Why The Goverment should repo Union Pacific!

[Junctionfan]

Investor are owners who don't know the operational detail. I'm talking about CEOs and other high management positions should be owners. If the investors were more concerned about how their investments were being used, maybe the railroad would work better. Unfortunately investors rarely give a damn about how the profit is being made but how much is being made and so they don't understand about needing to spend money here and there. I don't think the investors bother reseaching the companies operation so much as their financial records and even than it is usually done by consulation from the investors stockbroker.

[garr]

Junctionfan,

What you are proposing would allow only the "super-rich" to own large companies. I do not believe the CEO's and upper management of any of the major North American railroads have enough funds collectively to buy out the shares of their companies held by the current investors.

If by some miracle this happened and Bill Gates, Ross Perot, Donald Trump, etc. each owned a railroad, how would it change things? I personally don't think there would be a whole lot of difference from what you see today. Railroading is a mature business and all the individuals named have not really excelled once their companies reached "maturity".

Jay

[Junctionfan]

Yes I know. It is too late but I wonder how well it could have been if it had done it from day 1. There are alot of small business that operate cooperative structure, in theory the bigger the railroad the more work it is that's all.

Isn't Bill Gates a railfan? I don't know of anybody who bought out his investors to be sole owner of the company. Speaking companies that run well with investor who know the business, Vincent K McMahon's WWE Entertainment-high majority of investors are related some how to the business either as wrestlers, corporate executives or familly of them. They seem to do well with their "educated" investors.

[edblysard]

Andrew,
Just how much stock do you own?
And , rude as this is, in what company(ies)?

I own UP, and BNSF, and I do know the operational detail, quite well in fact.
I check up on UP often, and am quite happy with the returns so far....

Major investors also keep track, and do research...not to many folks I know just throw a few million dollars into a company because the like the color of the locomotives...

UP has a plan, and has been following it pretty good...they will be the biggest Class 1 west of the big muddy, its what we pay them to do.

And if you want to repo UP, well, you better be ready to go after every railroad there is, most have, at some point in time, or in some manner, taken "goverment" money, and in some manner, defaulted on the "loan".

As for the value system you hold so dear, well, with a small, contained population, limited immigration into the country, and a smaller goverment, it works...but surprise, if we even though about something like that here(think DHS, AFDC, WIC an TAFIN) just how big do you think the flood of immigrants into America would become?
They already cross over to have their children here, so citizenship is given tothe kids, and then the whole family comes over to live off the public teet....
Trust me, I worked in the welfare fraud recovery division for my states goverment for a long time.
Social medicine and support dosnt work, not in its current form, nor will it work in the form your describe,
because, I, like most Americans, dont like paying for the up keep of those who choose not to help themselves...

It would appear from this thread you, like many others world wide, seem to think that America, and her citizens, have pockets so deep we can solve the worlds, and our own, by paying for just about anything...just throw some money at the problem till it goes away...

Which seems to be what you were griping about in the first place, the goverment threw money, in the form of land grants, at UP, so they would go away and leave them alone...

Your condeming the goverment for cutting a deal with UP, then asking the same goverment to run everything?


Hummmm

Ed

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Excuse me if I've totally misconstrued your arguments, Andrew, but in one breath you're decrying the control of wealth by a few in the case of Hunter Harrison, and in the next you're advocating control of wealth by a few in the case of Donald Trump. Which is it you want?

Thease men operate differently. I know where Donald Trump stands on business style. He is more interested in building; he said that on Larry King Live. I do not know where Hunter Harrison stands.

As far as I want; if you can't figure out what the basics of my arguement is than you have not been reading my statesment all that well. I have made it quite clear that I expect railroads due to the fact that they are a mode of transportation, should be run as such. Although they must operate like a business, they must also except the responsibility that what they do doesn't just effect the company but the countries they operate. They have an obligation to maintain the business. Too many people worked hard on the railroad and many died for the railroad for over a hundred years. The railroad is not just a business it is a culture and the culture is of the nations it operates in. They are the final big railroads and it is up to them to help the countries sustain its economy. The railroads need help and they need some kind of support. The expression "the bigger they are the harder they fall" is true for any business and so needs to monitored carefully because if one of them falls, it will effect so many industries and workers that have anything to do with that railroad, their will be a terrible surge of unemployement and the economy will suffer. I don't know why you all can't see how dangerous it is for such large transportational networks like the class 1s to run the way they like. In the older days railroads were a dime a dozen. If one shut down there was others close by. The railroad is one of the most important solutions to alot of our countries problems with highway conjestion, air pollution, and other things. That is why I am not willing to say that trucks are the alternative because they are not the best answer to the problems of air pollution or highway conjestion. I hope you can see where I am coming from here, I don't know how I can make myself more clear that the railroads must not fall and that the survival of our economies may very well depend on the railroads' decisions.

[edblysard]

While I agee with you very last statement, I find your first one confusing, at best...
Following your argument, JB Hunt, UPS, FedEx, Delta, Southwest, GM, Dodge,
Volvo/White, Ferightliner, and thousand of others shouldnt be allowed to fail, they are all modes of transportation, and all play a major part in our economy...
so the goverment should prop them up, buy out the money hungry investors, then sell them to the richest people in the world, who should buy them and run them?
Which one?

