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Why The Goverment should repo Union Pacific!

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 5, 2004 7:39 PM
I'm getting what your saying now-

And I agree with Andrew about Radical change: he can answer this Question:

What law does Ontario have that No other province or place in North America has?

That Law is Radical change!

Andrew. your chance:
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Posted by morseman on Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:31 PM
two good arguments going on here.......... UP and Canada/US..............just a few words from a proud Canadian in Bracebridge, Ontario........One reason we now have to have our photos on our health card here was because many Americans were coming north and using the cards of relatives or friends to get free health care............Several years ago I thought I was having a heart atack- all the regular systems so. I was immediately admitted to Montreal Gen. Hospital and under observation for two days. Turned out it was only gall-bladder problem. I t was determined that I have all kinds of tests done and entered hospital a few weeks later for the operation. Was in for almost a week . ........About a week later I developed a deep vein thrombosis in my leg and was immediately readmitted and was under medication for a few weeks till things stabalized.................Went home and was off work for three weeks as my body had trouble stabalizing to the cudemin pills. Total charge for all this.......Seventeen dollars (17) this was for a tv I had in my room for a few days which I hardly watched so I had it removed. My wife and I are not wealthy, but living comfortably. What would this have cost me in the U.S. My daugher & son-in-law live in the States and they are on a bare-bones budget and the amount they pay in health care is horendous. ..........(Did I spell that right)??????
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Posted by Junctionfan on Sunday, September 5, 2004 9:02 PM
Some times radical change is necessary though. I would remind Americans that the Revolution against the British Empire who was screwing the thirteen colonies for some damn reason, was radical but necessary. The abolishment of slavery against blacks in particular was radical and caused a civil war unfortunately but was necessary. The beginning of railroads which incidentally recieved very generous grants from the federal government was radical but necessary. During the civil war era, the federal government introduced high tariffs on foreign imports making Americans more encouraged to buy American-made goods as they were cheaper now was radical but necessary. You could argue easily that the settling of the west was radical change but necessary. The industrial revolution was radical change but necessary, The founding of the present day unions at one time was big-time radical but necessary, In the old days when folk in the eastern coast use to burn "witches" like candles and were obviously told not to do it any more was radical but necessary thing. The slaughtering of the many Indians which was our shining achievement of shame was radical and at the time was thought to be necessary, The purchasing of Louisiana from the French was radical but necessary, the purchase of Alaska from Russia was radical but necessary, the wright brothers' investion to be adopted as common form of transportation was radical but necessary, Women's rights was radical but necessary, the Apollo space program was radical but necessary, even recently the creation of the Department of Homeland Security was radical change but necessary.

You get my point. The U.S is a country based on radical change which makes me bewildered as to why they wouldn't do something like public healthcare or direct interfearance with the railroads. It maybe against the law but the law can change. It might be a radical change but it might be too necessary to ignore. Radical change is what keeps us moving forward in the world as we can not always continue with the status quo. Good example is the computer which was radical change but it too was necessary. Also I notice that radical change often results from radical situations. Why wait until something bad happens? Why do you think that the government requires large buildings to have some sort of fire prevention? I seem to hear alot of foot draging comments. Although their comments are valid, you can't hold back progress forever. More and more people are concerned now with the issues of present day health care and the way railroads operate as I have seen from articles in newspapers, the news, the political party conventions and so on. It would appear that alot of people in the U.S agree that it is time for a change.

Andrew
Andrew
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 6, 2004 1:00 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Kevin:


What I believe you were proposing is a compulsory spin-off. The U.S. government is highly restricted in its authority to compel a private company to either acquire a unit, or dispose of a unit. If you wanted a compulsory spin-off of a UP component, your first problem is that the laws don't exist to give the government the authority to do this.

There's little to prevent UP's owners from approving a voluntary spin-off, however. You could either purchase enough control of UP to do what you wanted with it, or, you could convince the owners that it was in their best interest. Under current U.S. law, these are your only viable options.


The Bell companies thought it would never happen to them.....
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 6, 2004 8:37 PM
600 posts Mr Hemphill, are you rigging the numbers- seems like yesturday you were at 35

Andrew- What you posted were all true, However- your looking at it from the Liberal-left

What about the Conservative right?

Remember- the pengilum has to swing on both sides-

Your comparing Two different nations, Canada being very Liberal, And USA being Conservative.

Not that theres anyhting wrong with conservatisim- conserving the past is okay at certain times. there is no progression, and problem solving comes from the solutions given many years ago, and with a vision not to try new things

I'm a liberal- you probobly noticed-

But conservative on certain issues-
but i'm mostly liberal- A socialist, except when it comes to Welfare, then I'm a conservative-

Socialists believe welfare is ok, Canservatives think it needs to be constantly monitored for the gaugers, Like My Friend Ed does or did.

Rememebr, there are two sides to this coin-
And I agee whole heartedly with what you've had to say- I just can't see a radicla change comming.

and you didn't answer my question about Ontario's Radical change from the rest of canada- about dec. 1997 or1995- Do you know what the law is i'm tlaking about?
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Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 6, 2004 10:32 PM
I am a N.D.P guy and proud of it. I don't really like to think like a conservative too much besides they are no longer conservatives now that MacKay found Harper's butt with his lips to form the "new and improved" "conservative" party.

Even though some of my comments sound conservative, alot of what I say is geared for all the working class. Why can't governments invest in businesses and open crown corporations solely for the purpose of increasing Canada's purse so it can spend more money on healthcare, education and other things without having to choose either raising taxes or cutting services? That is my idea of conservative without betraying the working class and remaining left. No one with intelligence would advocate on staying to one side of the political spectrum on every issue. That is not fence-sitting, it is being wisely flexible. It's not like flip-floping which I did earlier on when I was fairly new to the forum and didn't want to cause an arguement-I won't do this anymore as I failed anyways.

