jeffhergert There is a Rock Island heritage unit. The Iowa Interstate had their last Gevo delivered in a Rock Island inspired scheme similar to what the RI's first F units were delivered in. Jeff
There is a Rock Island heritage unit. The Iowa Interstate had their last Gevo delivered in a Rock Island inspired scheme similar to what the RI's first F units were delivered in.
Jeff
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Convicted One Now, given that set of circumstances, does brand recognition mean anything?
Now, given that set of circumstances, does brand recognition mean anything?
Murphy Siding Certainly, brand recognition is important- in the right context. For example, you'll be willing to pay more for Channel-Lok than for Irwin or Kobalt. But-and this here's your big but- what if Channel-Lok was the only option. At our yard, the three options we have for rail service are: BNSF, BNSF, and BNSF. I would bet that most shippers we buy from have similar, varied options.
Certainly, brand recognition is important- in the right context. For example, you'll be willing to pay more for Channel-Lok than for Irwin or Kobalt. But-and this here's your big but- what if Channel-Lok was the only option. At our yard, the three options we have for rail service are: BNSF, BNSF, and BNSF. I would bet that most shippers we buy from have similar, varied options.
Well, then, I think we're finally making progress...and just maybe a breakthrough might be near.
Suppose we leave that universe where you are the center of it for a few seconds, and let's imagine another one . Let's suppose you were a logistics officer for Duke Power. Or Dupont. Or Dow. or even Walmart. And since we are playing the "lets suppose" game, let's further speculate that you are in that job by choice, because you enjoy the work. You might even have a greater appreciation for the industry than your run of the mill American citizen. You MIGHT even be a railfan. And you might be in a position to control a significant volume of traffic.
So, your company has points of origin and destination where there are choices in who you might call. In fact if you are an importer, you might have a choice what port your container ships terminate in, based upon your preference of which land based carrier will close the final 1000 miles for you.
And let's further assume that your business is sufficiently important to the carriers that each is going to reach for your business. Each gives you the best price possible, and since each is a competent operator, doing everything right to control costs,their numbers are a push.
Certainly, brand recognition is important- in the right context. For example, you'll be willing to pay more for Channel-Lok than for Irwin or Kobalt. But-and this here's your big but- what if Channel-Lok was the only option. At our yard, the three options we have for rail service are: BNSF, BNSF, and BNSF. I would bet that most shippers we buy from have similar, varied options. If I'm buying a commodity (rail transportation) from a limited pool of suppliers (Class One railroads- my options generally number between 1 and 2), brand recognition doesn't pack quite the punch. Anyway, back to trains. Why no Milwaukee Road or Rock Island heritage units?
Murphy Siding Brand recognition! Why didn't I think of that? I imagine with the 50 or 60 Class One railroads out there, folks could lose focus on which of the 10 or 15 of them serve their needs best.
Brand recognition! Why didn't I think of that? I imagine with the 50 or 60 Class One railroads out there, folks could lose focus on which of the 10 or 15 of them serve their needs best.
Why then do companies such as Microsoft, or Coca-Cola advertise? Given your attitude wouldn't be smarter for them to simply say "no one is going to pay us more per sale on account of our image, our market share is sufficiently established that people's minds are already made up, they're either going to buy from us or one of our handful of competitors, so why advertise?"
IBM felt that way once, and it almost killed them.
Maybe I'm the odd ball, but I will pay more for a pair of groove lock pliers that say "Channel-Lok" on the side of them than I will if they say "Irwin" or "Kobalt", Just as I'll pay more for a pair of linesman pliers that say "Greenlee" on the side than I would if they say "Stanley" or 'Monkey Wards'...
Years ago when i built a new TV cabinet, I wanted the finest oak veneer plywood I could find, and ordered the edge materials milled to my specification, then spent hours building up a Minwax finish that was steelwooled with 0000 between coats. The thought of buying CDX and just slapping a coat of paint on it never occurred to me.
Convicted One I guess the point I've been failing to make with you is, brand recognition.
I guess the point I've been failing to make with you is, brand recognition.
Murphy Siding We're still working on the BNSF problem..... and shipping more goods in by truck. Now, the way I understand the situation, if BNSF were to start switching into our yard with heritage units, all our troubles would simply melt away. I wonder who I call, to request specific heritage units to do the switching?
