greyhounds Firelock76 Benny, in case no-one's said this to you yet thank you, thank you for your service! And God bless you! Wayne I'll second that Benny. Thank you greatly for your service. And may God's blessing be with you always. Ken
Firelock76 Benny, in case no-one's said this to you yet thank you, thank you for your service! And God bless you! Wayne
Benny, in case no-one's said this to you yet thank you, thank you for your service!
And God bless you!
Wayne
I'll second that Benny. Thank you greatly for your service. And may God's blessing be with you always.
Ken
Wayne & Ken,
Thanks very much for your kindness. When I think about, I think God's blessed me for everyday I've been back in the USA! Too many good guys never made it back., as we all know, from every war. I really wish there was another way. But, as a marine wrote in his account of the Pacific War, until the millenium comes. and nations stop trying to enslave each other, we'll have the damndable things.
Best regards, gentlemen.
Benny
John WR Well Wayne, I think this shows two things about Robert E. Lee. First of all, he was human enough to make a mistake, even a bad mistake. But having made it he was not too proud to admit it. Beyond that, as the core of my being I am a Yankee. And being a Yankee I don't think I ought to go around making moral judgments about people with who I disagree simply because I disagree with them. The Confederates believed they were right as deeply as I believe. And we fought a war over it. But the war is over, long long over.
Well Wayne, I think this shows two things about Robert E. Lee.
First of all, he was human enough to make a mistake, even a bad mistake.
But having made it he was not too proud to admit it.
Beyond that, as the core of my being I am a Yankee. And being a Yankee I don't think I ought to go around making moral judgments about people with who I disagree simply because I disagree with them. The Confederates believed they were right as deeply as I believe. And we fought a war over it. But the war is over, long long over.
Folks,
I always found the Civil War too depressing to look at too closely, but Have done some reading on the subject. I might comment that Lee was not only capable of making mistakes but made quite a few of them, from his efforts in West Virginia onwards. Like many a famous commander, his apparent sucess often owed much to the utter incompetence of his opponents. (Hooker, Butler, McClelland come quickly to mind). I sometimes wonder how differently the war would have went, and how much shorter, if Sherman and Grant had been in the East. Grant made some bad moves as well (the totally senseless attack at Cold Harbor). Probably all commanders were struggling with their mixture of Napoleonic tactics and advancing weapons technology. But all of them seemed capable of mistakes that the average corporal wouldn't have made.
As far as Lee taking the blame, how could he do otherwise? He was the commanding officer and had no choice but to take blame. He knew his offer to resign was nothing but theatrics.
I'm not talking strictly from a history book perspective either. Lyndon Johnson drafted me 4 days after my 19th birthday and I had my tour with the infantry in Viet Nam , 1967-68. I sure as hellfire would not attend any get-togethers with any aging VC or NVA. Those crud didn't take foot soldiers prisoners; anyone they took alive was tortured and mutilated before being murdered, particularly by the VC.
At least Lee could leave his seriously wounded men behind without fear of their being mistreated, as could Union leaders. With enenies such as those one could meet on grounds of common humanity. Not so with the savages of Ho Chi Minh.
Benny Peters
That was a great article. I just now finished reading it.
I wish they had mentioned how many passenger cars and locomotives they used to pull that reunion off. I bet the management of the P&R and WM must have had to work every contact they had ever made in the industry to pull together everything they needed. There probably wasn't a surplus coach left east of the Mississippi River!
One point of contention I did have with the article is that even with the electric signalling (ABS) it would still have been a Timetable and Train Order operation. CTC with remote controlled electric switches would have been yet to be invented.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
I agree 100%! Well said!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Firelock76Dammit, there HAD to be another way!
Actually, Wayne, there was another way. William Seward believed that if allowed to secede in peace the Confederacy would ultimately return to the Union. He wrote a long memo to Abe Lincoln proposing that. However, the memo included a rather crazy idea that we should also provoke a war with France. Seward had been in the Senate for a number of years and was very familiar with the Confederate leaders, especially Jefferson Davis. Davis saw no necessity for war.