By the way, how do you think they got rich in the first place, just plain hard work?
I would love to have Trumps portfolio....just a little piece...

Ed

Ed

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Andrew,
Just how much stock do you own?
And , rude as this is, in what company(ies)?

I own UP, and BNSF, and I do know the operational detail, quite well in fact.
I check up on UP often, and am quite happy with the returns so far....

Major investors also keep track, and do research...not to many folks I know just throw a few million dollars into a company because the like the color of the locomotives...

UP has a plan, and has been following it pretty good...they will be the biggest Class 1 west of the big muddy, its what we pay them to do.

And if you want to repo UP, well, you better be ready to go after every railroad there is, most have, at some point in time, or in some manner, taken "goverment" money, and in some manner, defaulted on the "loan".

As for the value system you hold so dear, well, with a small, contained population, limited immigration into the country, and a smaller goverment, it works...but surprise, if we even though about something like that here(think DHS, AFDC, WIC an TAFIN) just how big do you think the flood of immigrants into America would become?
They already cross over to have their children here, so citizenship is given tothe kids, and then the whole family comes over to live off the public teet....
Trust me, I worked in the welfare fraud recovery division for my states goverment for a long time.
Social medicine and support dosnt work, not in its current form, nor will it work in the form your describe,
because, I, like most Americans, dont like paying for the up keep of those who choose not to help themselves...

It would appear from this thread you, like many others world wide, seem to think that America, and her citizens, have pockets so deep we can solve the worlds, and our own, by paying for just about anything...just throw some money at the problem till it goes away...

Which seems to be what you were griping about in the first place, the goverment threw money, in the form of land grants, at UP, so they would go away and leave them alone...

Your condeming the goverment for cutting a deal with UP, then asking the same goverment to run everything?


Hummmm

Ed

I don't own any shares at this time as I don't see the need to in order to maintain a comfortable and honest lifestyle where I live. Whether I own stock or has little relevants on me wanting our mass transit systems of freight and passenger movement preserved from those who would exploit it and discard it as if it was as insignificant as a kleenex.

That is good you check up on the railroad's operation. I would hope major investor do so to but do they all. How many really do research and who just do it because their investment brokers said it would be a good idea? What is the percentage of stock owned by the informed major investor versus the percentage of investor not informed? Are they more interested in the company or are they more interested in more shares or more money from them and to hell with the company-ends justifies the means?

As I said, you can't repo UP because that would be like Mexico trying to repo California and New Mexico etc. What I said was that it would have been nice if from the get go (over a hundred years ago), the railroad was owned by just management and the workers and did profit sharing with in the company and not givin to outside investors. Like a cooperative is about-a pool company I think is another word for it.

There are always problems with something that is done by government policy but the answer isn't to do nothing. As far as illegal immigration is concerned, there is nothing you can do really other than keep trying to catch them. In Ontario for example we have a healthcard with photo I.D on it. They did something to the card that makes it almost impossible to commit fraud on. You are not allowed treatment without it.

No one likes paying for the up keep of people who choose not to help themselves. But the majority of the times thease people can't help themselves and I would hope that you wouldn't let them suffer needlessly when you can help them out buying paying a little bit more taxes. If that is all it takes to reduce a child poverty and help reduce people dying because they can't afford the hospital service and the hospitals won't admitt them because they don't have the insurance; than you shouldn't mind doing it because it is the humane thing to do, it is the moral thing to do, it is the Christian thing to do right?

You say that the U.S can not afford to do this. I have evidence that says otherwise.

According to the World Factbook 2001, for GDP per capita at purchasing power parity in terms of who has the richest population on average is Luxembourg at 36, 400. Of course this is a small country in comparison as the second richest was the U.S at 36,200.

According to the World Bank using 2002 statistics, the worlds GDP was 32,252,660,000,000. I am assuming in dollars. Of that the U.S GDP was 10,416,818,000,000 which mean that almost a third of the GDP came from the U.S.

There is no damn way you can convince me that the U.S can't afford a public health system like Canada's. I don't know how the government there is spending money but they most certainly could do what should have. I don't think there are too many first class countries in the world that don't have something like Canada's. Even Great Britain has reversed some of the privatization that Margaret Thatcher did.

As far as who should pay for this well I freely admit that those with the most money should pay their fair share ie people making well over 100, 000 a year. There must be a fair number out there. Let me explain my conclusions from this.

According to Forbes2000, in 2003, the Corporations with the largest profits are U.S owned. In fact the first 4 are U.S owned. Exxon Mobile made 21 billion, Citigroup made 17.9 billion, GE made 15.6 billion and Bank of America made 10.8 billion. Out of that entire list were mostly U.S owned companies that made it in the Forbes list.

[edblysard]

Andrew,

There is a public health care system already, its called Medicare and Medicade...

By the way, in Texas, the law says if you show up at a emergency room with a real or imagined emergency, they have to treat you, regardless if you are insured or not.
You can not, by law, be turned away.

Ever been in a emergency room, after, say 6:00 pm?
Wonder why it seems full of parents with their small kids, most of who dont seem to be injured, but almost all seem to have runny noses or bad colds...minor illnesses?

