation warfare of today. Soldiers on both sides would have witnessed their comrades disemboweled, dismembered, and worse. Families were torn apart...cities on both sides destroyed. It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
I found this article quite interesting...and surprising. The life expectancy of someone who was born in the middle of the 19th century was somewhere around 48 years according to the stats I've seen. Yet, in 1913 there were upwards of 50 thousand Civil War vets still alive and attending the Battle of Gettysburg reunion. And that's not even counting those vets who were still alive and not planning to attend. Those guys really defied the odds, living through a war in their youth and on to a ripe old age that is old even by our standards.
The other thing I found interesting is that so many vets would even want to attend the reunion. That was a brutal war, not your push button annihilation warfare of today. Soldiers on both sides would have witnessed their comrades disemboweled, dismembered, and worse. Families were torn apart...cities on both sides destroyed. It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
Very OT: I'm not sure that it is that much more pleasant watching one's fellow soldiers getting dismembered by IED's but then the survival rate nowadays is so much better due to 150 years of advancing medical technology (and the numbers of casulaties are obv. far smaller).
BTW, there were some Battles and situations during the Second World War that rivaled the horrors of the civil war (The Bataan Death March comes to mind) yet many veterans still desired to reunite with their comrades....
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I suppose it is an individual matter. I have found that some of the most forgiving and able to talk with former enemies or oppressors were actual participants or victims, while sometimes the most angry and unwilling to talk were those who had no actual experience in war. One could speculate why, but that seems pointless here.
Well, that speaks volumes for the survival of humanity...if people who were previously arch enemies can some 40 or 50 years later get together in remembrance under friendly circumstances. It must depend on the person and circumstances...I've met people who were still very angry and bitter some 40 years after the end of WWII... I guess if your parents or siblings were gassed or executed then forgiveness becomes that much harder.
It does happen. Not so much with North Korea, but Viet Nam has cooperated with our Defense Dept. in looking for those still "missing in action" and the American Legion Magazine has reported on friendships developed when USA military people who were veterans of action in the Vieet Nam War visited Viet Nam.
I can also draw a comparison with my experience with a steward in a German Federal Ry's dining car in 1960. I asked him where he had learned such perfect American English. He said he had been in a US prison camp and was treated well, so he wished to treat all visiting Germany well. When I told him I was on my way to Israel he said I should make a point of riding the new diesel trains Germany was providing then as reperations.
I did, even one cab ride Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. But they were underpowered diesel-mechanical units and soon were being hauled by EMD export models.
RetGM Please, folks, when you agree with a previous post, with several from the same source, be a little more specific: identify the one you agree or take issue with. Also suggest you consider John Jakes series "The Kent Chronicles" (Given, a work of fiction) to add to your appreciation of the 1860's post Civil War rail construction west of the Mississippi. Ulrich, I take exception to your approach to appreciation of veterans' associating long after the battles are over. Being exposed to death, wounding, privation and most other threats of combat tie men (and women) closer together than any other time of life, including 12 years of public schooling, 4 years of college or 20 years of railroading, and these close ties endure for a lifetime, or until age or an infirm body preclude attending reunions. At age 76, I missed my high school reunion this year due to health issues, but have tickets and reservations for my Vietnam era aviators convention in July. Back to the OP: My "RetGM" refers to having managed the Gettysburg Railroad during my 2nd career. We had a fine Historical narration onboard our Scenic Rail rides, and Civil War re-enactments staged several ties during the year. Thanks for your interest in our railroad and national history....JWH
Please, folks, when you agree with a previous post, with several from the same source, be a little more specific: identify the one you agree or take issue with. Also suggest you consider John Jakes series "The Kent Chronicles" (Given, a work of fiction) to add to your appreciation of the 1860's post Civil War rail construction west of the Mississippi. Ulrich, I take exception to your approach to appreciation of veterans' associating long after the battles are over. Being exposed to death, wounding, privation and most other threats of combat tie men (and women) closer together than any other time of life, including 12 years of public schooling, 4 years of college or 20 years of railroading, and these close ties endure for a lifetime, or until age or an infirm body preclude attending reunions. At age 76, I missed my high school reunion this year due to health issues, but have tickets and reservations for my Vietnam era aviators convention in July. Back to the OP: My "RetGM" refers to having managed the Gettysburg Railroad during my 2nd career. We had a fine Historical narration onboard our Scenic Rail rides, and Civil War re-enactments staged several ties during the year. Thanks for your interest in our railroad and national history....JWH
I understand what you say about veterans getting together once the fighting is over...I too served in the military, although not in combat, and I appreciate that shared hardship builds camaraderie. I was a little surprised that Union and Confederate vets could get together peacefully...after all...they were not comrades...they were in the field butchering each other and their families. It would be like you and other Vietnam vets getting together with some Viet Kong vets in remembrance...does that happen? I've never heard of it, but maybe it does.
Well hold on a moment. When John WR is describing the "Big Four" as men who wanted only to "take the money and run" he's only repeating what he was probably taught in high school or college years ago, which for decades of the 20th Century was the accepted academic doctrine. It's what I got too.
The great historian Steven Ambrose wrote he was taught the same things when he was a college lad. As he got older he realised what he was getting was the "spin" put on the story by his professors who were almost all "New Dealers" with a decidedly leftist bent. Ambrose did NOT say they were communists or socialists, however they did see things through an "Old Left" lens.