We're still working on the BNSF problem..... and shipping more goods in by truck. Now, the way I understand the situation, if BNSF were to start switching into our yard with heritage units, all our troubles would simply melt away. I wonder who I call, to request specific heritage units to do the switching?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Murphy Sidingl. For example, if you were having heavy stuff moved on steel rails over long distances. In that case, I don't think you'll be wracking your brain, trying to remember the name of that railroad.( "Dang! I can almost remember the name of that railroad. It had orange engines. The name started with a B, had no vowels in it. I just wish I had saved that pack of matches with their logo on it. Now I'm screwed. I'll have to leaf through the yellow pages, until I see something familiar.") The heritage engine will give you a positive impression of the railroad. But, you'll still be checking the rates with the other railroad. In fact, you'd be checking the rates if neither railroad had heritage units. How do you decide which railroad to use, if they both have heritage units?
Well, if you have to ship across the Ohio river, you might start by confirming that either railroad's bridges are still standing.
I guess the point I've been failing to make with you is, brand recognition. If you're lucky enough to have it, then it's foolish to not cultivate it. When doing so equates to publicity, the end result is the same as advertising. Look at how much a 30 second spot on TV costs, and how soon that exposure closes.
With the heritage fleet, NS has moving billboards roaming half the continent, that should last at least 5 years. That should precipitate brand recognition.
So the next time you're at your local team track loading shackled boxcars with your personal furniture, and the guy running the switch engine waves to you, remember to smile back at him and assure him that with open access you could have a REAL railroad serving you featuring heritage liveries on their engines. Then ask him for a cab ride.
Murphy Siding I guess I'll just have to bow to your superior business sense that the shiny railroad is going to do better by you. Besides- I gotta go. A trucker just pulled in with a purple semi with flames. Flames!! Now we've just got to make sure that cat hauls all our incoming lumber from now on! Flames!!
I guess I'll just have to bow to your superior business sense that the shiny railroad is going to do better by you. Besides- I gotta go. A trucker just pulled in with a purple semi with flames. Flames!! Now we've just got to make sure that cat hauls all our incoming lumber from now on! Flames!!
I don't know Murph, I think you should specify a different trucker. Flames, or in other words fire, and lumber just doesn't sound like a good combination to me.
A while back Murphy had a thread about the level of service the lumber yard he works at was receiving from BNSF. I would like to know which would likely increase the lumber yard's use of the railroad. Better service or a BNSF heritage program.
(You know, if BNSF would switch the lumber yard with some GE engines, you might not need painted flames, you could have the real thing.)
How many companies have the option to select a RR to do the shipping? I might really like UP and I might really appreciate the SP heritage unit they have... and I might find that, in general, they have the lowest shipping rates for my particular product, but if my factory is in Maine and my customer is in Florida, I rather doubt if UP would be a viable option.
Where I live there are maybe 6 RRs that have track in the general area, but none of them go to all locations in the city so any company here probably has access to only ONE set of tracks (if any at all), so their RR of "choice" is limited to that RR whether they have heritage units or not.
If there are two RRs that go from "here" to "there" but only one has tracks anywhere near the factory and the same RR is the only one that has tracks anywhere near the customer, then how can the other RR even be considered?
I can see the PennCentral heritage unit giving a few old time traffic managers a heart attack... especially potato shippers in New England. Other than that its my favorite heritage unit...no nonsense black/dark green with a simpe logo.
"Mortality foamers" ! I guess if I worked at a real company, I wouldn't have found that so funny. Somewhere, Charles Addams is giggling. I understand what you're saying about keeping your name on people's minds. I'm saying, that in some lines industry, that might not be such a big deal. For example, if you were having heavy stuff moved on steel rails over long distances. In that case, I don't think you'll be wracking your brain, trying to remember the name of that railroad.( "Dang! I can almost remember the name of that railroad. It had orange engines. The name started with a B, had no vowels in it. I just wish I had saved that pack of matches with their logo on it. Now I'm screwed. I'll have to leaf through the yellow pages, until I see something familiar.") The heritage engine will give you a positive impression of the railroad. But, you'll still be checking the rates with the other railroad. In fact, you'd be checking the rates if neither railroad had heritage units. How do you decide which railroad to use, if they both have heritage units?