Because medicare will pay 100% of a emergency room visit.
If you show up during the day, the emergency room admitting officer will refer you to your medicade doctors office, where you pay a whoping $5.00...but after regular business hours, they have to treat you in the emergency room, free...

So, you, as a tax payer, are subsidising the treatment of these kids common colds, you foot the bill for the medicine, pay the doctor, the administrative cost, all of it, and the welfare receiver pays...zero...free health care for any and everything.

Average amount a AFDC Mom, with two kids, in HUD housing, and on medicare, receives in federal subsidies per month, over $3000.00 in benifits....

Sorry, I work for a living, and its 5:44 in the morning, so I have to head out to my job..( I know, dirty word there) to help pay for all of this, but when I get back this afternoon, I will give you a simplefied breakdown of what you, as a tax payer, fork out ....you are a tax payer, gainfully employeed, yes?

Ed

[Junctionfan]

Do you think I am the only one who shares this opinion? Hardly. There are all walks of life that share this opinion. All parties of government share this opinion. Look up on the net or read about a man named Tommy Douglas, who was the founder of our present day health system. Incidentally he was a member of the New Democrate Party in the Federal Parliment. The NDP were not in power and yet his proposal was adopted by the government anyways and has been like this ever since. Majority of Canadian never regretted it today and yesterday.

Is this service just in Texas? Do you still pay medicare and medicade? Is it cheaper, more expensive or like paying taxes? There must be a reason why John Kerry and others are advocating for public health care otherwise he wouldn't be so close to George W Bush in the polls.

Are hospitals before it was underfunded by Mike Harris and Ernie Eves of Ontario was very good for waiting periods. It didn't usually take long for people to get in and most of the time it wasn't colds that were in there. The doctors all know that some times a cough is not a cold. There are other illnesses with the such symptoms and some are serious. Also we are not handed a bill at all. If someones has an illness that requires expensive drugs to keep them alive but they are only a cashier at a store and can't afford them-the government pays for it. If there is any kind of life saving medical or surgical procedures to be done, the government pays for it. When you describe Medicare and Medicade, they sound like insurance. There is nothing more dubious than the insurance business. Let me tell you something that I have found by listening to people who own insurance; they may pull through for you provided you can pay for its upkeep otherwise the insurance company cancels your coverage. That is fine if you own a car forexample and the cancellation is on the car. Your alternative is a bus or a ride from somebody. There unfortunately is alot of people in our countries that are not so comfortable as we are. The U.S and even Canada's poverty rate is climbing and so thease people have to make choices that means they may not eat for a day or so if they pay certain bills. Thease people can not afford medical insurance and so if they have something medical to be done and they can't save up the money for it, what happens to them? By the way $3000 does jack if you have to get an operation that costs over $100,000.

I am not a tax payer because I am a student and they don't make enough money a year to tax as any money I make goes to my collage since it is a government loan which I have to pay back with some interests. I will pay my fair share of taxes when I will be a customs officer. As a concert pianist and composer, I may make it over the $100,000 a year and pay even more taxes. I don't mind this because I know it is for a good cause. Between studing at school and my music and writing my music, I am up all hours of the night often because that is the nature of profession that chose me. I didn't choose to be able to compose music it just happened and decided since it was already there, might as well exploit my gift and see if I can't make a little bit more money too which is not my main goal. I don't care if I am rich only comfortable; I will certainly not go out of my way trying do something for the money alone. Most people if they have the choice, don't just work for the money, they work at the job they do because they enjoy what they are doing.

[Anonymous]

Junctionfan:
If you are a prime example of a Canadian college student, then I think that the citizens of the Dominion of Canada should be absolutely ashamed and appalled that someone such as yourself could possibly have matriculated through grades K through 12 and be accepted to an institution of higher learning without ever learning basic spelling, rudimentary English grammar, nor the fundamentals of logical thought and reasoning! Par for the course, I suppose, for a country governed by the fibbing Liberal eastern-based Grits of Paul Martin and their ilk, while raping the resources and wealth of the productive capitalists of the western provinces to support the equalization payments to the lazy and slovenly socialists of the eastern provinces. It's no wonder that "Western alienation" and the seeds of possible separation are mushrooming throughout the great Canadian west, as evidenced by the majority of posts on www.WesternStandard.ca and www.FreeDominion.ca and many other western Canadian websites!

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Excuse me if I've totally misconstrued your arguments, Andrew, but in one breath you're decrying the control of wealth by a few in the case of Hunter Harrison, and in the next you're advocating control of wealth by a few in the case of Donald Trump. Which is it you want?

Thease men operate differently. I know where Donald Trump stands on business style. He is more interested in building; he said that on Larry King Live. I do not know where Hunter Harrison stands.