I believe welfare is O.K but needs to be monitored. You see, alot of people can't find jobs too. It's not just bums who don't want to work, it's skilled labourers who can't find the work for various reasons from not being able to find a job in the area (including recessions) to stupid red tape from businesses (you are over-qualified, you are a first time worker and they want previous job experience). If they have a family, their only recourse is welfare or unemployement insurance.

As far as your question, the common sense revolution was anything but common sense. The conservative's stupidity has buggered up Ontario's healthcare, education, energy sector, environment (Walkerton rings a bell), and labour. They have contributed to increases in homelessness and have cause a gigantic increase in property taxes from downloading and inefficient funding to the municipalities. They pretty much caused the major confrontation at Ipperwash from interfearing with the O.P.P as the public inquiry is finding out, they went around blaming problems they caused on everybody else and thease so called "conservatives" still managed to leave over 4 billion deficet in an economic recovery. When Bob Rae was premier (NDP), he left a deficet because he had to help maintain the people's standard of living in a really bad recession and even than he didn't leave that big of a deficit in comparison to the conservatives' crisis of deficit plus the fall out of the "Common Sense Revolution".
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 6, 2004 10:59 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

... and laws had to be written first to make it legal, too.


true,...but I don't believe that is such an overwhealming obstacle. As a society we like to pretend our rights are so "secure", that we have "protections" yada yada. But, without going too far off into a sociological tangent, we are also very vain creatures, and as such are particularly suceptable to clever "spin mongering" presented under the pretense that " we can make *this* a better world" by deft manipulators using their favorite ploy......"The Greater Common Good"


Reason why I used that illustration? Well as example that changing the laws is not that hard, ONCE ONE MANAGES TO BUILD THE CONCENSUS that something should be done. Protections for corporate entities, outside of their own deep pockets, are no more secure,..provided a "cause" worthy of action can be established.

As it pertains to UP,....(bet you were wondering when I'd get to that), most of the negative sentiment against UP that I see stems from things such as: 1) they gobbled up someones favorite fallen flag, 2) Modelers are upset because UP rightly decided to protect it's trademark 3) Employees of railroads aquired by UP liked their old jobs with the former way of doing things more than they like the UP way of doing things, and 4) nostalgia buffs resistant to change, disturbed because UP operates the line near their house differently than they used to enjoy.

None of those reasons are very compelling for justification to drag out "the heavy guns" (the greater common good) So, change is unlikely... Let a compelling reason materialize, such as (example) another meltdown spurring hoards of irate customers, some with pockets deep enough for serious lobbying action, and I think laws prescribing divesture could come rather swift (that's my own opinion, anyway).

Absent a worthy cause to "slay" it, dragons are allowed to (and are even expected to) be dragons, but let the perception of a worthy cause enter the picture, and the "white knights" come out of the woodwork, slinging swords and chanting of "the betterment for all".

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Posted by Junctionfan on Monday, September 6, 2004 11:10 PM
White knights protect the kingdom from being set in flames.
Andrew
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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:24 AM
This might clear up some of the confusion,
then again, maybe not,
But here goes...

Our founding father were of the opinion that the less government interfers with the lives of the citizens, the better.

In fact, the original concept was to establish a formal standing Army to defend the new nation, administer the collective executive functions of the seperate states, and establish a federal government to establish limited federal policy to govern those states on a limited basis.

Jefferson, one of the framers of our constitution, wanted to base almost all the legal precepts on a agricultural based soceity, Franklin leaned more towards a industrial based, business orinented idea....
The compromise is what you know as the current constitution, which, by the way, was designed from the begining to be a changable document.
Jefferson wanted to include in it the legal requirement that it be scrapped every 10 years or so, so that each generation would have to start over and write a new one, the idea being that as times changed, the laws should follow suit, with each generation being able to write their own laws for their own times...

Instead, the ability to write admendents, with the necessity of the general populace to vote on, and approve said admendents, was included instead.

So, yes, if the general populace decided on a radical change in policy, then it could happen, but...

Such a change would have to, for lack of a better description, be run through the legal mill, be presented to our congress, pass muster in front of our Supreme Court, so forth and so on.

Andrew, you mentioned the Applo project as a radical change, when in fact, it was no such thing.
Going to the moon took almost ten years to accomplish,and once there, we quit after only a few visits.
Why?
Because we discovered there was no financial benefit to establish a coloney there.
Instead, it was the natural progression of our quest for military supremacy, pitched to the American public by one of our most effective Presidents, JFK.

You also called the civil rights movement a radical change, forgetting that its roots, the American Civil War, was fought almost a century before, with no clear results in the treatment of blacks beyond the establishment of laws that were rarely followed.

Almost every civilization has, at some point, established such laws, and almost every one promptly ignored them.

While I applaude you for supporting, and believing so much in your form of goverment, and it's culture and soceity's value system, I wi***o caution you on passing judgement on the American system, until you become a citizen here, and participate in it.

This is one of the few nations on earth were the individule isn't subordinate to the state, and where individule freedoms don't take a back seat to the needs of the government.
Our nation was founded, in part, on the concept that the right of the citizens come first, before the needs of the government, and that the government was, and still is, a instrument of the citizens will and wishes.

Here, outside military and national emergencies, our goverment can not "pass laws" or alter exsisting laws without the consent of the people.

Also note that almost every single nation on this planet has, at some point in time, borrowed huge amounts of money from our lending institutions and our goverment.
Almost every nation too, has requested of us some form of aid, be it famine relief, military help, or some form of economic help.

Canada itself has dipped into the well of American generosity on occasion, as have most South American nations.
We routinely provide you with economic aid, in some form or fashion.
Trade agreements, the forgiving of debts in exchange for goods or services, the lowering of interest rates to facilitate or ease in the repayment of said debts is common, but not often mentioned in debates.
During WWII, America was the arsenal of the free world, providing weapons, men and material to the Allies in quanities that stagger the imagination, and almost all of it was nevre paid for by those who received it.

