Ulrich I found this article quite interesting...and surprising. The life expectancy of someone who was born in the middle of the 19th century was somewhere around 48 years according to the stats I've seen. Yet, in 1913 there were upwards of 50 thousand Civil War vets still alive and attending the Battle of Gettysburg reunion. And that's not even counting those vets who were still alive and not planning to attend. Those guys really defied the odds, living through a war in their youth and on to a ripe old age that is old even by our standards. The other thing I found interesting is that so many vets would even want to attend the reunion. That was a brutal war, not your push button annihilation warfare of today. Soldiers on both sides would have witnessed their comrades disemboweled, dismembered, and worse. Families were torn apart...cities on both sides destroyed. It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
I found this article quite interesting...and surprising. The life expectancy of someone who was born in the middle of the 19th century was somewhere around 48 years according to the stats I've seen. Yet, in 1913 there were upwards of 50 thousand Civil War vets still alive and attending the Battle of Gettysburg reunion. And that's not even counting those vets who were still alive and not planning to attend. Those guys really defied the odds, living through a war in their youth and on to a ripe old age that is old even by our standards.
The other thing I found interesting is that so many vets would even want to attend the reunion. That was a brutal war, not your push button annihilation warfare of today. Soldiers on both sides would have witnessed their comrades disemboweled, dismembered, and worse. Families were torn apart...cities on both sides destroyed. It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
Very OT: I'm not sure that it is that much more pleasant watching one's fellow soldiers getting dismembered by IED's but then the survival rate nowadays is so much better due to 150 years of advancing medical technology (and the numbers of casulaties are obv. far smaller).
BTW, there were some Battles and situations during the Second World War that rivaled the horrors of the civil war (The Bataan Death March comes to mind) yet many veterans still desired to reunite with their comrades....
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
And good for them if they can overcome what they experienced.. not saying that's a bad thing. Just a little surprising (to me).
greyhoundsThey got rich doing so. Good for them.
I'm glad you see my point that they took the money and ran, Greyhounds. But it is you who trashes them, not I. In the end they were people of their time and place. You cannot accept that; You cannot accept that human beings are human beings. You have to make them into gods and none of us is a god. There is no disrespect in seeing people for the people they are.
Without taking sides, I would respectfully point out that neither Judah or any of the Big Four actually built the CP. It was built by the labors and deaths of the workforce of ~13,000 men, mostly Chinese. Financing was about half from US government bonds (repaid with interest) and half mortgage bonds. The CP also got land grants.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm It [the Central Paciic Railroad] was built by the labors and deaths of the workforce of ~13,000 men, mostly Chinese.
You are absolutely right in this point, Schlimm.
John
Ulrich It is surprising that so many of those vets from both sides would have wanted to attend.
It occurs to me, Ulrich, that we have wandered away from your original topic. I was wondering what happened to the Civil War Veterans between 1865 and 1913.
Nowhere was the story of the railroads more colorful than in the northern Virginia theater of operations up to and after the Battle of Gettysburg.
Haupt's contribution was the conversion of the single-track, 29-mile-long Western Maryland Railroad between Baltimore and Westminster from a railroad in poor condition into the successful supply line of Gen. George G. Meade's army during the campaign.
The Western Maryland was necessary because the B&O and the Northern Central did not provide adequate access to Gettysburg before the battle. Having lived in Gettysburg before the war, he was familiar with the railroads in the area. He devised a plan using train convoys, five trains at a time, instead of schedules, to bring in supplies and provisions. He also brought in his Construction Corps to bring the railroad up to speed. Following Haupt's instructions, the Construction Corps opened up the Northern Central to Hanover Junction and allowed that railroad to be used during the battle.
During the battle from July 1 to July 3, 1863, he was able to bring in supplies and bring out the wounded to Baltimore hospitals in a timely manner. By the end of the battle, rail supply lines to the Union army were delivering supplies beyond the daily requirements.
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2011/summer/usmrr.html
The logistics of moving veterans to the 1913 reunion were impressive. The logistics of 1863 were even more so.
Victrola1 100 years ago, were there many visiting the Gettysburg battle field at times other than veterans reunions? Were tourists a regular revenue source for railroads serving the town.