Abe Lincoln saw things differently. He feared that if the Confederacy was allowed to secede the northwest would want to secede also to gain economic independence from eastern bankers. With the country thus balkanized Britain and France would lose no time in taking advantage of us to make the separate sections economic colonies.
After the election Abe Lincoln was new to the whole Federal Government. No one, north or south, knew him or what his perspective was. And of course he knew nothing of the relationships between northern and southern legislators over the years. In the early days of his administration he dithered around not knowing what to do. I think the Confederates mistook his confusion for weakness; there was never any question in him mind but that secession was simply a criminal insurgency.
John
Hi John! Well, I'm a Yankee as well, born in New York City, raised in New Jersey, now living in Virginia.
And when I think about the Civil War I almost want to break down and cry. Dammit, there HAD to be another way!
By the way, when I was a Marine all my best friends were Southerners. I can't imagine drawing a bead on any of them. Thank God I wasn't a professional soldier in the 1860's.
Ulrich That was a brutal war,
They usually are.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Ignoring my previous warning to identify to whom I am replying, I suppose the Civil War veterans were all practicing AMERICANS following the war, at least those who attended the reunions. Yes, we Vietnam War veterans have visited our previous battle sites and conducted translator conversations with our battlefield opponents, from Generals and Colonels commanding, on down the line. By the way, The soldiers won the battles; reporters and polititions lost the war.JWH
"It's all my fault..."
Quite true John. In deference to Robert E. Lee's admirers, and I'm one of them, it was his battle to lose.
Unidentified Man #2: I wish that all of you elsewhere could be in Gettysburg to see the most colorful sight of your lives. Early Wednesday morning, the opening date of the observance of the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, the first of 26 special trains rolled into this historic community. Laughing and crying and waving their hats, these old veterans, each with an attendant, detrained and were welcomed officially to Gettysburg.
Mr. MCDONOUGH: A sense of 19th century formality descended on Gettysburg. Some veterans arrived in uniform. Many sported tufts of white sideburns, mustaches and goatees. Despite the sweltering July heat, films show nearly everyone dressed in coats, vests and neckties.
(Soundbite of a news broadcast)
Unidentified Man #2: These fine old gentlemen boarded a fleet of buses and were taken to their tented city, the largest of its kind and the most modern ever constructed in peacetime.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106259780
"Old soldiers never die. They just fade away."
Firelock76In his after-action report to Jefferson Davis (which I've read, and is very well written by the way) Lee accepted full responsibility and blame for the defeat and tendered his resignation, which Jeff Davis refused to accept, saying in return he couldn't replace Lee.
A story I have read in several places is that after Pickett's Charge General Lee rode up to General Longstreet and gave an order: "General. Assemble your men."
Longstreet looked straight back at him and said "General Lee, I have no men."
Lee then looked down at the ground saying "It's my fault. It's all my fault."
Firelock76You could spend a lifetime just studying the regimental monuments, to say nothing of the battle itself.
Not only do I agree with you, Wayne. But also many people do spend a lifetime on the Battle of Gettysburg. I just wish I could get there by train.
Firelock76 But hey, this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part, I wasn't there, I wasn't in Lees shoes, I know things now that he didn't know then, the decision wasn't mine to make. Lee thought he could beat the Army of the Potomac, he'd beaten them plenty of times in the past, so he thought he could beat them again where he was. But it just didn't work this time. Everything that could go wrong for the Confederates did go wrong, and we all know what happened. C'est la guerre.
But hey, this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part, I wasn't there, I wasn't in Lees shoes, I know things now that he didn't know then, the decision wasn't mine to make. Lee thought he could beat the Army of the Potomac, he'd beaten them plenty of times in the past, so he thought he could beat them again where he was.
But it just didn't work this time. Everything that could go wrong for the Confederates did go wrong, and we all know what happened. C'est la guerre.