I noticed the rest of the world never seems to mind knocking us, and never seems to tire of pointing out what they see as our short comings, but I also note then don't seem to mind eating the wheat we grow, or borrowing our money.
They quickly call on our military might when they get in trouble, yet as soon as we take care of their problem and leave, they dont hesitate to begin calling us imperialist war mongers, or worse.

Frankly, Andrew, your views are very limited by your experiences...not that being young is somehow wrong, but being arrogant and highly opiniated is.

When your view of a hards days work is moving office funiture, and almost having something heavy fall on you is your concept of dangerous, well...

I have lived, briefly, in your country, and found the people there to be the most excellent hosts one could ask for...

But I have also lived in the Soivet Union, Japan, England, Germany, and India, where I learned the true meaning of the concept of compasion, and the horrifying,and destructive power racisim, and the caste system, can have on the human sprit.

I have seen people beaten with bamboo slats, because they allowed their shadow to fall on a person of a higher caste.
I watched a old man being being paid for cleaning out a toilet, with a cup of water from that same toilet, because the owner of the home felt it beneath him to allow this person to drink from the same facuet as he did.

I have seen children in the Sudan, attempting to eat raw grain, because thats all they had.
I have brought three lives into this world,
and taken one mans life away.
And I have been lucky enought to have saved a life also, so I might just be square with God on that one, maybe.

But before you continue to tell me whats so wrong with my country, you might want to tell us what, exactly, you have done to make this world a better place for us all, besides learning how to compose music for the piano.

What did you change in Canada to make it a better place to live?

Which injustice did you redress, and what do you plan to do about all the other un- fair, wrong, and imoral things that happen every day in this world?

I dont consider Americans superior to the rest of the world, nor do I feel I am better than most, neither by birth or caste, color or religion.

But I did find most of your statements on your life experience to be rather pompous and arrogant, and even though they managed to give me a reason to chuckle, they also gave me a reason to pity you, too.

Your secluded life has limited your view of the world, and your lack of experience left you navie.

You called me rude and cheeky, and a barbarian...true through out,,,but then, I have been called a lot worse things, by a lot better people...

You missed almost every thing myself, Gabe, Mark and Limitedclear and others have tried to show you...

That here, in America, there is no guarantee you can or will succeed, no promise of a lifetime of support...but there is the guarantee that the goverment cant force you to fail, it cant decide what you have to be, or limit how far you go, or how much you make, where you have to live, what language you have to speak..

There aren't too many other countries where I could write "The President (George Bush) Sucks" on a public forum, and not have the police knocking on my door later that night.

While I am glad you like living in a soceity where your needs are met, cradle to grave, I am also glad that you, not me, pays so much in taxes to support that system, and live under the limits such a system imposes.

As for me, I will take the barbaric,, backwards, uncouth and impratical ole USA over everyhwere else I have lived.

Because here, I get to tell my goverment what to do, not the other way around.

And, while your claim to fame is having hobknobed with a harpichordest, world reknowned or other wise,

I have had lunch with a Admiral, played golf with a two star General, and taught a Air Force Major to ride a horse.

I have laughingly gone surfing in a hurrican, stood in my front yard and screamed at a tornado, and whispered at a African sunset that defies description.

I have held a old man as he died, and cradled my newborn daughter as she drew her first breath.

I have hunted deer in west Texas, and gone fishing in the sea of Japan.

I have seen the *** camps, and looked at shadows burned into the pavement at Hiroshima.

I did most of this before I was twenty, so your twenty five sound a little dissapointing.

Be real clear on this, you can ask me any question you chose, and if I know the answer, I will glady give it to you, freely and without pause...

But never presume to think for one minute you ever had, or ever will have the right to tell me what to do, how to live, or what to think.

And that, my friend, is the major difference between me and you...
I expect to work hard and long, for everything I get.
I live loud and livley, love fully and completly, and plan to die old, but free, owing nothing to no one....

Ed

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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:34 AM
That all depends on weather your silly enough to **** off a dragon...
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

White knights protect the kingdom from being set in flames.

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Posted by PNWRMNM on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:36 AM
Ed,

Well said. You paid more attention to the Canadian claptrap than I did. I like Canada, and most Canadians but can not understand how they can stand so much Government. We have far too much, and they have more.

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Posted by dharmon on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:47 AM
Very well put Ed..

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 8:38 AM
Back to the original topic, IMHO the whole idea makes no sense at all. U.P. isn't a slumlord like the Penn Central was. They haven't been close to bankruptcy even during the bleakest years. Being financially strong and large means they can much more easily afford the capital expenditures than an in-debt spun-off startup could. If history is any guide, they will turn the former S.P into a first class railroad, but it will take some time.

Consider the BNSF transcon article in Trains. There's really not that much to double track, but it won't happen overnight and will take bushels of money to do it. BNSF CEO Rose's coments about capital investment vs. return are right on. Large older U.S. companies like the U.P. are largely owned by mutual funds, pension funds, insurance companies. Own an S&P 500 fund? - you own U.P. When someone's 401K starts doing badly, they shift the funds somewhere else so railroads have to show results just like any other corporation.

As far as letting the government do it, do we really want another Conrail??? That mess still isnlt cleaned up. By the time all the Congressional committees study everything, add unrelated pork barrel expenditures to any bill that might pass, and finally get started, the S.P. will be no better than a goat-path much like the Rock Island was after years of political wrangling in the courts, states, shippers, regulators, etc.

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Posted by Junctionfan on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:56 AM
Of course everything has to go through a process-I am not disputing that.

You couldn't have established a colony on the moon anyways because the technology was too new to be long-term sustainable and therefore too expensive. As far as civil rights are concerned, was the main objectives was to abolish slavery? Of course it would take time to adapt because people in the south were used to this and were conditioned by their parents that it was exceptable to own slaves and that blacks were not human beings. It amazes me that till this day, some people still believe this.