As far as I want; if you can't figure out what the basics of my arguement is than you have not been reading my statesment all that well. I have made it quite clear that I expect railroads due to the fact that they are a mode of transportation, should be run as such. Although they must operate like a business, they must also except the responsibility that what they do doesn't just effect the company but the countries they operate. They have an obligation to maintain the business. Too many people worked hard on the railroad and many died for the railroad for over a hundred years. The railroad is not just a business it is a culture and the culture is of the nations it operates in. They are the final big railroads and it is up to them to help the countries sustain its economy. The railroads need help and they need some kind of support. The expression "the bigger they are the harder they fall" is true for any business and so needs to monitored carefully because if one of them falls, it will effect so many industries and workers that have anything to do with that railroad, their will be a terrible surge of unemployement and the economy will suffer. I don't know why you all can't see how dangerous it is for such large transportational networks like the class 1s to run the way they like. In the older days railroads were a dime a dozen. If one shut down there was others close by. The railroad is one of the most important solutions to alot of our countries problems with highway conjestion, air pollution, and other things. That is why I am not willing to say that trucks are the alternative because they are not the best answer to the problems of air pollution or highway conjestion. I hope you can see where I am coming from here, I don't know how I can make myself more clear that the railroads must not fall and that the survival of our economies may very well depend on the railroads' decisions.

After sleeping on it I decided that I wasn't as clear as I should have been so I will remove all diplomatic flowery words and say it as plainly as possible.

Railroads now have gotten to damn big and our countries now depend on the way they exist and how they run things. If the railroad isn't going to do what the country expects them to do which is to service and mainly, than they have no business in owning that company. The railroad has become a vital asset to the countries they are in and if they are going to continue to drop customers and fire people to increase an already large profit, than quite frankly the government should step in and say enough is enough. If they fall apart than the countries economy will suffer and government shouldn't tollerate it. If that means taking control of the company and firing who ever is making the bad decisions that so be it. If the answer is replace Hunter Harrison with Donald Trump; if he can do a better job then so be it. I don't believe in Crown corporations unless that industry is so dependant on by the people and has a near monopoly and the country can't afford that business to go under. Microsoft doesn't count because people can servive without Windows. If for some reason the government needed a particular thing of Microsoft's, they don't need to take it over, they just get rid of the patent but you can't do that with a railroad. Even the auto sector, look how many choices you have-G.M, Ford, Daimler Chrystler, Toyota, Honda, Mitsuibishi etc. Shortlines do not do everything the Class 1s do and so we are more dependant on the Class 1s.

When CN was privatized the government should have said that you can operate privately but remember that you are only 1 of 2 railroads in Canada and the country depends on you to help keep the country running. If you don't operate to the sastisfaction of our voters, than we will take it back off of you and find someone else to run it. Railroads must remember that although the railroads belong to them, the land on which they operate on belongs to the government and the government belongs to the people. If there is too much bad service complaints, excessive unemployement, poor safety record and you can't give a good and logical reason for it that be prepared for the government to step in.

[Anonymous]

My postion on health care--Why should someone work all there life and save up money
for retirement and for there kids when they pass on (In my case I pay a little into a life insurnce fund which a charity is the benifactor) only to have there assets wipped out by a Nursing Home that forces them to turn over all there assets? And I got this from a Weathy Candaian who in lives in Niagara Falls who has a very nice house.

[Anonymous]

When all this backsliding occurs, will the Adirondack Scenic Rairoad have to give the "trackrights back to the New York Central? Will the Delaware & Hudson reclaim the Upper Hudson Scenic Railroad and the Bloomingdale Bog Trail where I hike & mountainbike? Just would like to know how all this silliness is going to affect my neighborhood.
Wayne"
----------------Um Actauly trails under the railbanking act can go and have to go back to the railroads when they need it. There are a few Light Rail and Commuter rail projects that have done this. But you need not worry because the Saratoga Commuter Rail is a long way off

[Junctionfan]

Let me give you an example from my freelanced railroad the Greatlakes and Atlantic. This railroad supposedly runs through out the eastern states and Ontario and Quebec. Now with a railroad that big I run supposedly 400 trains a day and serve hundreds of customers as well as employ over 15,000 workers. If I start dumping my customers like a large autoplant and they can't operate without rail, they will have to either move the operations puting hundreds if not thousands of people out of work and making them have to go on umemployment of welfare; or they downsize the workforce which has almost the same effect, or they have to ship by truck and thus the city is plagued by extra air pollution and major traffic increases that they may not have the infrastructure to support. Either way the government either has to spend money on unemployment, welfare or increase road capacity and maintaince cost. My railroad just cost the some of the people jobs and now they along with other citizens will have to pay higher taxes for this because I wanted to maintain my forecast. Also to remember that if an industry relocates from a city, that city is now without the revenue that they would normally be collecting taxes from them and so now the city has to raise people's property taxes to make it up.

Knowing this, you can see why the government needs to be more involved with the railroads because as I have shown, the decision of the railroad effects us all.

[Anonymous]

Your all using Really big words- So i'm going to dumb down the argument

Look what History Tells us-

Rome- too Big, Collapsed- 756 Ad or so- She fell, after being split in two already (Eastern roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire-)

Thats what happens to A lot of things. The Regional School board here; Lester B Pearson School board, in charge of Elementray and Secondary public schools in this area Became a Giant after consuming 2 other school boards-

big whoop, right?

Well- after that, Money got so far stretched- they couldn't afford to change light bulbs- The same friggin one was flickering above my head for six months, and I reported it umpteen times.