100 years ago, were there many visiting the Gettysburg battle field at times other than veterans reunions? Were tourists a regular revenue source for railroads serving the town.
Quite a few, so much so that by 1915 the Licensed Battlefield Guide program had been set up. It's still in existence today. Were tourists a revenue souce for Gettysburg area railroads. Absolutely.
What was most interesting to me about the article was the effort the governments, federal and state, especially PA, along with the Army quartermaster corps did to make it happen at all. Great effort, that I don't think that you would see today.
I had never read about that speech of Lincoln's. Thanks for sharing it. I think people forget Lincoln's age as President. He looked so old and aged. I think he was prematurely aged. Losing 2 sons and a Civil War in short order. I think one of the great loses with Lincoln's assassination was what he could have offered if he had lived and had good health for another 20 years. He would have left office at 60, just turning 60. He would have left office about the same age as George W. Bush.I'm 30 my grandmother who lived with us at the end said in her tiny town there were 2 Civil War vets living in the 20s.
Firelock76Quite a few, so much so that by 1915 the Licensed Battlefield Guide program had been set up. It's still in existence today. Were tourists a revenue souce for Gettysburg area railroads. Absolutely.
An interesting point, Wayne.
I wonder if a summer service between Harrisburg and Gettysburg operated by SEPTA or a tourist railroad would make any sense. I understand it is about 30 miles from Harrisburg to Gettysburg.
Hello John! Summer service between Philly or Harrisburg and Gettysburg provided by SEPTA? Hmm, interesting question. Gettysburg's quite outside the SEPTA area of responsibility, so I doubt they'd be interested. At any rate SEPTA's got budget problems right now as I understand it, they've got their hands full maintaining the infrastructure they've got.
I'm not sure just where the passenger service would go either. I visited Gettysburg three years ago and don't recall seeing any major rail lines close to the battlefield park. It doesn't mean they're not there, I just didn't see any.
Of course, rail passenger service to Gettysburg was at it's height when the passenger train was a major part of American society. Being in fairly close proximity to three major cities, i.e. Phiadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington passenger service to Gettysburg was a guaranteed money maker, especially from Washington. Quite a few military officers from the DC area used to visit the battlefield, still do as a matter of fact. In the 20's and 30's a Major George Patton was a frequent visitor, but that's another story.
A tourist railroad is fun to speculate on. Say, a 'road using replica 4-4-0 steam locomotives pulling replica 1860's passenger cars for the whole Civil War experience. I know it's being done now on a small scale, but doing it on a grand scale is what I'm thinking about.
Wayne
When I was 4 years old, my family moved from Salem Indiana to Indianapolis, but often went back to Salem to visit Mom's parents. Often we would go for a ride to the downtown square to stroll around (major bore for a kid, except when I got to sit on the lion statue outside the bank, or if I was good, we went to Neil's Ice Cream Parlor!!! ).
But on one of those strolls (probably in 1952 or so) we crossed the street to the courthouse to look at some statues (or something, I don't really remember why), and there were several OLD (and I do mean OLD!) men sitting on park benches in the lawn (last time I was there, the benches were gone... replaced by signs that read, "NO LOITERING!").
Dad struck up a conversation with one of them and asked how he was doing. They chatted a bit and something came up about him being a veteran of the Civil War (I thought they said 'Silver war'... what did I know I was about 6 years old at that time).
Anyway, he then commented that in the war he fought along side a man that was a veteran of the Revolutionary War!
I never really thought about that until I was in High School American History class and was thinking about how stupid is was to be studying such old history. Then I remembered that man and his comment. That sure "compressed" history for me. I have met a man who knew a man who had fought in the Revolutionary War.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Yes, since Gettysburg is southwest of Harrisburg, it is a little bit outside SEPTA's area. The Reading used to have a line down to Roundtop. I do not know when it was abandoned south of Gettysburg proper. The CNJ map (no RDG map in this issue) of the January, 1930, Guide shows the track going down to Round Top, but there is no table showing service to Round Top.
When I was in high school (early fifties) one of my classmates went to a Scout Jamboree at Gettysburg, and he arrived there by rail.