Lots of controversy about all that, even now. Seems pretty clear that if Jeb Stuart had actually been there near the beginning, performing his assigned job of reporting Union troop movements back to Lee, Old Bobby might well have followed Longstreet's advice and done as you say above, gone on the defensive at a stronger position (as he had previously done at Chancellorsville) and let Meade destroy himself, opening the door to DC and the end of the war.
The plain fact of the matter is Lee shouldn't have fought at Gettysburg. It wasn't planned that way, Gettysburg just happened to be where the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac collided.
The smart thing for Lee to have done was disengage, pivot around the Union forces, find some good defensive ground between the Army of the Potomac and Washington and let the Yankees batter themselves to pieces trying to remove the threat to DC.
In his after-action report to Jefferson Davis (which I've read, and is very well written by the way) Lee accepted full responsibility and blame for the defeat and tendered his resignation, which Jeff Davis refused to accept, saying in return he couldn't replace Lee.
Here is something to think about. The Battle at Gettysburg was started over Shoes and Food the Army of Northern Virginia was looking for Both at the time. They ran into Militia and ran them out of town. Then Buford showed up with his Division of Calvary and took the High ground dismounted his troops and held. He also wired that he needed help and Burnside sent help via the RR. Lee on the other hand was all stretched out and in fact Pickett did not show up till the Night BEFORE he made his Charge. Also Stuart was Beaten at Gettysburg by Custer and 1 Brigade of Michigan Calvary on the third day of battle otherwise Stuart would have turned the Flanks of the Union and who knows how the battle would have turned out.
Hello John!
Tour Getttysburg in one day? Well, it could be done, but trust me you need at least three days (same as the battle incidentally) to do justice to the place. The musems, the monuments, the NPS Visitor Center with the Cyclorama (NOT to be missed!) , and the battlefield itself. One day just doesn't get it.
You could spend a lifetime just studying the regimental monuments, to say nothing of the battle itself.
Firelock76 A tourist railroad is fun to speculate on. Say, a 'road using replica 4-4-0 steam locomotives pulling replica 1860's passenger cars for the whole Civil War experience. I know it's being done now on a small scale, but doing it on a grand scale is what I'm thinking about.
A tourist railroad is fun to speculate on. Say, a 'road using replica 4-4-0 steam locomotives pulling replica 1860's passenger cars for the whole Civil War experience. I know it's being done now on a small scale, but doing it on a grand scale is what I'm thinking about.
I guess, Wayne, speculating is all that we can do. But there is a lot of rail service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg and so I thought maybe enough people from the northeast would use it to make it work. It would be possible to make the trip from Boston in one day, tour Gettysburg and go back home. No lodging costs and no driving.
NorthWest Albert Woolson: Born 22 years before the Golden Spike on the first transcontinental railroad, died 4 years before the last Class 1 steam locomotive dropped its fire for the last time. So much happened in a lifetime.
Albert Woolson: Born 22 years before the Golden Spike on the first transcontinental railroad, died 4 years before the last Class 1 steam locomotive dropped its fire for the last time. So much happened in a lifetime.
Just think what has transpired in the most recent 107 years that include our lifetimes?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Semper Vaporo When I was 4 years old, my family moved from Salem Indiana to Indianapolis, but often went back to Salem to visit Mom's parents. Often we would go for a ride to the downtown square to stroll around (major bore for a kid, except when I got to sit on the lion statue outside the bank, or if I was good, we went to Neil's Ice Cream Parlor!!! ). But on one of those strolls (probably in 1952 or so) we crossed the street to the courthouse to look at some statues (or something, I don't really remember why), and there were several OLD (and I do mean OLD!) men sitting on park benches in the lawn (last time I was there, the benches were gone... replaced by signs that read, "NO LOITERING!"). Dad struck up a conversation with one of them and asked how he was doing. They chatted a bit and something came up about him being a veteran of the Civil War (I thought they said 'Silver war'... what did I know I was about 6 years old at that time). Anyway, he then commented that in the war he fought along side a man that was a veteran of the Revolutionary War! I never really thought about that until I was in High School American History class and was thinking about how stupid is was to be studying such old history. Then I remembered that man and his comment. That sure "compressed" history for me. I have met a man who knew a man who had fought in the Revolutionary War.