The bigger you get, the further you have to stretch money-

SO if we devided UP into NP, SP, EP, and WP, and made them hate each other, so they wouldn't talk to each other, share the same office space, or the same block for that matter- Would the generate more money? Would money Go firther- Ofcourse it would, smaller Quarters, Smaller circulation zone- Things get fixed when they need to-

I look at the School board that used to run my school- New frontiers School board- 3 schools they were in chrage of, THREE! not Lester's 500- THREE you better believe they had money comming out of the Umphalumpa we had resource teachers, spare this teachers, spare that teachers- Teach me how to teach teachers, Teaching teachers, And all the kings horses, and all the kinds men- Not a crap run Lester school-

SO Yes i can see were he is comming from; Get to big collapse-

Cough.. ROME...cough

Now I see the word Socialisim appear above;

Yeah...and?

what does that have to do with Trains Demerging?

Jimmy Hoffa was good at Stuff
Houdini made things dissapear
And Jack the ripper was good at slicing people up

you lost me in that part of your argument

[agentatascadero]

Let's see: capitolism values Money, socialism values.... people. When capitolism "commoditizes" us all to the grave, where is the value of all the money which was made in doing so? Unfettered business is in no way user (spaceship earth) friendly.

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by agentatascadero

Let's see: capitolism values Money, socialism values.... people. When capitolism "commoditizes" us all to the grave, where is the value of all the money which was made in doing so? Unfettered business is in no way user (spaceship earth) friendly.

Socialism values people. Shining examples: the former Soviet Union, Red China, Cuba.
The capitolist system is not perfect, but you don't see many people literally risking their lives trying to defect to China or Cuba. However, you do see those who want to leave those workers paradises.

[edblysard]

Read, then re-read you postings...
It finally clicked...
A liberal arts student going to college on a goverment loan, which you seem up set about having to pay back with interest...(pssstt..thats called capitalism, profit from money only, nothing produced...)

Your what, 20?

Never had any job that required you to actually work, beyond punching keys on a cash register at the local hambuger joint or Stop and Rob...

One thing that is glaring clear,,,your favorite word is "I"...

When you grow up some, and get out in the cut throat world of professional music, come back and argue your points a little better, so far, you ought to have a bunch of splinters in your fanny from sitting the fence.
You seem to want all the benifits, with none of the work....
and have no idea how the real world works....
Your concept of the "haves" are obligated to share with the "have nots" just because they are the ones who "have" wealth is, well, silly...
You will get eaten that way.
The idea that sucessful people should, by goverment fiat, be allowed to run important business, based only on the concept that they somehow have skills or knowledge above others is , silly too...

By the way, the AFDC program, (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) is a federal program, nation wide.
Medicare and medicade are also federal programs, one is for those chronic unemployeed, the other is a health insurance suppliment for older, or disabled Americans.

And by the way, UP will not fail, nor will BNSF, NS, or CSX.
They will, can, and do adapt to business changes...
The idea that any business is so important that the goverment has a moral right to "take over" siad business is, by the way, a concept that has been kicked around here in America a lot of times...
So far, other than weapons manufacturing, and some aspects of the nuclear program, it hasnt been very sucessful...

Our laws make it quite clear, no matter what the business, if you own it, then its your to screw up as much as you want...till your broke or fired...

Law of nature, the fittest survive, weak fail...
That happen to be one of the basic laws/concepts in any business, including paino playing, and composing...
Write and play cruddy music, no one will listen to it, or buy the C/D...

You should change the quote in your profile to...

"If the trains too short, the goverment will take you over"

Good luck.
Ed

[Junctionfan]

You seem to like living in a world with greed and lack of caring. Let's see how you do as a poor person without a job and trying to support a familly. You think that your attitude is exceptable human behaviour. I think it is barbaric and inhumane as well as dismissive to the needs of others. You have some cheak telling me basically that my profession means jack **** to others. What do you know about my work-nothing. I am to be 25 on the 9th and I have been working at various places like a furniture store, library, and have done daycare. I also have done volunteer work here and there. I am proud what I have done with myself right now. I am respected by fellow musicians and I am even known to world reknown harpsichordist Colin Tilney. My mentor is a formal student of Wanda Landowska and Greta Kraus (famous harpsichordists) and was one of the few friends that Glen Gould had. I think I am doing quite well for myself.

Your insults mean nothing to me as your arguements are nothing but irrational, morally base garbage. I am glad people like you make up a small portion of society.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

I don't know how you do things in the U.S but in Canada public education work rather well. So does public health and some medicare. Ontario Northland isn't too bad and most of the hydro companies other than Ontario Hydro, are not bad either. There is alot of things over in Canada that run good or good enough by the government. In Ontario, liquor is distributed by the LCBO-Liquor Control Board of Ontario-so youths can't get easy access to alchol. We pay alot of taxes but it is worth it. You may pay alot of taxes in your life but heart surgury, children's education from Kindergarden to Grade 12, certain medicines are free. If it works for Canada who has a smaller population and less GDP than the U.S, why wouldn't work for a more wealthy country like the U.S?