I don't believe in individual freedoms should take a back seat to the needs of the government. I believe that individual freedoms should take a back seat to the needs of the general population. As far as you saying that you get to tell the government what to do and not the other way around, how is the government supposed to function if they listen to what you want without telling somebody else to that this what is to be done. The government has to direct otherwise there is anarchy. You can't have it both ways.
Let me explain the reasoning of my idealogy by giving you examples.

I believe that education should be funded by the government because knowledge shouldn't be the right of those who can afford it. Education is what keeps society together and prevents people from falling behind. Education is necessary if the people are to be employed because most business require education in order to work for a decent living. Very few people win scholarships because it is very competetive world and so even the grade A students don't all get rewarded. If everybody can get educated than they have the opportunity to earn a decent living and therefore don't need to be on welfare or unemployement if they can find the job they want or can get. Our government doesn't pay for universities because we can't afford it and because we want people to appreciate the importants of learning and makes them focus better. At the same time, we understand that thease things are not cheap so we help lower tuition fees and provide generous loans that don't have to be payed back until you get a job.

Healthcare should be public as well. It is our human right to be free from harm as our societies believe this. If we get sick we shouldn't worry about how much it is going to cost us. Why should low income people or people who barely scape by, have to put a morgage on their house just so they can get life-saving surgery? Is this the kind of society we have progressed to; are we that much more interested in how much more money we save than if that person dies? I hope not.

As far as the railroads are concerned, I already explained that previously using my freelanced railroad as an example.

By the way sir, I am not pointing out the downfalls of the U.S in a negative tone; I am trying to show how the U.S could benifit from other countries' ideas in a positive tone. Is it wrong to share ideas on how to do things? Political parties share different views on what should be done all the time and often get fine non-partisan legislation out of it. Consider the other countries like Canada, another political party. Other than yourself and a few others, I don't think anyone else interprets my suggestions as an attack against the U.S. You maybe your own country but you are a part of the world and I am just as concerned with the world as I am concerned with my own country.

As far as military aid and economic aid are concerned, yes those are nice things you did but remember that alot of other nations do to. Canada spends a tremendous amout of money on foreign aid and troops for peace keeping. We all have to pitch in because we are a member of the United Nations and we both are members of NATO. I guest you could consider it membership dues.

Again you seem to want to get personal when I don't. You know now I have to defend myself so I will try to be as respectful as possible this time.

I don't have to go to thease countries to get a good idea of what kind of bad things happen there. I see just fine enough from watching the news and from other media outlets as well. I have seen what Amnesty International had reported on. I have a really good imagination after all I am a composer, so I get a fairly good picture on what goes on. My grandparents and their families lived in Scotland during the war so they know what it was like to get bombed and bombed and than bombed some more. They also told me the horrors they saw in Germany and other Nazi occupied countries after the war. I still get nightmares from those stories.

I haven't changed anything yet because I will be 25 on Thursday and you know that. Most people, yourself maybe included, don't take us young folk seriously enough to be givin the chance to do good for society like running for government. Besides I am not ready for this yet. Remember that children can see things more clearly than adults can because of their naivete. As far as being arrogant and pompous, perhaps I am a bit arrogant but I am not pompous. None of my friends think I think of myself as being more important than anyone else because I am not a big fan of vanity and they know that. If my speach is a little elaborate, it is because I come from a family that says what is on their mind and sometimes it sounds like preaching but we don't usually offend anybody by it. You however do not know me enough to attack me for not doing enough with my life. My life is not as simple as you think-perhaps I shall share you what kind of demons I have struggled with for so far.

My familly was well off until my looser father lost our money gambling and started using drugs. We had to sell the house and live with my grandparents while my mother went through the process of divorce. I can remember even being that young, hearing my father hitting my mother and hearing her cry. That there messes with your mind as I loved my father then and my mother and didn't nor couldn't have done anything about it. After the divorce, my mother said as long as he was clean, he could come and visit but he never came-the dissappointments were very bad but I didn't let my mother see it because I figured that she had enough problems without having to deal with mine. When we moved to a different town, I went to a school in an area that was mired with organized crime or low class hoodlums. I didn't notice it too much thankfully. My grade 2 teacher failed me along with the rest of the males because she didn't like the males and was quite transparent about it. I had to repeat the grade and soon became very bitter about it-I remember it like it was yesterday. After awhile I learned of mortality and some of my friends died or were in the hospital with terrible diseases that couldn't be cured. This is when I dropped the interest in reading anything but non-fiction books in order to try to figure away to fix things. We eventually moved again and we moved into an elitist area where the kids were all the same-money this and money that. My mother worked hard at a cafeteria in a university so because my mother wasn't a lawyer, doctor or owned her own business, they teased me mercilessly. They also found it funny that I had no father-I was embarrased of him so I said he died in a car accident. School after school it was the same thing. I quickly began to resent thease material bastards and kept to myself. My grades were not good because I couldn't concentrate because of the various problems I was trying to cope with. I lived at my mother's boyfriend's house for sometime. He along with my sister called me fat even when I wasn't and tormented me in other ways. Eventually my mother broke up with him and we lived back at my grandparents who at this time lived in an apartment. I was in grade 5 at this time. All that kept me from going insain was that I would day dream alot even in class and stay in fantasy-land as it was a nicer place than the real world. I than moved to an even more elitist area for grade 6. Thease people were positively rediculous. They had to have designer clothing and had to have this and that and the next thing and if you didn't do this to their likeing than you got treated like pond scum. Needless to say I got on famously. Even then I didn't show my developing anger and frustration but I did finally develop an eating disorder. One day after one of the report cards came in, my grades were doing so bad mostly because of my safe place (fantasy land) that my mother told me that unless I woke up and stick with the real world, that I wouldn't get anywhere with life. So I woke up to find hell. People my age were smoking, dying, having sex, drinking, doing this and that and I honestly started to panic as I felt like I woke up in a strange place. I muttled through Grade 7 and 8 getting into fights occasionally from taking to much abuse so I knocked them out only to get in trouble for defending my sanity. At high school the atmosphere was choking and I began not only to get fat but depressed. The classes were big and the teachers seemed to care even less about your needs. This is when I got really heavy into my music. I had no choices and fantasy-land was no longer a viable solution so I played the piano like I was a chronic smoker smoking cigarettes. I did poorly in high school but managed to survive thanks to summer school because although I stoped day-dreaming, I traded one fantasy-land for another. I just didn't seem to fit in. I decided that the students in the school were worthless jerks who were too immature to engage in anything that required deep thought so I hung around with the teachers and principals. People made fun of me but at least I found somebody I could related to as they seemed smart and they had the degrees so they seem like they would be more interested in world issues, politics and other scholarly things and not things like who broke up with whom and who is going to the party. After awhile though something snaped. I had fallen into a severe depression. I was not doing anything and I felt suicidal at times. For several years I struggled and even when to a therapist who said that I suffered from severe depression. No duh....I though I was going through menopause-I though he was kind of dopey and stopped seeing him which only prolonged the illness. After a longer than normal struggle, I got my highschool diploma and so after, I decided to not be so eager to get into University as I didn't want to have to pay alot of money just so I could fail. I wasn't too sure I got over the depression so figured it would be better to wait. I did a few jobs here and there so I could reintroduce myself into society but went slow as not to rush myself. The best work I did was at the office surplus furniture store as I began to realize that people are not all bad and that even though my feet hurt and my joints hurt from not being active enough during the depression, I felt great because I accomplished something and got a decent pay for it too. Too bad it was temperary; I liked working there but the owner couldn't keep me on even part times because of his low profit margin. I decided that I was ready to do something with my life but couldn't figure out what I should do. I couldn't be just a composer because few people ever make it on just that. Even the greats fell back on something so I decided I would too. I couldn't get into university right away because my depression screwed up my grades so I decided I would have to go to community collage. I decided that I would become a customs officer because I wanted to protect people from being victimized futher by terrorists.