It was only when he did his own history of the building of the transcontinental railroad that he realised just how wrong his old profs were. Yes the "Big Four" did make a hell of a lot of money, but THEY raised the cash, THEY took the risks, and THEY were facing bankruptcy and ruin if they failed. So if they skimmed a little bit, who's to blame them? Look what they accomplished. And it was a blessing for America.
John WR You are absolutely right, Ulrich. And to top it all off the associates denied Judah's widow the support she should have had despite the fact that they could easily have afforded it. Judah was a railroad man and a visionary. The associates were merchants always looking to make a profit. I don't want to use the standards of the present day to pass a harsh judgement on them as many have done. They simply were the men they were. But Judah did quarrel with them because he wanted to build a first class railroad and they wanted to take the money and run. Had Theodore Judah been in charge and remained in charge things would have been a lot better. As it is the railroad and the country were a lot better off because of his influence both on the route and on the Pacific Railroad Acts. John
You are absolutely right, Ulrich. And to top it all off the associates denied Judah's widow the support she should have had despite the fact that they could easily have afforded it.
Judah was a railroad man and a visionary. The associates were merchants always looking to make a profit. I don't want to use the standards of the present day to pass a harsh judgement on them as many have done. They simply were the men they were. But Judah did quarrel with them because he wanted to build a first class railroad and they wanted to take the money and run. Had Theodore Judah been in charge and remained in charge things would have been a lot better. As it is the railroad and the country were a lot better off because of his influence both on the route and on the Pacific Railroad Acts.
Well this isn't true.
The "Associates" AKA "The Big Four" were all about building a railroad that they intended to operate after construction was completed. They had no intention of "Taking the money and running." The poster's fallacious attack on these great men is unconscionable.
Judah did have a falling out with Huntington. He had crossed Huntington after Huntington had promoted Judah's concept to the others. That's a good way to commit corporate career suicide. Huntington remembered and eventually forced Judah out. To expand that into "They wanted to take the money and run" is an exercise in prejudice and hatemongering.
The falsely maligned Big Four did the nearly impossible. They built a railroad eastward across the Sierra Nevada Mountains. They did this operating at the end of a 18,000 mile supply line. They had to have tunnels driven with no dynamite and not even a kerosene lamp inside the tunnels for light. And they did it. They weren't looking to run, they were looking to build.
After the completion of the first transcontinental in the US they turned their attention to developing California. They did this by providing transportation which opened up a veritable cornucopia of nutritious, delicious, fresh fruits and vegetables for the US and Canada. The sold land cheaply on good terms to small farmers. In other words, they built.
They got rich doing so. Good for them.
To see some poster just trash people like this every time he gets a false chance is sickening. He'll take a thread off topic every time he gets the chance to falsely bash people.
BroadwayLion The last person receiving government benefits from a Civil War veteran passed away only a few year ago. She was the child bride of an aging veteran. ROAR
The last person receiving government benefits from a Civil War veteran passed away only a few year ago. She was the child bride of an aging veteran.
ROAR
That was the last Civil War widow. But because children under the age of 18 also qualify for benefits which can be expanded to a lifetime if the individual is permanently incapable of self-support before the age of 18 due to disability, there are still two children of Civil War veterans receiving government benefits due to their fathers having served in the Civil War. That's current information as of last March.
There are still 10 family members receiving benefits tied to the 1898 Spanish American War. And several thousand from World War I with approximately 1/3 being spouses and the rest children despite all veterans having now passed on from the Great War.
Also, many of the vets served at a much younger age than vets of later wars. Ages in the ranks were as young as 14. Drummer boys were truly boys, as some were only 7 or 8.
Tragic indeed. He never really got the recognition he deserved. Maybe he was a bit too far ahead of his time...and sometimes the wrong people get all the credit. The Big Four, for whatever reason, live on in history (especially in California) while very few people would even recognize the name of Judah. His widow said as much when the UP and CP joined in 1869...I read somewhere that it was a said day for her as her husband even then had been all but forgotten.
Still, his death at age 37 was tragic. He was pretty important to the Central Pacific Railroad before the Associates brought him out. Had he lived railroad history might be different but we will never know.
John WRTheodore Judah who died of disease from a mosquito bite as he rode the Panama Railroad on his way to New York.
That's what he gets for taking the "short cut"!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I don't know. I've read that the war didn't just end and all was good after that. Vets on the Confederate side were discriminated against by employers. Vets struggled to cope with injuries and disabilities when there was virtually no assistance from anyone. They had to suck it up and move forward as best they could. Hard feelings, anger and hatred lingered for decades after the war. Even today, particularly in the South, some people still fly the Confederate flag. It's a war that broke up families and pitted neighbour against neighbour. But I guess time does heal some wounds, and by 1913 some Union and Confederate vets could get together peacefully in remembrance.
oltmanndThat probably includes infant mortality. The life expectancy of those surviving into their teens and 20s had to be quite a bit longer.
I'm sure you are correct on this point, Don. Still, these were the days before antibiotics and even adults could succumb. During the civil war many died when their war wounds became infected. And consider Theodore Judah who died of disease from a mosquito bite as he rode the Panama Railroad on his way to New York.
By everything I've ever read about soldiers in combat, is that you feel that you have more in common with the men shooting at you than anyone in your own rear echelon. A "band of brothers," if you will.
UlrichThe life expectancy of someone who was born in the middle of the 19th century was somewhere around 48 years according to the stats I've seen.
That probably includes infant mortality. The life expectancy of those surviving into their teens and 20s had to be quite a bit longer.
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