I always assumed that the heavy tax burden "enjoyed" by canadian citizens was elemental to the horrendous exchange rate between US and canadian dollars? What is a canadian dollar worth in us currency these days? Then you pay something like 15% sales tax on most things purchased?

If that is the cost of progress, I'm happy to be a knuckle dragger...

[Junctionfan]

U.S has the advantage of more industrial development and a greater GDP than Canada. Plus in Canada, majority of industries are U.S owned or they do most of the business with the U.S because they depend on the U.S so the U.S dollar is worth more and ours is not so good. If you look at the U.K for example, their pound is even worth more than the U.S dollar and alot of "essential services" there is government run plus I believe the taxes there are higher than in Canada.

[edblysard]

By all means, you should be proud of you music skills, I have a hard time reading a chord sheet, although I do manage to pluck out a tune or two on the guitars I make...

And, just so you get a real clear pictue of the barbaric world I come from...
My wife currently is a Enforcement Officer, for the Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas, Child Support Division....

Before I went railroading, I spent 8 years in the Welfare Fraud Recovery Division, Office of the Attorney General, State of Texas...

My job was to find, then document, arrest and prosecute welfare fraud recipents...

My wife enforces the child support laws of Texas, in out of state cases...because of her, thousands of children eat, have school clothes, and a warm place to sleep at night...

Her job entails getting other states to enforce court ordered child support orders from the state of Texas in their states, and enforcing their court orders on absent parents who reside in Texas...

My job entailed hunting down these scum, most of, but not all of whom, were able bodied males who left their children to live off welfare, while they enjoyed the fruits of their jobs, with out paying their court ordered child support.

Or, in the case of children born out of marriage, I found, and enforced court ordered paternity testing, to establish a person as the absent parent, then helped write and enforce the court order for child support.

In the case of welfare fraud, you would be amazed how much money is given away to people who have no physical or mental defect, other than they just chose not to work, because our goverment has designed a system that encourages them not to become employeed.

Mark, one of the reasons your health care cost so much is because, simply put, your are not paying just for you and your family, you are also absorbing the health care cost for over 5 million people, per year, and the number grows larger each year.

Here is a couple of numbers to do the math on...
We will use the county I worked out of, because it is typical of a large metropolitan area...

DHS, (dept of human services) now know as the Work Force Commission, has 50 offices in Harris county.

Each office has, on average, 90 case workes to certify people for welfare benifits.

I am using the generic terms here, each state has its own name for welfare and the services provided, but all the funds come from the feds....

So, you have 50 offices, with 90 workers, thats 4500 employees whos only job is to certify someone to recieve goverment benifits...

They are required to see and process one case per hour, they work 8 hours a day, thats 36000 cases per day.

Granted, most of the cases are not new cases, but re certification, and not all of them receive the full benifit package, the monthly checks, food stamps, HUD housing allotment, light bill cap, daycare, medicade certification, and clothing allowance.

But, according to the numbers from my wifes office as of friday, one in every four cases in Harris county are new cases, applying for all the benifits allowed, so thats 9000 new cases every day.

Here are monthly the dollar figures...
Per child, $162.00.
Caregiver, $264.00
Food stamp, based on a percent and age of recipent, averages out to $300.00 per person per month.
Hud Housing, also based on number of children, up to 90% of the rent of the unit.(feds pay 90%, "renter" pays 10%.
Light bill cap, max charged to recipent, $50.00 per month.
Daycare, provided free to the recipent, including transportation to and from, and a lunch for the child..(remember, parent(s) are unemployeed, and stay home all day,but they need daycare??)
No set figure, depends on where you want you kids to go, but you dont pay...
I pay my youngest childs daycare, bet on $119.00 per week, or $476.00 per child per month.
Health care, recipent is ceritfied for medicade, means they pay $5.00 per doctors visit, and $5.00 perscription fee, regardless of the number of perscriptions, they only pay the first $5.00, period.
You, the taxpayer, pay the rest...

So, lets use the typical welfare recipent family.

1 mother, dad is absent parent, (not really, he lives with them, but has no job, and no plans to get one)
3 children, two from other fathers, no marriages for mother.
So, you have $264.00 caregiver
$1386.00 for 3 kids

Food stamps,
$1200.00 4X$300.00
Housing $640.00
Housing average $650.00 two bedroom apartment in any complex that receives federal funds for anything, minus the $10.00 recipent pays, .
Light bill cap, $260.00, minus the max the recipent pays, $50.00.

Daycare, paid 100% $1428.00 (3X $476.00 per child)

No figures for medical cost, havent gone into the DHS database, and this quarters figures are not yet published, but just look at your medical cost, lets use Marks figure, rounded off to $1100.00 per person per year, that s
$4400.00 per year, or $366.00 per month per family...


Ready?
This is per month...family of 4, mom and three kids....you pay this for them.
$264.00 monthly check for caregiver (mom)
$1386.00 monthly check for 3 kids
$1200.00 Foods stamps
$640.00 rent
$210.00 light bill
$1428.00 daycare
$366.00 Health care.

$5494.00________ you pay, per month, to support them.
thats $65928.00 per year.

Not to shabby for a family with out a job...