Through out my life till recently however short as it is, I realized that other people must go through the same thing I have and in alot of cases worse....much worse. That is why I have gotten into politics and plan to run at some point when I am ready because I don't want to know that decent people have to go through thease things and so I want to help out; even giving ideas to people in different countries.

You seemed to live a well rounded lifestyle and got many opportunities that I didn't get. You are luckier than me but I am not dissappointed anymore. However I do take exception to "survival of the fittest" attitude as there are other quotes you have to remember like "united we stand divivided we fall" and "divide and conquer". But by now you know why. I am not trying to be pompous or arrogant; I am only trying to say that some things should be changed because somethings the way they are now, are hurting alot of people that don't desearve it.

Andrew

P.S my apologies for the amount of reading.
Andrew
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 11:44 AM
Not to stay OT too long, but please explain something.

You say you're 25, but you've already been going through menopause?

I don't understand.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:41 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Not to stay OT too long, but please explain something.

You say you're 25, but you've already been going through menopause?

I don't understand.


Again, bad time for a joke- It's the whole timing thing.

I can't pick out what we are debating- or are we sharing all of our stories-

Andrew, you are older then me, You are wiser then Me, your are more intelligent then me, And i can see myself in you-

I myself am an NDP aswell- No doubt about it.
My english is terrible- No doubt About it-

As for life Stories, I;'ve been hit by a train, fallen off a train-

I was almosy Attacked by an Alligator while I was young, after i fell of my bike over a bridge and went straight into a swamp-

I've been so Drunk I sang "if I had a million dollars" with my parents at Kareoke night

And i've preeched at church-

I burn Cd's And Download music-

I too have seen a Florida sunset, and it was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen- puts our sunsets to shame-

Have I ever left North America? No- But I will one day- I'll leave and hit hhike across europe- Stay in the swiss Motels, meet people over there I can only dream about now-

Dreams, Without a deadline, is strictly that- a dream.

WE live North to the United States, and are mostly surrounded by water - 3/4 border crossings are water.

Not much to fear there- except Rampant Salt water.

An i'm not going to Lie to you- I don't agree With every move the United states makes either, I sure will admit that; that ebing Said, I sure as hell don't agree with many of the moves Canada/Quebec makes either.

I sure as hell wrote a lot of letters when the Quebec Gov't paid for some 15 year old girl to have her boobs done- I was pissed then, and still am- Thats my tax dollars.

WE should be proud of Canada, we are among the only country that produces, refines, watever word it is, more oil a day, then we use a day- tyhats somehting to be proud of.

We also hold Most of the world's fresh Water- thats somehting to be proud of.

The point is, we Live North of the United States- and i can't see a for sale sign poping up any time soon- so Unless its somehting you have a big problem with there really is no point in complaining about everything they do- not saying you did.

On the other hand, I can't stand censorship, and they seem to be heavily into that, and that drives me up the wall-

But I can't stand Paul martin- he's canadian, and an Idiot.

My point is this, neither of us countries will enevr be prefect in each others eyes- I travel to the US very often, and sometimes I don't like what I see- I go into montreal on a reguklar basis, And I don't like what I see sometimes-

Soemone above said how can we stand so much Gov't?

In a liberal society, you don't notice it, because much more stuff flies-

Like marjuana? however you want to spell it- that'll be legal soon- taxed, but legal.

Like alcohol? the Rates in beer keep going up, theres one thats 10% Alc/Vol now.


Homosexual/gay? Not really sure anyone in Canada ever cared-

You can do a lot of stuff, and watch the police just drive right by, that even in the US you wouldn't be able to get away with-

Mind you, how many permits dio you need up here to hold and carry a gun with you? Eight or nine?

How much is it if you race through a RR crossing in Quebec while the lights are on? 1500-2000 dollars and 11 points, for your first time-

WE both have our own faults- No point in pointing them out-

may Dad always said,m unless your Slate is perfectly clean, your best to leave his alone.