I think perhaps you are holding too fine a sieve in measuring "business benefit"
Does a life Insurance company print it's name on thousands of give away wall calendars with strict ambition that it will make their existing customers willing to pay more for the same coverage?
Does printing their name on calendars assure them that prospective customers will not shop the competition, before making a deal?
Do they go to the time and expense of making and distributing these give-aways soley to amuse mortality foamers?
Even when you are 'shopped' against the competition, it's still worth something to make sure potential customers call you at all. I know that back when I was marketing office space, getting people who were ready to consider moving to call me, was a high priority. Then, it was often up to me to decide how hard I was willing to reach for specific deals.
Wrestling a plum away from a competitor has to start somewhere.
Convicted One Murphy Siding . I don't think they are done with the intention of doing anything for the bottom line. I think perhaps you might be overlooking one aspect. People who (working their jobs) ship often by railroad are more aware of railroads than your average John Q. Public. As such, awareness of the heritage program MIGHT be higher among that group, than the public at large. I don't know how many of the heritage units you've seen in person, but when i have seen them, they are a treat. You just never know where one will turn up, and which one it might be. The effect this has on me personally, when i see a train coming on an NS line, I'm looking anxiously to see if I'm gonna see a heritage unit that I haven't seen already. It gets me to pay attention to the railroad. Now If I was a big company, and there was something I could do to inspire even 20% of my potential customer base to pay unique attention to me, where they might see me coming down the avenue and wait in wonder if they were going to see something "special".....that's good advertising. It might not have the broad appeal of playing monopoly at McDonalds, but then the railroads would probably have a hard time getting their engine crews to dress like Ronald.
Murphy Siding . I don't think they are done with the intention of doing anything for the bottom line.
. I don't think they are done with the intention of doing anything for the bottom line.
I think perhaps you might be overlooking one aspect.
People who (working their jobs) ship often by railroad are more aware of railroads than your average John Q. Public. As such, awareness of the heritage program MIGHT be higher among that group, than the public at large.
I don't know how many of the heritage units you've seen in person, but when i have seen them, they are a treat. You just never know where one will turn up, and which one it might be.
The effect this has on me personally, when i see a train coming on an NS line, I'm looking anxiously to see if I'm gonna see a heritage unit that I haven't seen already.
It gets me to pay attention to the railroad.
Now If I was a big company, and there was something I could do to inspire even 20% of my potential customer base to pay unique attention to me, where they might see me coming down the avenue and wait in wonder if they were going to see something "special".....that's good advertising.
It might not have the broad appeal of playing monopoly at McDonalds, but then the railroads would probably have a hard time getting their engine crews to dress like Ronald.
Convicted One ... but then the railroads would probably have a hard time getting their engine crews to dress like Ronald.
In this country, at least.
In Japan, now ... it's a bit different...
Murphy Siding they don't even check the rates from the rusty bridge railroad? I can readily see where this might make a difference in a sale involving emotions and intangibles- Coke or Pepsi, this roofer, or that roofer- but I bet it becomes less of a factor, as it becomes more of a money issue in selling a product.
they don't even check the rates from the rusty bridge railroad?
I can readily see where this might make a difference in a sale involving emotions and intangibles- Coke or Pepsi, this roofer, or that roofer- but I bet it becomes less of a factor, as it becomes more of a money issue in selling a product.
Well, if your needs were substantial, and performance was critical, the "spit shine" railroad's promises might appear more credible than those of rusty ole Chuckie.
henry6 Semper Vaporo I think it is merely a matter of keeping the names, logo's, livery and advertising phrases of the predicessor lines as "in use" and "current" to keep someone from using them under the claim that they were abandoned. Excellent point...could even be a legality....
Semper Vaporo I think it is merely a matter of keeping the names, logo's, livery and advertising phrases of the predicessor lines as "in use" and "current" to keep someone from using them under the claim that they were abandoned.
I think it is merely a matter of keeping the names, logo's, livery and advertising phrases of the predicessor lines as "in use" and "current" to keep someone from using them under the claim that they were abandoned.