9000 new cases per day, in Harris county alone.
9000X $5494.00, means in one day, you give away over 4 million dollars in federal money, in one county, in one state, in one day.

Starting to go numb?
Add it up for the entire nation....

Look at it for eight years.....I got numb too.

My wife is on her 11 year with the agency.

She has enjoyed her job more than you could imagine...she gets the missing, or absent parent to pay their fair share of the children's support.

I enjoyed my job for a long time, I made the cheaters pay back what the stole, through their fraud, and I got to find the scum who abandoned their kids.

So the money I recovered could go to the ones who really do need it, the kids who's parents dumped on them.

I have zero tolerance for someone who can work, and chooses not too.

I have zero tolerance, and zero pity for those who father children out of wedlock, and then leave them with the mom,( or dad sometimes) and go on their way.

I have zero tolerance for those who think, because they breath air, they are entitled to get something for free, when so many who have no choice in their circumstances, parantage, or status at birth, and who need, really need soceity to look after them, go with out the basic human needs, food, cloths, and a place to sleep out of the rain, all because some jerk is too lazy to get a job, and has figured out it easier, and more profitable, to live off the system...

Oh, and trust me, the figures I put up here are real, they came from the last recovery case I worked, the recipents were a white, 25 and 26 year old un- married couple, with three kids, who were commiting fraud.

They all were living together in a HUD apartment in the Woodlands, drove a LEASED Lexus and a Jeep Cherokee, registerd to his ex wife, went to Lake Charles, LA, to play the casinos once a month, and were surprised as all get out when they were ordered, by the court, to pay back their debt, at $240.00 per month.
They were in the system for over four years...

Although they were forbidden to re enter the system, I am sure by now they have managed to do so, do in part to the fact that the workers at DHS do not have the time to check the applicants out.

If you walk in, they can not, by law, refuse to assist you.

Mark could walk into a DHS office, with my kids, tell them "my girlfriend split, and left her kids with me", and he would walk out with a emergency check, a Lone Star card(food stamps), a HUD voucher for a months rent.

No check on his story, his SS#, Drivers license#, nothing.

He will, of course, have to go back the next month and re-certify, but by then, he will have come up with a false SS#,(wont be checked) and a out of state DL(no check there, either)

They will take the info, file it, and go on about business as usual...Mark only has to go back every three months to re certify.

Unless Mark does something that trips the computerized system into asking for a audit, none of his info will be checked out, there is just flat out too many of them to check each one.

There are randome audits, but not many.

Sounds too easy to be true, dont it, but thats how it works.

Of course, being a barbarian, it shouldnt bother me...
too much...

By the way, Andrew, I am 45, and have been employeed, full time, since I was 14.
Never made it to college, had to support myself fully from 17 on.

I have never collected un-employment, or welfare, in any shape.

My wife is *9, and has been employeed since she was 18.

She is a part time college student, going after her bachelor's degree in computer languages, full time mom, and full time Child Support Officer.

We dont qualify for any goverment "student loan", we paid for her schooling, along with raising 3 daughters, ages 5, 11 and 17.

We are such barbarians that our 11 year old daughter was chosen, along with 10 other kids, from her public school system, HISD, the fourth largest school system in the USA, to be a student ambassador to the UK this summer.

Real barbaric folks, us Texans...

You really need to stay in the insulated world you currently live in, the real world will consume you, and you cant really understand that nothing, absolutly nothing in life is ever free....everything there is is paid for by the sweat off of somebodys back, no matter how free you think it should be.

I hope your music career is succesful, you seem to be one of those people who feel sweating for a living is somehow beneath you...

Because if you dont make it composing....your in for a world of hurt, and a real big surprise when you find out your textbooks were a little wrong...

Stay Frosty,
And I really mean this...
Good Luck..
Ed



.

[Junctionfan]

I am not attacking your family and I sure am not attacking Texas. I don't like being frosty with you but you were the first one to get personal. Till recently the thread was but a respectful and peaceful debate. Since I hurt you I will apoligies because I am not a malicious person by nature and your family sounds like a decent hard-working family and I mean no disrespect.

On to the debate which I will hope will be more friendly now,

You are describing welfare bums. The scum and leaches of the earth who have no interest in being a meaningful and productive members of society. Every country has them regardless of political stripe. To hell with those loosers; I was more concerned about the genuine desearving people who can't make ends meat which I am glad to say was the thing I was hoping to hear from you. I am glad I was wrong about you. Thease are the people who need the public healthcare not some lazy bum who doesn't even have the guts to support his family properly.

Actually I have worked really hard in case you are wondering. Had to pack up and move furniture from a large government office building in one week. One of the shifts was between 6:00am to 2:00am in the morning on the Friday. I almost got injured badly from a heavy metal shelving unit that fell over.

I hope I have done a good job in stopping the tension between us.

Respectfully

Andrew

[edblysard]

Andrew,
Not to worry,
Us barbarians have pretty thick skin, so do Texans...
Actually, I didnt take much of what you wrote personal...
I am going to make a assumption here, English is not your spoken language?
I have a good friend, Canadian, whos first language is french.
His frenglish is getting better.
By the way, I am not describing just the scum, or lower case people...there is a entire sub culture who has lived for two generations in this system.
They are born, grow up, live and die, with out ever leaving the system.
No one expects them to produce a thing, other than more children.
And they live up to those expectations.
Look hard at those numbers...they are real.
Should scary the bejesus out of you.