And No- I can't spell
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:06 PM
For Junctionfan and others who espouse government ownership:

One only has to look at CN before and after the government sell off. Before it was a bloated company with the poorest operating ratio of all the class 1s. After the sell off CN has the best operating ratio. Now, would soneone explain to me how government ownership is better?
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: St.Catharines, Ontario
  • 3,770 posts
Posted by Junctionfan on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:38 PM
That is because of the stupid federal liberals under Trudeau in particular. CN should have been privatized at least 30 years ago because it was already doing well enough than it was before 1911. Still CN should be monitored because alot of what CN does now is a little familiar with what happened to GTW and the Canadian Northern which led to the need for public ownership in the first place.
Andrew
  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: roundhouse
  • 2,747 posts
Posted by Randy Stahl on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

This might clear up some of the confusion,
then again, maybe not,
But here goes...

Our founding father were of the opinion that the less government interfers with the lives of the citizens, the better.

In fact, the original concept was to establish a formal standing Army to defend the new nation, administer the collective executive functions of the seperate states, and establish a federal government to establish limited federal policy to govern those states on a limited basis.

Jefferson, one of the framers of our constitution, wanted to base almost all the legal precepts on a agricultural based soceity, Franklin leaned more towards a industrial based, business orinented idea....
The compromise is what you know as the current constitution, which, by the way, was designed from the begining to be a changable document.
Jefferson wanted to include in it the legal requirement that it be scrapped every 10 years or so, so that each generation would have to start over and write a new one, the idea being that as times changed, the laws should follow suit, with each generation being able to write their own laws for their own times...

Instead, the ability to write admendents, with the necessity of the general populace to vote on, and approve said admendents, was included instead.

So, yes, if the general populace decided on a radical change in policy, then it could happen, but...

Such a change would have to, for lack of a better description, be run through the legal mill, be presented to our congress, pass muster in front of our Supreme Court, so forth and so on.

Andrew, you mentioned the Applo project as a radical change, when in fact, it was no such thing.
Going to the moon took almost ten years to accomplish,and once there, we quit after only a few visits.
Why?
Because we discovered there was no financial benefit to establish a coloney there.
Instead, it was the natural progression of our quest for military supremacy, pitched to the American public by one of our most effective Presidents, JFK.

You also called the civil rights movement a radical change, forgetting that its roots, the American Civil War, was fought almost a century before, with no clear results in the treatment of blacks beyond the establishment of laws that were rarely followed.

Almost every civilization has, at some point, established such laws, and almost every one promptly ignored them.

While I applaude you for supporting, and believing so much in your form of goverment, and it's culture and soceity's value system, I wi***o caution you on passing judgement on the American system, until you become a citizen here, and participate in it.

This is one of the few nations on earth were the individule isn't subordinate to the state, and where individule freedoms don't take a back seat to the needs of the government.
Our nation was founded, in part, on the concept that the right of the citizens come first, before the needs of the government, and that the government was, and still is, a instrument of the citizens will and wishes.

Here, outside military and national emergencies, our goverment can not "pass laws" or alter exsisting laws without the consent of the people.

Also note that almost every single nation on this planet has, at some point in time, borrowed huge amounts of money from our lending institutions and our goverment.
Almost every nation too, has requested of us some form of aid, be it famine relief, military help, or some form of economic help.

Canada itself has dipped into the well of American generosity on occasion, as have most South American nations.
We routinely provide you with economic aid, in some form or fashion.
Trade agreements, the forgiving of debts in exchange for goods or services, the lowering of interest rates to facilitate or ease in the repayment of said debts is common, but not often mentioned in debates.
During WWII, America was the arsenal of the free world, providing weapons, men and material to the Allies in quanities that stagger the imagination, and almost all of it was nevre paid for by those who received it.

I noticed the rest of the world never seems to mind knocking us, and never seems to tire of pointing out what they see as our short comings, but I also note then don't seem to mind eating the wheat we grow, or borrowing our money.
They quickly call on our military might when they get in trouble, yet as soon as we take care of their problem and leave, they dont hesitate to begin calling us imperialist war mongers, or worse.

Frankly, Andrew, your views are very limited by your experiences...not that being young is somehow wrong, but being arrogant and highly opiniated is.

When your view of a hards days work is moving office funiture, and almost having something heavy fall on you is your concept of dangerous, well...

I have lived, briefly, in your country, and found the people there to be the most excellent hosts one could ask for...

But I have also lived in the Soivet Union, Japan, England, Germany, and India, where I learned the true meaning of the concept of compasion, and the horrifying,and destructive power racisim, and the caste system, can have on the human sprit.

I have seen people beaten with bamboo slats, because they allowed their shadow to fall on a person of a higher caste.
I watched a old man being being paid for cleaning out a toilet, with a cup of water from that same toilet, because the owner of the home felt it beneath him to allow this person to drink from the same facuet as he did.

I have seen children in the Sudan, attempting to eat raw grain, because thats all they had.
I have brought three lives into this world,
and taken one mans life away.
And I have been lucky enought to have saved a life also, so I might just be square with God on that one, maybe.

But before you continue to tell me whats so wrong with my country, you might want to tell us what, exactly, you have done to make this world a better place for us all, besides learning how to compose music for the piano.

What did you change in Canada to make it a better place to live?

Which injustice did you redress, and what do you plan to do about all the other un- fair, wrong, and imoral things that happen every day in this world?

I dont consider Americans superior to the rest of the world, nor do I feel I am better than most, neither by birth or caste, color or religion.

But I did find most of your statements on your life experience to be rather pompous and arrogant, and even though they managed to give me a reason to chuckle, they also gave me a reason to pity you, too.

Your secluded life has limited your view of the world, and your lack of experience left you navie.

You called me rude and cheeky, and a barbarian...true through out,,,but then, I have been called a lot worse things, by a lot better people...

You missed almost every thing myself, Gabe, Mark and Limitedclear and others have tried to show you...

