Why The Goverment should repo Union Pacific!

[Anonymous]

I dont think they ever paid back the money they stole[}:)][:(!]
Here is a document that proves it[}:)]
http://www.uprr.org/Museum/Reports/pictures/capture_00060.html

[locomutt]

[#ditto] to Mark,I believe that one is full of hot air![:)]

As a matter of fact,everbody on this thread should read a
little history once in a while. Try it;you'll like it[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfinder22

I dont think they ever paid back the money they stole[}:)][:(!]
Here is a document that proves it[}:)]
http://www.uprr.org/Museum/Reports/pictures/capture_00060.html

No, Thomas Durant spent quite a few of the dollars in his attempt to buy the Adirondacks. He died down in North Creek, where a scenic railroad today runs over tracks he built into the wilderness and where, one assumes visitors might spit on his grave.

The UP wasn't directly involved in the scandal. The Credit Mobilier was the separate company Durant and his fellow conspirators set up to do the actual construction, for which they billed the UP for far more than the actual costs, pocketing the difference. Why didn't the government repo the RR then? Well, for one thing, it was nearly bankrupt as a result of the overcharges by the Credit Mobilier, for another, influential members of Congress were implicated, including the Republican Speaker of the House, future President James Garfield and a host of others. They all had been given stock or bought it at sweetheart rates. The resulting investigation if I recall correctly, led to the removal of only one member from Congress with the rest getting away with selling their votes involving expenditures.

It is probably a little late in the game to consider calling in the repo man but if you do, follow the money and see if we can get some land back from his heirs.

Wayne

[David3]

Repo UP. I'm sick of their boring yellow power anyway [|)]. Dave [:D]

[Anonymous]

How about we just split it back into UP and SP and D&RGW [:)]?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfinder22

I dont think they ever paid back the money they stole[}:)][:(!]
Here is a document that proves it[}:)]
http://www.uprr.org/Museum/Reports/pictures/capture_00060.html

The document itself proves nothing. It is merely a speech and never shows that the Bill in question ever passed or was enacted into law.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Split UP apart! You're serious?

SP could not possibly have lasted on its own in a deregulated environment. It was falling off a financial cliff when UP bought it. But if you insist, be our guest. Tell us which one you prefer: compulsory socialization of the economy and infrastructure, or $1-2 billion a year in taxpayer subsidies to the new SP. Who knows, we might all be wealthier and happier that way, and our current system may be doomed in that not-too-distant future, but you'll have to demonstrate that with a formal proof, plus demonstrate your method of convincing the voter to make a radical jump into the unknown.

Otherwise the whole discussion is idle.

Yes, split them all up!! At least to the paradigm of the early 1990's with 4 or 5 systems out West (U.S.) and 3 or 4 in the East. We didn't need to create such monsters just to give RR's the ability to cover their cost of capital (which by the way is still pathetic, maybe we should just allow one big Class I).

There are better ways of helping railroads have better ROR's than these mega mergers. Exempt RR right of ways from property taxation, allow faster depreciation of tracks (with the heavier cars they're probably deteriorating at a faster rate today anyway), add a few cents to the federal gas tax to aid in infrastructure maintenance and expansion.......

Why make cOmPEtitioN suffer unnecessarily when there are more proACtive CrEative wayS to improve the railroadS" bottom line?[;)]

[Anonymous]

Well let's put it this way,the way I look at it is,The UP "is in no way" better shape than the CSXT. At least the UP "is" trying to recooperate to be a strong Railroad again! No offence!

[Junctionfan]

I don't know how you do things in the U.S but in Canada public education work rather well. So does public health and some medicare. Ontario Northland isn't too bad and most of the hydro companies other than Ontario Hydro, are not bad either. There is alot of things over in Canada that run good or good enough by the government. In Ontario, liquor is distributed by the LCBO-Liquor Control Board of Ontario-so youths can't get easy access to alchol. We pay alot of taxes but it is worth it. You may pay alot of taxes in your life but heart surgury, children's education from Kindergarden to Grade 12, certain medicines are free. If it works for Canada who has a smaller population and less GDP than the U.S, why wouldn't work for a more wealthy country like the U.S?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Split UP apart! You're serious?

