Vicksburg is still high above the Mississippi River:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=vicksburg+ms&aq=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl
Given that Vicksburg was the home of Jeff Davis and a hotbed for the KKK and a place of activity of the paramilitary Red Shirts after the war, as well as the scene of the Vicksburg Massacre in which 50 to 300 blacks were killed, it seems odd to suggest that secession was unpopular.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
OK, I didn't get my facts straight on this one, sorry. The Mississippi changed it's course in 1876 due to a flood, leaving the old course past the town a shallow channel. The Corps of Engineers diverted the Yazoo River in 1903 to restore the old channel and shipping to the town.
Which means in case there's ever a rematch between North and South Vicksburg's going to be in a hell of a lot of trouble again! Better start stockpiling MRE's folks, they sure beat "Rats-a-Roni"!
Yes, Old Man River has made many changes in his course, usually shortening it (Mark Twain commented in his Life on the Mississippi to the effect that as the river keeps cutting loops off that, given time enough, it will be possible to stroll from St. Louis to New Orleans, or something like that. And, there were tales of steamboats being stranded away from the channel because the river bypassed loops that the boats were in.
If you look at a map of the course of the river, you will find such interesting things that parts of Mississippi are on the Arkansas side of the river, and parts of Arkansas are on the Mississippi side.
Johnny
schlimmGiven that Vicksburg was the home of Jeff Davis
Actually, Schlimm, Jeff Davis was never a fire eater either. In 1860 he made speeches in New England about why the Union was important and he strongly suggested the states wanting to secede should meet and act as one rather than seceding one at a time. His suggestion was, of course, rejected. However, when Mississippi did decide to secede he felt it was his duty to stand by his State. He did that and never looked back. Before the war Davis was one of the wealthiest men in the country. He lost everything, was reduced to very little and spent the last years of his life living on the charity of Sarah Dorsey, a wealthy woman who admired him.
Firelock76The Corps of Engineers diverted the Yazoo River in 1903 to restore the old channel and shipping to the town
Left to nature the MIssissippi would be running down the Achafalaya River and would no longer go by New Orleans. The Army Corps of Engineers put a stop to that too.
The move "The Horse Soldiers" was a VERY fictionalized account of Girerson's raid, but the general premise of the movie are true. He moved from southern Tenessee through Newton's Station down to Baton Rouge, burning and destroying everying in his path, especially railraod equipment and infrastructure in order to help starve Vicksburg into submission. General Grant got troops down the Mississippi past Vicksburg and cut it off completely. Two months after Grierson's raid Vicksburg did surrender.
gsrrmanGeneral Grant got troops down the Mississippi past Vicksburg and cut it off completely. Two months after Grierson's raid Vicksburg did surrender.
As you point out, Vicksburg was starved into submission. And many other places were too.
When the British considered that it was impossible to mantain a colony that did not wish to be maintained as a colony they did not mean that it was impossible to use overwhelming force to get that colony to submit. Rather, they meant that if you did use such overwhelming force that you would leave a level of bitterness that ran so deep the colony would be of no value to you.
The British were correct in that the Civil War left the former Confederates deeply embittered. But the American south was not and never had been a colony. And at the beginning of the war no one expected it would last very long. Had the Union recognized the Confederacy's right to secede the country most likely would have become Balkanized as other parts seceded too. The United States would simply have ceased to exist.
zugmann John WR [snipped - PDN] . . . Lee saw the whole of the whole of the Shenandoah Valley lay waste by all of the fighting and how it impoverished all of the people living there. He believed that if he could march into the north and bring that kind of terror and destruction to the people they would demand that Lincoln make peace. He had hoped to go to Harrisburg but somehow the battle wound up at Gettysburg. The battle did not turn out as he planned. Emphasis mine - zug. Here's a good reason (or at least part of it) for that "somehow": http://www.pacivilwartrails.com/stories/tales/burning-the-wrightsville-bridge From what I have read, Gordon's brigade then went up to Gettysburg to join other forces.
John WR [snipped - PDN] . . . Lee saw the whole of the whole of the Shenandoah Valley lay waste by all of the fighting and how it impoverished all of the people living there. He believed that if he could march into the north and bring that kind of terror and destruction to the people they would demand that Lincoln make peace. He had hoped to go to Harrisburg but somehow the battle wound up at Gettysburg. The battle did not turn out as he planned.