That here, in America, there is no guarantee you can or will succeed, no promise of a lifetime of support...but there is the guarantee that the goverment cant force you to fail, it cant decide what you have to be, or limit how far you go, or how much you make, where you have to live, what language you have to speak..

There aren't too many other countries where I could write "The President (George Bush) Sucks" on a public forum, and not have the police knocking on my door later that night.

While I am glad you like living in a soceity where your needs are met, cradle to grave, I am also glad that you, not me, pays so much in taxes to support that system, and live under the limits such a system imposes.

As for me, I will take the barbaric,, backwards, uncouth and impratical ole USA over everyhwere else I have lived.

Because here, I get to tell my goverment what to do, not the other way around.

And, while your claim to fame is having hobknobed with a harpichordest, world reknowned or other wise,

I have had lunch with a Admiral, played golf with a two star General, and taught a Air Force Major to ride a horse.

I have laughingly gone surfing in a hurrican, stood in my front yard and screamed at a tornado, and whispered at a African sunset that defies description.

I have held a old man as he died, and cradled my newborn daughter as she drew her first breath.

I have hunted deer in west Texas, and gone fishing in the sea of Japan.

I have seen the *** camps, and looked at shadows burned into the pavement at Hiroshima.

I did most of this before I was twenty, so your twenty five sound a little dissapointing.

Be real clear on this, you can ask me any question you chose, and if I know the answer, I will glady give it to you, freely and without pause...

But never presume to think for one minute you ever had, or ever will have the right to tell me what to do, how to live, or what to think.

And that, my friend, is the major difference between me and you...
I expect to work hard and long, for everything I get.
I live loud and livley, love fully and completly, and plan to die old, but free, owing nothing to no one....

Ed
Lets get a beer !!!!
Randy
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:06 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Oh, and a six-percent profit! That is a long way from Enron.


Six percent is chump change (well put Gabe)!!

This is just too much!!!

I was working on the "New Math" (Canadian??) and came up with the following:

Junctionfan + Trainfinder22 = 0

Works for me...FOFLMAO...

LC
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:13 PM
No society is perfect but both Canada and the USA a pretty close to heaven on earth compaired to some places on this planet. Any good citizen of a democratic country has the right and opportunity to try to make a good country even better. I happen to think that private enterprize is great. But it should always be balanced by social responsibility. In general railroads get high marks in my opinion. The chief culprit (here we go again Mark) is of course the highway lobby which even used the Government to increase its profits in the power company - street railway concent decree. (To those Justice Department Lawyers, somehow it was busting a trust to force local power companies to sell street rialways but OK for GM-Firestone-Texaco to buy them to put on buses, get the point?) But the fact is that the major USA health problem is what happens on the highways, yet here is the biggest and most intelligent bunch of researches looking at ways to get people to spend more time in automobiles INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT WAYS TO MAKE THEM SAFER! Isn't this just taking Adam Smith's "Enlightened" out of "Self Interest"? I think Conrail was a success precisely because the Government put up the money as a loan, which was paid back with interest, and then let railroaders do the job without any real Government interference . The fact that the service is being provided at all today counts as a success. But there is already enough governement oversight of the UP's problems, and the solutions are being implemented in stages, and I think we can foresee a normal situation a year from now or even sooner. If they need help at all it should come from their connections and competitors and not from people who would need loads of familiarization time.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:29 PM
Well said Ed! However, I thought the reason for curtailing the moon program was they finally found out it was not made of green cheeze.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3:16 PM
It's pretty god damn bad that all this UP bashing will ever go away any time soon.
I make my self look realy damn stupid when a worker from the railroad comes over to me and askes why I don't like the UP.I tell them that I realy don't like the UP for reasons unknown,and when they ask me why,I just stand there with no words coming out of my mouth,so in the prosess I just make myself look really dumb.
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 4:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

This might clear up some of the confusion,
then again, maybe not,
But here goes...

Our founding father were of the opinion that the less government interfers with the lives of the citizens, the better.

In fact, the original concept was to establish a formal standing Army to defend the new nation, administer the collective executive functions of the seperate states, and establish a federal government to establish limited federal policy to govern those states on a limited basis.

Jefferson, one of the framers of our constitution, wanted to base almost all the legal precepts on a agricultural based soceity, Franklin leaned more towards a industrial based, business orinented idea....
The compromise is what you know as the current constitution, which, by the way, was designed from the begining to be a changable document.
Jefferson wanted to include in it the legal requirement that it be scrapped every 10 years or so, so that each generation would have to start over and write a new one, the idea being that as times changed, the laws should follow suit, with each generation being able to write their own laws for their own times...

Instead, the ability to write admendents, with the necessity of the general populace to vote on, and approve said admendents, was included instead.

So, yes, if the general populace decided on a radical change in policy, then it could happen, but...

Such a change would have to, for lack of a better description, be run through the legal mill, be presented to our congress, pass muster in front of our Supreme Court, so forth and so on.

Andrew, you mentioned the Applo project as a radical change, when in fact, it was no such thing.
Going to the moon took almost ten years to accomplish,and once there, we quit after only a few visits.
Why?
Because we discovered there was no financial benefit to establish a coloney there.
Instead, it was the natural progression of our quest for military supremacy, pitched to the American public by one of our most effective Presidents, JFK.

You also called the civil rights movement a radical change, forgetting that its roots, the American Civil War, was fought almost a century before, with no clear results in the treatment of blacks beyond the establishment of laws that were rarely followed.

Almost every civilization has, at some point, established such laws, and almost every one promptly ignored them.

While I applaude you for supporting, and believing so much in your form of goverment, and it's culture and soceity's value system, I wi***o caution you on passing judgement on the American system, until you become a citizen here, and participate in it.

This is one of the few nations on earth were the individule isn't subordinate to the state, and where individule freedoms don't take a back seat to the needs of the government.
Our nation was founded, in part, on the concept that the right of the citizens come first, before the needs of the government, and that the government was, and still is, a instrument of the citizens will and wishes.

Here, outside military and national emergencies, our goverment can not "pass laws" or alter exsisting laws without the consent of the people.