Excellent point...could even be a legality....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeffhergertDoes NS even really have the rights to all the former logos? Remember part of Conrail went to CSX, too.
No. NS has rights to NW and SOU and their predecessors only. Conrail did not get rights for their former roads - they remained with what was left of the original roads once the RR assets were sold to Conrail.
NittanyLion Well, yes. You have to match the colors and the design exactly or you've created a derivative work not recreated the original...
OK, then, show me the pictures of SD70M-2s in passenger service on the Pennsy... <G>
I understand the general suspicion of these things since UP made such a stink about attempting to 'protect its mark' with every little thing. But that doesn't have to be made a cash cow, either, as UP tried to do by charging higher license fees for each use. Has NS actually done anything to restrict access to five-stripe lettered for Pennsylvania since the Heritage locomotives were built?
By your own definition, if a modeler -- or recreator of the Pennsy 'look' -- used a different width in the five stripes, or nose curvature, or exact typeface and size used in the lettering, say -- it's a derivative work that doesn't qualify for trademark protection? I don't think so. On the other hand, the issue might well boil down to who had the better fancy lawyers, or deeper pockets and more patience, or if the lawyers could make superbly effective threats to cease and desist. Which, to my knowledge and to their credit, doesn't seem to be the case with models or artwork of the various precursor legacy schemes, so far.
Now, models and decal sets of the Heritage engines themselves -- that's another story. And yes, I'd think NS is entitled to license those designs (perhaps saying they're earmarking the license-fee revenue for the steam program...).
Have you actually looked at the USPTO records to see if NS has current mark registration for the various legacy schemes, or elements of them? Some very interesting agencies own effective (or lapsed, but recorded) rights to "PRR" keystone designs, for example...
zugmann NittanyLion That's all I ever thought it was. Gotta protect your marks. Just like the airlines with their heritage liveries. That's why they put tons of research into these engines, pulled paint samples and worked with historical societies to best fit the paint schemes to modern power. And then they gathered them all for a giant railfan party. Yeah, just to protect their marks. Sure. Whatever you say.
NittanyLion That's all I ever thought it was. Gotta protect your marks. Just like the airlines with their heritage liveries.
That's all I ever thought it was. Gotta protect your marks. Just like the airlines with their heritage liveries.
That's why they put tons of research into these engines, pulled paint samples and worked with historical societies to best fit the paint schemes to modern power. And then they gathered them all for a giant railfan party. Yeah, just to protect their marks. Sure. Whatever you say.
Well, yes. You have to match the colors and the design exactly or you've created a derivative work not recreated the original.
Does NS even really have the rights to all the former logos? Remember part of Conrail went to CSX, too.
Plus when Conrail formed, they bought the physical assets of the former railroads. Some of the former companies corporate structures remained and continued after leaving the railroad business. They may maintain the rights, even though they no longer use the name in their everyday affairs. I'm sure that NS when doing the heritage units made sure they either had the right to, or permission to use those logos.
I'm sure the reasons they did this were more internal than external. Sure it will get them some attention in the everyday press, but as some have said, outside of railfans i'm not sure the attention will be worth much or be very lasting. I'm reminded of the time shortly after the UP took over the CNW. They were running the 844 over the CNW for the first time. My wife and I were parked along the highway east of Boone, like a multitude of others, waiting for it. A car pulled over with a family who just happened to be driving by. The mother asked me what was going on, why all the people? I told her about the steam engine coming. Her reaction was like, "Yeah, so what? Is that something special?" So the family, with children who probably had never seen a steam engine before, drove off. They didn't think it worth waiting for, it was just another train to them. I suspect there are many people out there with similar attitudes. Thankfully, not everyone though.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
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There's also something to be said for appearing frugal and careful with money. I wouldn't want my customers to think they're overpaying me. It is hard to justify things like fuel surcharges or accessorial charges when you roll into the plant with a fancy shmancy paint scheme. This is also why I rarely wear suits... the impression I want to leave is "I'm careful with your money" But maybe it is different for very large companies where more effort needs to be made to cultivate employee pride and involvement..so maybe in the case of NS, the heritage project does provide a positive return.
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