Johnny
A look at Google Earth shows that CSX still owns the ex WM line through Gettysburg, and the line looks well ballasted, and in good mainline shape . Pioneer Railcorp Operates the ex P&R line from Gettysburg Jct. to Carlisle Jct. (NS) The branch to Round Top is abandoned. http://pioneer-railcorp.com/get.html.
I followed the Pioneer Railcopr link and looked at the Gettysburg Northern. Didn't that used to be the old Gettysburg Railroad, the one that had the boiler failure in the 90's?
Hi, Semper Vaporo! A Civil War vet who fought alongside a Revolutionary War vet? Gee, I don't know, 80 years separates the two wars from one another. Chances are he KNEW a veteran of the Revolution and his memory was playing tricks on him.
No matter, you were accorded a priviledge given to few. I envy you.
Semper Vaporo When I was 4 years old, my family moved from Salem Indiana to Indianapolis, but often went back to Salem to visit Mom's parents. Often we would go for a ride to the downtown square to stroll around (major bore for a kid, except when I got to sit on the lion statue outside the bank, or if I was good, we went to Neil's Ice Cream Parlor!!! ). But on one of those strolls (probably in 1952 or so) we crossed the street to the courthouse to look at some statues (or something, I don't really remember why), and there were several OLD (and I do mean OLD!) men sitting on park benches in the lawn (last time I was there, the benches were gone... replaced by signs that read, "NO LOITERING!"). Dad struck up a conversation with one of them and asked how he was doing. They chatted a bit and something came up about him being a veteran of the Civil War (I thought they said 'Silver war'... what did I know I was about 6 years old at that time). Anyway, he then commented that in the war he fought along side a man that was a veteran of the Revolutionary War! I never really thought about that until I was in High School American History class and was thinking about how stupid is was to be studying such old history. Then I remembered that man and his comment. That sure "compressed" history for me. I have met a man who knew a man who had fought in the Revolutionary War.
The value of your experience is unquestionable; However, since the last undisputed Union veteran, Albert Woolson, died in 1956 and lived his entire life after the war in Minnesota (Duluth), the man you encountered in 1952 was probably not (though possibly) a veteran. The Grand Army of the Republic held annual encampments, the final one in Indianapolis in 1949. Lemuel Cook (1759 – 1866) was the last verifiable surviving veteran of the Revolutionary War. Since he was from CT and died in upstate NY, the odds seem pretty long that he encountered Civil War veterans before his death at age 107.
Albert Woolson: Born 22 years before the Golden Spike on the first transcontinental railroad, died 4 years before the last Class 1 steam locomotive dropped its fire for the last time. So much happened in a lifetime.
NorthWest Albert Woolson: Born 22 years before the Golden Spike on the first transcontinental railroad, died 4 years before the last Class 1 steam locomotive dropped its fire for the last time. So much happened in a lifetime.
Just think what has transpired in the most recent 107 years that include our lifetimes?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Firelock76 A tourist railroad is fun to speculate on. Say, a 'road using replica 4-4-0 steam locomotives pulling replica 1860's passenger cars for the whole Civil War experience. I know it's being done now on a small scale, but doing it on a grand scale is what I'm thinking about.
I guess, Wayne, speculating is all that we can do. But there is a lot of rail service between Philadelphia and Harrisburg and so I thought maybe enough people from the northeast would use it to make it work. It would be possible to make the trip from Boston in one day, tour Gettysburg and go back home. No lodging costs and no driving.
Hello John!
Tour Getttysburg in one day? Well, it could be done, but trust me you need at least three days (same as the battle incidentally) to do justice to the place. The musems, the monuments, the NPS Visitor Center with the Cyclorama (NOT to be missed!) , and the battlefield itself. One day just doesn't get it.
You could spend a lifetime just studying the regimental monuments, to say nothing of the battle itself.
Here is something to think about. The Battle at Gettysburg was started over Shoes and Food the Army of Northern Virginia was looking for Both at the time. They ran into Militia and ran them out of town. Then Buford showed up with his Division of Calvary and took the High ground dismounted his troops and held. He also wired that he needed help and Burnside sent help via the RR. Lee on the other hand was all stretched out and in fact Pickett did not show up till the Night BEFORE he made his Charge. Also Stuart was Beaten at Gettysburg by Custer and 1 Brigade of Michigan Calvary on the third day of battle otherwise Stuart would have turned the Flanks of the Union and who knows how the battle would have turned out.