When I was 4 years old, my family moved from Salem Indiana to Indianapolis, but often went back to Salem to visit Mom's parents. Often we would go for a ride to the downtown square to stroll around (major bore for a kid, except when I got to sit on the lion statue outside the bank, or if I was good, we went to Neil's Ice Cream Parlor!!! ).
But on one of those strolls (probably in 1952 or so) we crossed the street to the courthouse to look at some statues (or something, I don't really remember why), and there were several OLD (and I do mean OLD!) men sitting on park benches in the lawn (last time I was there, the benches were gone... replaced by signs that read, "NO LOITERING!").
Dad struck up a conversation with one of them and asked how he was doing. They chatted a bit and something came up about him being a veteran of the Civil War (I thought they said 'Silver war'... what did I know I was about 6 years old at that time).
Anyway, he then commented that in the war he fought along side a man that was a veteran of the Revolutionary War!
I never really thought about that until I was in High School American History class and was thinking about how stupid is was to be studying such old history. Then I remembered that man and his comment. That sure "compressed" history for me. I have met a man who knew a man who had fought in the Revolutionary War.
The value of your experience is unquestionable; However, since the last undisputed Union veteran, Albert Woolson, died in 1956 and lived his entire life after the war in Minnesota (Duluth), the man you encountered in 1952 was probably not (though possibly) a veteran. The Grand Army of the Republic held annual encampments, the final one in Indianapolis in 1949. Lemuel Cook (1759 – 1866) was the last verifiable surviving veteran of the Revolutionary War. Since he was from CT and died in upstate NY, the odds seem pretty long that he encountered Civil War veterans before his death at age 107.
Hi, Semper Vaporo! A Civil War vet who fought alongside a Revolutionary War vet? Gee, I don't know, 80 years separates the two wars from one another. Chances are he KNEW a veteran of the Revolution and his memory was playing tricks on him.
No matter, you were accorded a priviledge given to few. I envy you.
I followed the Pioneer Railcopr link and looked at the Gettysburg Northern. Didn't that used to be the old Gettysburg Railroad, the one that had the boiler failure in the 90's?
A look at Google Earth shows that CSX still owns the ex WM line through Gettysburg, and the line looks well ballasted, and in good mainline shape . Pioneer Railcorp Operates the ex P&R line from Gettysburg Jct. to Carlisle Jct. (NS) The branch to Round Top is abandoned. http://pioneer-railcorp.com/get.html.
Yes, since Gettysburg is southwest of Harrisburg, it is a little bit outside SEPTA's area. The Reading used to have a line down to Roundtop. I do not know when it was abandoned south of Gettysburg proper. The CNJ map (no RDG map in this issue) of the January, 1930, Guide shows the track going down to Round Top, but there is no table showing service to Round Top.
When I was in high school (early fifties) one of my classmates went to a Scout Jamboree at Gettysburg, and he arrived there by rail.
Johnny
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Hello John! Summer service between Philly or Harrisburg and Gettysburg provided by SEPTA? Hmm, interesting question. Gettysburg's quite outside the SEPTA area of responsibility, so I doubt they'd be interested. At any rate SEPTA's got budget problems right now as I understand it, they've got their hands full maintaining the infrastructure they've got.
I'm not sure just where the passenger service would go either. I visited Gettysburg three years ago and don't recall seeing any major rail lines close to the battlefield park. It doesn't mean they're not there, I just didn't see any.
Of course, rail passenger service to Gettysburg was at it's height when the passenger train was a major part of American society. Being in fairly close proximity to three major cities, i.e. Phiadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington passenger service to Gettysburg was a guaranteed money maker, especially from Washington. Quite a few military officers from the DC area used to visit the battlefield, still do as a matter of fact. In the 20's and 30's a Major George Patton was a frequent visitor, but that's another story.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.