SP could not possibly have lasted on its own in a deregulated environment. It was falling off a financial cliff when UP bought it. But if you insist, be our guest. Tell us which one you prefer: compulsory socialization of the economy and infrastructure, or $1-2 billion a year in taxpayer subsidies to the new SP. Who knows, we might all be wealthier and happier that way, and our current system may be doomed in that not-too-distant future, but you'll have to demonstrate that with a formal proof, plus demonstrate your method of convincing the voter to make a radical jump into the unknown.

Otherwise the whole discussion is idle.

Hey Mark have some fun!! Your to serious all the time. I understand that it is your life work, but we do like to have some fun here!![:)]

[cpbloom]

Now I know why I railfan alone.

[Anonymous]

"But if you insist, be our guest. Tell us which one you prefer: compulsory socialization of the economy and infrastructure, or $1-2 billion a year in taxpayer subsidies to the new SP"
Trainfinder-Well why is it everytime that the public wants to control things directly that are essetiol to our well being directly like health care and transportation someone always cries "SOCIALIASM"! COMUNNISIM! (BAD SPELLING!). Is the Ghost of Mcarthy Still around? To leave our transcontinentel railroads in the hands of a board of directors
(The Former Governer Of Montana is on the UP Board) who is basicaly self appointing
to squeeze out 6% of Profit a year no matter what the cost is to our nations productivity
is to spit on our Founding fathers graves..

[gabe]

Junctionfan,

As someone who doesn't have the time to edit my posts as well as I would otherwise like, I really should be more magnanimous, but I can't resist, it is too priceless:

Your contention: "In Canada public education work rather well." I think this sentence pretty much sums up my response to your argument. Sorry couldn't resist.

In all seriousness though, assuming for the sake of argument that government ownership in Canada works as well as private ownership in the United States, it is not that simple. As Mark has said on more than one occassion, the way a country's business opperates is a direct reflection on the county's value system.

Canada has a different (I am not asserting a better or worse, just different) history and coresponding value system than that of the United States. Even if you could convince the U.S. electorate that a Canadian-style system would work as well or better than our system--an unlikely scenario in itself, which would be rebuked with "there is a reason they privatized CN"--many in the United States consider government ownership an inherent evil.

The United States' history and culture is one of breaking away from big government and distrusting big government/government ownership and involvement; Canada stood by the Crown, Americans were willing to die to get away from it.

This is terribly complicated, has its origins well before the founding of the United States, and I wish I had more time to make my case. I am not contending that "big government" is good or bad, I am just contending that the culture within the United States would see such government ownership as an inherent and corrupting evil and it would never fly.

Gabe

[gabe]

Trainfinder:

See my response to Junctionfan. Not to be confused with contending socialism is better than capitalism, etc, but it simply is not commensurate with our value system and CERTAINLY is not commensurate with the type of government envisioned by our founding fathers. I think you have it backwards with regard to who would be doing the spitting.

Once again though, I am not asserting one is better than the other, just why your answer is not commensurate with our history and culture.

Gabe

[gabe]

Oh, and a six-percent profit! That is a long way from Enron.

[Anonymous]

Gee Big Goverment or Big Corperations...What a Choice!
The problem here lies with our Fundelmentilist religios history...Either your saved or your going to hell...Either Your clean and sober or your a complete drunk in the gutter,,
Either your a vestal virgin or your a complete wench...Theres no inbetween no Purgatory here. Either your a Lone Cowboy fight out in his or SUV alone against the world or your a Luddite or Shaker in some commune somewere in Idaho..I will stick with my roman catholic freinds who belive in moderation thank you very much.

[SALfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfinder22

Gee Big Goverment or Big Corperations...What a Choice!
The problem here lies with our Fundelmentilist religios history...Either your saved or your going to hell...Either Your clean and sober or your a complete drunk in the gutter,,
Either your a vestal virgin or your a complete wench...Theres no inbetween no Purgatory here. Either your a Lone Cowboy fight out in his or SUV alone against the world or your a Luddite or Shaker in some commune somewere in Idaho..I will stick with my roman catholic freinds who belive in moderation thank you very much.

I don't trust big corporations either, but at least the necessity to make a profit to survive limits the amount of BS that goes on in a corporation. Trust me, there is no such discipline in government, until services get so bad there is a huge outcry to fix the situation. Even then, the idiot politicians and the special interests (i.e., big corporations)do their best to see that their own sacred cows aren't harmed.

Yes, there are gray areas in life, but at some point one's conduct crosses the line into being wrong. If everyone would cease putting up with people doing wrong, rather than excusing outrageous behavior, the world will be a better place.

[Junctionfan]

Are value systems are basically the same except we stayed British abit longer so it has rubbed off on our system abit more. We both share the need for freedom, we vote, we hold religion high and we can be just as capitalist as the U.S.

My remarks were mostly about M.W Hemphill's remarks about public education. You think CN is the only crap job that the government has done-hell no. Air Canada, Ontario Hydro to name a few.

More and more people seem to be more interested in Canadian style healthcare like John Kerry and formal General Wesley Clark. Before it was just Ralph Nader that was big on that but also if you have watched the movie John Q, you know that the demand for public healthcare is there. I am not convinced either that all the Republicans don't think that they should continue the two-tier healthcare. Oh by the way, please excuse my spelling mistakes. Sometimes my train of thought run too quick for me and don't have time to correct either spelling or grammar mistakes before another train of thought come along. My head itself is a busy junction at times.

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Read more history. This is one document of thousands. Have you considered why no historian agrees with the conclusion you've reached? (Note: it's not because they're paid off.)

(1) Amen

(2) Even college history prof.s, jaded as they are, would not buy the argument....

Mudchickens/ surveyors (part measurement scientist, part technician, part historian) learn to gather evidence and study the results carefully. Hanging your hat on one assertion is not something we do - neither should you.[}:)][}:)][}:)]

[Anonymous]

Okay help me here... How did the Candians get a hold of CN and GT in there First place? Plus are we forgeting that the US feds ran Conrail for 16 years?

[gabe]

Trainfinder,

I think your two examples make my point (which is ONLY that there are two different value systems in the United States and Canada with regard to government control of enterprise).

1). The government take over of Conrail was viewed as a necessary evil by the United States. I don't think this point can be seriously challenged. Despite the incredible problems that were present when PennCentral folded, efforts were almost instantly put forth to privatize Conrail--plans that were ultimately successful (depending upon your view of success). In lawschool, I had an opportunity to view and write a law journal article about about a lot of the post-Conrail-creation legislative history. It is very interesting just how eager the government was to privitize Conrail. As an aside, the writings surrounding Elizabeth Dole's (Bob Dole's wife) involvement in this process are very interesting--if you are into that sort of thing.

2) I cannot not speak nearly as authoritatively about the privatization of CN, but one gets the feeling that the privitization of CN is viewed by many Canadians as a necessary evil. Although I am not privy to Canadian legislative history, the anecdotal evidence that I have witnessed on here alone would seem to support this position.

My contention is that the starting point with regard to the presumption of propriety was the polar opposite in Canada and the United States.

To further my point with the above-stated health care reference: those opposed to government-run health care have as one of their biggest arguments "yeah, but its the GOVERNMENT!" This is certainly the undercurrent that keeps health care from being privatized. Although, the arguments both for and against this are infinitely more complex on both sides.

JOdom:

I don't really want to start an argument about whether government involvement is good or bad, but I have to admit, I am very empathetic to your argument.

Viewing some of the inefficiencies that I have to put up with everyday in relation to the State, what I would give for the State to have the accountability that major corporations have. All too often the State's solution to inefficiency is not to correct the inefficiency but to raise taxes.