The plain fact of the matter is Lee shouldn't have fought at Gettysburg. It wasn't planned that way, Gettysburg just happened to be where the Army of Northern Virginia and the Army of the Potomac collided.
The smart thing for Lee to have done was disengage, pivot around the Union forces, find some good defensive ground between the Army of the Potomac and Washington and let the Yankees batter themselves to pieces trying to remove the threat to DC.
But hey, this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part, I wasn't there, I wasn't in Lees shoes, I know things now that he didn't know then, the decision wasn't mine to make. Lee thought he could beat the Army of the Potomac, he'd beaten them plenty of times in the past, so he thought he could beat them again where he was.
But it just didn't work this time. Everything that could go wrong for the Confederates did go wrong, and we all know what happened. C'est la guerre.
In his after-action report to Jefferson Davis (which I've read, and is very well written by the way) Lee accepted full responsibility and blame for the defeat and tendered his resignation, which Jeff Davis refused to accept, saying in return he couldn't replace Lee.
Firelock76 But hey, this is Monday morning quarterbacking on my part, I wasn't there, I wasn't in Lees shoes, I know things now that he didn't know then, the decision wasn't mine to make. Lee thought he could beat the Army of the Potomac, he'd beaten them plenty of times in the past, so he thought he could beat them again where he was. But it just didn't work this time. Everything that could go wrong for the Confederates did go wrong, and we all know what happened. C'est la guerre.
Lots of controversy about all that, even now. Seems pretty clear that if Jeb Stuart had actually been there near the beginning, performing his assigned job of reporting Union troop movements back to Lee, Old Bobby might well have followed Longstreet's advice and done as you say above, gone on the defensive at a stronger position (as he had previously done at Chancellorsville) and let Meade destroy himself, opening the door to DC and the end of the war.
Firelock76You could spend a lifetime just studying the regimental monuments, to say nothing of the battle itself.
Not only do I agree with you, Wayne. But also many people do spend a lifetime on the Battle of Gettysburg. I just wish I could get there by train.
Firelock76In his after-action report to Jefferson Davis (which I've read, and is very well written by the way) Lee accepted full responsibility and blame for the defeat and tendered his resignation, which Jeff Davis refused to accept, saying in return he couldn't replace Lee.
A story I have read in several places is that after Pickett's Charge General Lee rode up to General Longstreet and gave an order: "General. Assemble your men."
Longstreet looked straight back at him and said "General Lee, I have no men."
Lee then looked down at the ground saying "It's my fault. It's all my fault."
Unidentified Man #2: I wish that all of you elsewhere could be in Gettysburg to see the most colorful sight of your lives. Early Wednesday morning, the opening date of the observance of the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, the first of 26 special trains rolled into this historic community. Laughing and crying and waving their hats, these old veterans, each with an attendant, detrained and were welcomed officially to Gettysburg.
Mr. MCDONOUGH: A sense of 19th century formality descended on Gettysburg. Some veterans arrived in uniform. Many sported tufts of white sideburns, mustaches and goatees. Despite the sweltering July heat, films show nearly everyone dressed in coats, vests and neckties.
(Soundbite of a news broadcast)
Unidentified Man #2: These fine old gentlemen boarded a fleet of buses and were taken to their tented city, the largest of its kind and the most modern ever constructed in peacetime.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106259780
"Old soldiers never die. They just fade away."
"It's all my fault..."
Quite true John. In deference to Robert E. Lee's admirers, and I'm one of them, it was his battle to lose.
Ignoring my previous warning to identify to whom I am replying, I suppose the Civil War veterans were all practicing AMERICANS following the war, at least those who attended the reunions. Yes, we Vietnam War veterans have visited our previous battle sites and conducted translator conversations with our battlefield opponents, from Generals and Colonels commanding, on down the line. By the way, The soldiers won the battles; reporters and polititions lost the war.JWH
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