Here's a good reason (or at least part of it) for that "somehow":
http://www.pacivilwartrails.com/stories/tales/burning-the-wrightsville-bridge
From what I have read, Gordon's brigade then went up to Gettysburg to join other forces.
*See: http://www.pa-mag.com/ - the current issue has a photo essay on trolley museums in Pennnsylvania, and the website has several links to railroad-related articles, events, links, etc.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jrthe current issue has a photo essay on trolley museums in Pennnsylvania,
An early transit line was the Ponchartrain Railroad often called Smokey Mary. The line consisted of street cars drawn by a steam locomotive. It ran from 1830 to 1930 along Elysian Fields Avenue in New Orleans. The line started downtown at the Mississippi River and ran to Milneberg on the lake. It operated freight trains as well as street cars. It was operating during the time General Ben Butler was in charge of New Orleans.
Lest anyone get the wrong impression of my less-than-favorable opinion of "The Horse Soldiers", let me hasten to add that there's no such thing as a BAD John Wayne movie! Some are better than others of course, but no bad ones!
"Hi-ho, on we go, there's no such word as can't, we'll ride straight down to Hell and back for Ulysses Simpson Grant!"
Was there any attempt by European creditors or their governments to force the USA government to meet Confederate depts?
It's probable that nobody ever tried. Read the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and you'll know why.
Those European creditors, private and government took a chance and bet on the wrong side. They were SOL and the 14th Amendment closed the book. on any debt repayment, including by any states of the CSA in 1868:
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
daveklepperWas there any attempt by European creditors or their governments to force the USA government to meet Confederate depts?
I've read that Europeans, and especially the British, believed that Confederate cotton bonds would be honored regardless of who won the war. A lot of war supplies had been sold to the Confederacy and almost all of it was sold on credit. However, Schlimm is right: The creditors were SOL.
I had forgotten the 14th. Thanks for the reminder.
Not only did Confederate debts go unpiad; there is also the issue of the Alabama claims. British ship builders built ships for the Confederate Navy. Those ships then went to France to be armed. Then at sea the titles were transferred to the Confederate Government. In many cases the officers on the ships were British Naval Officers on leave and even some of the men were British. These ships totally destroyed the American merchant marine fleet. The CSS Alabama was the worst of these. After the war America pursued the British Government for assisting the Confederacy. The British never admitted that they had done so but they did pay over $15 million in compensation for the Alabama claims.
John WRNot only did Confederate debts go unpiad; there is also the issue of the Alabama claims. British ship builders built ships for the Confederate Navy. Those ships then went to France to be armed. Then at sea the titles were transferred to the Confederate Government.
And if you think the sailing raiders were bad ... imagine the fun if the rams had been delivered in 1862...
(Incidentally, Rocky Semmes was a friend in the architecture & urban planning school, and Kattie Mosby was and is a good friend. How time heals at least some of the wounds ...)
FWIW, there are some good (and some not so good) discussions of the Civil War "what ifs" at this site. Some interesting (and eye rolling) ones, too, about railroads.
http://alternatehistory.com/
Lest we wander too far afield in this forum...
OvermodAnd if you think the sailing raiders were bad ... imagine the fun if the rams had been delivered in 1862...
As it was the Confederacy won the Naval War. The Union lost its whole merchant marine.
What is your evidence for that assertion? Confederate raiders captured or sank about 200 ships of the Northern merchant fleet out of how many? The Union Riverine Navy destroyed the Confederate's and controlled the commerce on the Mississippi. The Union Navy increasingly was able to blockade southern ports.
You've got me Schlimm. I learned this from a lecture by an amateur historian many years ago but I've even forgotten his name and I cannot give you a reference.
However, I was referring to to ocean shipping; not lakes and rivers. And I was not referring to Union Navy ships but rather commercial ships. I should have made that clear but I didn't. In fact it took a long time but ultimately the Union did accomplish Winfield Scott's Anaconda strategy of surrounding the Confederacy and cutting off all of its supplies. But the Port of Wilmington, North Carolina remained open until early 1865.
So I was asserting that Union ocean going merchant shipping was destroyed. However, I cannot now provide a source for that statement.