Gabe

[Junctionfan]

GT was bought by the Canadian government because of economic crisis and stiff competition from the CPR under VanHorne. It didn't help that Charles Melville Hays who was the general manager of GT, made some unfavourable decisions. The GTW had difficult financial problems which forced it into recievership in 1919. Eventually the government decided that since they didn't want CPR to have a rail monopoly, they took over and along a bunch of other Canadian railroads were already the CNR. GTW was a recent aquisition when David Hanna, a former G.M of the Canadian Northern resigned. CNR didn't start to get good until Sir Henry Thornton ran things beginning 1922.

[Anonymous]

UP was not exactly a pull up by its own bootstrap have a bake sale to raise money for tracks -Hoartio Alger -enterprise. It recived Millions of acres of free land that the US goverment stole from the Native Americans. The problem here is that the goverment needed to have a railroad and isulate itself from Liability at the Same time.
"Authoritys" were not invented till the 1930s with the Tennasee Valley Authority" and Robert B Moses (1939-1960s). Canada has what is Called a "Crown Corperation". Although they will be at pain to Admit it
All INC. or Corperations have to ask permission from the Goverment to Exist.
On rare ocasions the goverment can step in and ask that there assets be Liquidated or Cease To exist. Arther Anderson was one such Example.

[gabe]

Trainfinder,

In America, a corporation is legally "a person." As a person, it cannot be forced to be liquidated with out due process. I don't like corporations, the commission of crimes that have had their statute of limitations run over 100 years ago, or the complaint that it accepted land that the government gave them is not due-process ground for liquidation.

There are, of course, condemnation proceedings that the government may exercise over a corporation, but they are very restricted.

Furthermore, although corporations have to ask "permission" to exist, the circumstances in which such "permission" may be denied is very limited. It is not as though the government may pick and choose who they allow to form a corporation.

Gabe

[Junctionfan]

I think railroads would be better of as co-operatives where the profits belong to the owners and workers not investors. Both management and workers make or break the company and tend to be more dedicated and proud of their accomplishments because they both don't have to worry about greedy investor who know nothing on what it takes to run a sucessful mode of transportation. Unfortunately I can't see how the railroads can change their structure now-I believe it is too late to change now and must adapt to the structure that exists until some kind of positive and meaningful solution can be found. I think things that happened 100 years ago is a little silly as I am sure that California, New Mexico and the other states won't be handed back to Mexico as the Mexican War is over.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Talbanese: But I WAS having fun!

Mark

Oh! Never mind! Sorry!

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

How about we just split it back into UP and SP and D&RGW [:)]?

And WP,MKT, and the MOP.[:)];
Maybe combine MKT, Frisco, and MP into a separate system.

[Anonymous]

When all this backsliding occurs, will the Adirondack Scenic Rairoad have to give the trackrights back to the New York Central? Will the Delaware & Hudson reclaim the Upper Hudson Scenic Railroad and the Bloomingdale Bog Trail where I hike & mountainbike? Just would like to know how all this silliness is going to affect my neighborhood. [:D]
Wayne

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I think railroads would be better of as co-operatives where the profits belong to the owners and workers not investors. Both management and workers make or break the company and tend to be more dedicated and proud of their accomplishments because they both don't have to worry about greedy investor who know nothing on what it takes to run a sucessful mode of transportation. Unfortunately I can't see how the railroads can change their structure now-I believe it is too late to change now and must adapt to the structure that exists until some kind of positive and meaningful solution can be found. I think things that happened 100 years ago is a little silly as I am sure that California, New Mexico and the other states won't be handed back to Mexico as the Mexican War is over.

I thought investors were owners.

[garr]

jeffhergert,

You are exactly right.

But isn't junctionfan's proposal exactly what Delta Air Line is considering in its attempt to avoid bankruptcy. CNW was employee owned and we see where it ended up (no pun intended).

Jay