Also note that almost every single nation on this planet has, at some point in time, borrowed huge amounts of money from our lending institutions and our goverment.
Almost every nation too, has requested of us some form of aid, be it famine relief, military help, or some form of economic help.

Canada itself has dipped into the well of American generosity on occasion, as have most South American nations.
We routinely provide you with economic aid, in some form or fashion.
Trade agreements, the forgiving of debts in exchange for goods or services, the lowering of interest rates to facilitate or ease in the repayment of said debts is common, but not often mentioned in debates.
During WWII, America was the arsenal of the free world, providing weapons, men and material to the Allies in quanities that stagger the imagination, and almost all of it was nevre paid for by those who received it.

I noticed the rest of the world never seems to mind knocking us, and never seems to tire of pointing out what they see as our short comings, but I also note then don't seem to mind eating the wheat we grow, or borrowing our money.
They quickly call on our military might when they get in trouble, yet as soon as we take care of their problem and leave, they dont hesitate to begin calling us imperialist war mongers, or worse.

Frankly, Andrew, your views are very limited by your experiences...not that being young is somehow wrong, but being arrogant and highly opiniated is.

When your view of a hards days work is moving office funiture, and almost having something heavy fall on you is your concept of dangerous, well...

I have lived, briefly, in your country, and found the people there to be the most excellent hosts one could ask for...

But I have also lived in the Soivet Union, Japan, England, Germany, and India, where I learned the true meaning of the concept of compasion, and the horrifying,and destructive power racisim, and the caste system, can have on the human sprit.

I have seen people beaten with bamboo slats, because they allowed their shadow to fall on a person of a higher caste.
I watched a old man being being paid for cleaning out a toilet, with a cup of water from that same toilet, because the owner of the home felt it beneath him to allow this person to drink from the same facuet as he did.

I have seen children in the Sudan, attempting to eat raw grain, because thats all they had.
I have brought three lives into this world,
and taken one mans life away.
And I have been lucky enought to have saved a life also, so I might just be square with God on that one, maybe.

But before you continue to tell me whats so wrong with my country, you might want to tell us what, exactly, you have done to make this world a better place for us all, besides learning how to compose music for the piano.

What did you change in Canada to make it a better place to live?

Which injustice did you redress, and what do you plan to do about all the other un- fair, wrong, and imoral things that happen every day in this world?

I dont consider Americans superior to the rest of the world, nor do I feel I am better than most, neither by birth or caste, color or religion.

But I did find most of your statements on your life experience to be rather pompous and arrogant, and even though they managed to give me a reason to chuckle, they also gave me a reason to pity you, too.

Your secluded life has limited your view of the world, and your lack of experience left you naive.

You called me rude and cheeky, and a barbarian...true through out,,,but then, I have been called a lot worse things, by a lot better people...

You missed almost every thing myself, Gabe, Mark and Limitedclear and others have tried to show you...

That here, in America, there is no guarantee you can or will succeed, no promise of a lifetime of support...but there is the guarantee that the goverment cant force you to fail, it cant decide what you have to be, or limit how far you go, or how much you make, where you have to live, what language you have to speak..

There aren't too many other countries where I could write "The President (George Bush) Sucks" on a public forum, and not have the police knocking on my door later that night.

While I am glad you like living in a soceity where your needs are met, cradle to grave, I am also glad that you, not me, pays so much in taxes to support that system, and live under the limits such a system imposes.

As for me, I will take the barbaric, backwards, uncouth and impratical ole USA over everyhwere else I have lived.

Because here, I get to tell my goverment what to do, not the other way around.

And, while your claim to fame is having hobknobed with a harpichordest, world reknowned or other wise,

I have had lunch with a Admiral, played golf with a two star General, and taught a Air Force Major to ride a horse.

I have laughingly gone surfing in a hurrican, stood in my front yard and screamed at a tornado, and whispered at a African sunset that defies description.

I have held a old man as he died, and cradled my newborn daughter as she drew her first breath.

I have hunted deer in west Texas, and gone fishing in the sea of Japan.

I have seen the *** camps, and looked at shadows burned into the pavement at Hiroshima.

I did most of this before I was twenty, so your twenty five sound a little disappointing.

Be real clear on this, you can ask me any question you chose, and if I know the answer, I will glady give it to you, freely and without pause...

But never presume to think for one minute you ever had, or ever will have the right to tell me what to do, how to live, or what to think.

And that, my friend, is the major difference between me and you...
I expect to work hard and long, for everything I get.
I live loud and liveley, love fully and completely, and plan to die old, but free, owing nothing to no one....

Ed


Well said, Ed.

LC
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 5:23 PM
Ed-

You must be really old to have done all that stuff...

You certainly have Andrew's number...

LC
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 5:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

White knights protect the kingdom from being set in flames.


In certain areas of the U.S. this could be considered highly inflammatory...

A bit more education about the Civil Rights Movement...

LC
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 5:54 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

It's pretty god damn bad that all this UP bashing will ever go away any time soon.
I make my self look realy damn stupid when a worker from the railroad comes over to me and askes why I don't like the UP.I tell them that I realy don't like the UP for reasons unknown,and when they ask me why,I just stand there with no words coming out of my mouth,so in the prosess I just make myself look really dumb.


Don't worry, this crowd will get back to CN soon enough and leave UP alone...LOL

LC
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,820 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:03 PM
Aw c'mon...... I want to see Transport Canada would do in trying to dictate terms to the Yellow Peril! just once......[(-D][(-D][(-D]
Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:32 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Aw c'mon...... I want to see Transport Canada would do in trying to dictate terms to the Yellow Peril! just once......[(-D][(-D][(-D]


LOL! Thanks MC, it's been one of those days where even the fillings in your teeth get tired...

A good laugh is therapy...

LC
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • 587 posts
Posted by garr on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:49 PM
Junctionfan,

One simple question. What form of government does the US have?

Jay

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