I understand. I referred to the entire naval war, which clearly was won by the US Navy, at sea and the rivers. As to the notion the US commercial fleet was destroyed, i presented the number of commercial northern ships, aka, the merchant marine, lost or captured as ~200. That was a lot, but I doubt if it is close to the entire US merchant marine.. I did some research and found the text of a history of US commercial shipping, 1620 to 1902. http://archive.org/stream/cu31924024731659/cu31924024731659_djvu.txt I found the following:Total tonnage US ships
spring 1861 = 2,496,894
1866 = 1,387,756
Confederate sunk 1861-65 = 110,000
Sold to foreign nations = 751,595
schlimmI did some research and found the text of a history of US commercial shipping, 1620 to 1902.
Thank you for your research, Schlimm. However, I think you misplaced a decimal point and meant to write that the Confederate Navy sunk 1,100,000 (one million 100 thousand) tons.
In the face of this destruction I believe that many Union ship owners sold their vessels to foreign owners.
There is also the insurance factor to consider. In the First World war, the commerce raider the S.M.S. Emden was sinking everything on the Indian ocean in 1914. It paralised shipping as cargoes and ships could not be insured when there was an enemy cruiser out there. Ships stayed in port once word got out about the Emden. I imagine the same thing applied with the C.S.S. Alabama, not to mention around Somalia today.
54light15I imagine the same thing applied with the C.S.S. Alabama, not to mention around Somalia today.
Yes, I think you're right. It was also an opportunity for Britain as the British merchant marine promptly move in to carry what Americans had been carrying.
John WRAs it was the Confederacy won the Naval War. The Union lost its whole merchant marine.
Somebody is defining things a peculiar way.
The Alabama and other raiders were the only real deepwater Navy the Confederates were able to muster. The Union activity was largely concerned with blockade running... which, as you know, as with most smuggling, involves transfer from seagoing vessels in international waters -- or had you forgotten Mason & Slidell and that whole brouhaha? -- and certainly none of that activity would benefit from any particularly large class of capital ship the Confederacy could either build or man. Up to the time of the Laird rams (CSS North Carolina and CSS Mississippi), the ironclad designs on both sides were... to put it gently, primitive in any kind of oceangoing sense.
If you take the '200 ships' figure and consider it as deadweight tons, what average weight per ship do you get for the various numbers being 'discussed' here? Compare that with the likely class of ship the Alabama would be able to catch and destroy. Or would you prefer to work the other way, starting with somebody's estimate of total tonnage... perhaps derived from Union insurance claims, a not-entirely-credible source if you take my meaning... or the roughly 6 and a half million of damage claimed, and see how many ships you get. (Then divide that into the time the Alabama was at sea, and figure out how tired they must have become...)
I suspect that if you compare the number of ships, or total tons, sunk by the Alabama to the overall shipped tonnage of the Union's merchant marine during this time, you will find it relatively slight. On the other hand, the terror factor was enormous; when you consider the number of ships the Alabama stopped (about 450) vs. the number sunk (I give credence to 65) you can appreciate that an effective means of sailing under some flag of convenience, with papers that would hold up, would be a significant approach for Union shipowners to take -- hence, the large number of reported sales to foreign entities...
From the standpoint of steam technology and marine engineering, the blockade runners were far more interesting, and often as daringly and sensibly captained and crewed...
Overmodor had you forgotten Mason & Slidell and that whole brouhaha?
I think those names have not been totally erased from my memory. I think you refer to the Trent affair. James Mason went on to England where he met unofficially with Foreign Secretary Lord John Russell and arranged to buy a year's production of rifles. The Foreign Secretary would not wait for the US Minister Charles Francis Adams. It was all very clever. Such was Britain's neutrality.
John WR schlimmI did some research and found the text of a history of US commercial shipping, 1620 to 1902. Thank you for your research, Schlimm. However, I think you misplaced a decimal point and meant to write that the Confederate Navy sunk 1,100,000 (one million 100 thousand) tons. In the face of this destruction I believe that many Union ship owners sold their vessels to foreign owners.
Winfield Scott's Anaconda Plan was one of the keys to the Union victory by eliminating Confederate traffic on the rivers and gradually blockading most ports.
schlimmhe number is 110,000 tons
OK. I though one number was supposed to be subtracted from the other.
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