And note, no where did I say the Canadian system was wrong, nor do I think it is wrong, in fact, I think that, for you and your culture, its perfect.
After all, you voted it into exsistence.

The jibes at you were a attempt to get you to think about what you were typing.
And trying to get you to understand that you seem to be commenting on a system, and a country, that you dont live in.

I made no such assumption, nor comments on or about your system, I have visited your country, but as a young man, and, having never lived there, nor been a part of your culture, i am not really qualified to comment on it, nor tell you whats wrong with it.

But, such a complete revamping of the social system cant work in America.

One, there is just way too many people, the cost is staggering.

Two, although I am sure your country has some illegal immigration, it is nothing compared to what we have.

If we made the current system any more liberal, then your quip about Mexico repossing Texas might come true!

Our laws are real clear on ownership of business, the goverment cant, except in some very limited cases of national security, just decide your not doing a good job, and take your business away from you.

No matter how important said business is to the economy.

If it worked that way, there would be no Enron problem.

If the feds "took" UP away from it's legal owners, and appointed Donald Trump to run it, the lawsuits wouldn't be settled for a decade.

We are stuck with our current economic system, its a hard system to change, but you can do it, in small incremental phases.

But you can never create or cause a radical change.

Note that every politican running for office always promises change, but when they are elected, and it matters not which one you elect, things still pretty much stay the same?

Sure, you see small policy changes, but nothing too radical.

Reveloution, on any scale outside of a closed, small system, say, at a college, is a done deal in America....

By the way, the Stay Frosty...means stay cool...its a play on my last name, pronounced like the snow storm,,,Blizzard, only spelled Blysard.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Junctionfan]

English is my only language-spell check or for that matter grammar check, isn't often part of my vocabulary. My biggest problem is that I often lack focus on one thing because I always at some point, think about too many things at once. I often get headaches or migraines because of it.

I type from the heart. Since I see suffering in the U.S too, I want to help in some way by giving an idea what could be done. My heart is in the right place even though I likely need to do alot more research into the issues. As for my music-you might find it interesting. I played some of it to people who were not interested in classical music and they thought it was cool. The title of this gigantic piece for orchestra is The Infernal Nightmare. This quite possibly is the most terrifying piece of music. Makes Ozzy Osbourne look angelic. Stay tuned.

[Anonymous]

I was just in St.Cathrines Ontario too-

Saw Niagra Falls and everything

I think I understand were you both are comming from, And i think this whole argument started by a missinturpritation-

Accidents happen-

[:D]

What about my proposal to split UP, no one debated that?

i'm dissapoionted-

[Junctionfan]

I don't think that a split would be good at this time. It has already happened and everything has had to adapt to the whole process including poor Texas with UP and the SP merger. Not to mention you get fall-out if a split is done crappy like Conrail. Unforntunately the only real option is the government and hoping the bureaucrats in our capital cities, know what the hell they are doing. I think the best way of implementing the plan of mine that I stated above if that is what the government felt it needed to do, would have to be that the voters vote in a person who must have the credentials to run, so if he has done a bad job the voter vote him out or can have him recalled. I don't trust our politicians that much though as they tend to appoint folk who don't know what they are doing nor do they really answer to anybody plus they only get the position because they are pals with the guy in power.

[Junctionfan]

Just to clear up something, I am at the collage taking the law and security program to become a customs officer. I decided to fall back on this instead of being a music professor because ever since 9-11, our countries need help to protect the boarder so I heard my second calling.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

What's to debate? The split would have to be compelled by the federal government. Since no law exists that authorizes that compulsion, that law would have to be created through a bill introduced in Congress, which would have to pass and be signed into law by the President. Then you'd be off to the courts to argue its constitutionality. As the U.S. Constitution is presently construed and interpreted, I am in great doubt that such a law would be upheld by the courts. The potential that law would have for creating mischief would push just about every corporation, union, and public advocacy group right into the courts, too.

Or did you want us to set all that aside for the moment -- even though without that proviso all discussion is academic and fantastic -- and talk about advantages and disdvantages of a split? First, may I suggest it would be more appropriate to debate the existing law on mergers and anti-trust, and see if that needs to be modified in the general case, before we charge off into a specific case where we're likely to drown in detail of circumstance?

So what your saying Is merging is like taking a chain-saw to butter, but demerging is like taking a chainsaw to a rock?

Why is the process so much more difficult to demerge?

SO once your merged, your in a bind?

Don't like that- Correct me If i'm Wrong Andrew, but demerging is easier then Merging up here- I should know, our city just Demerged from the City of Montreal.

The last Gov't merged us all, But then the liberal Gov't got back in- and they demereged us, with ease, some uproar, but not nearly as much as merging.

UP needs to down scale-

[Junctionfan]

Canada doesn't seem to have as many problems with radical changes. The U.S doesn't seem to like major change that is why I don't think UP demerging would be a good idea. If CN does a crappy job with BC Rail and the BC government tell CN to stick it and grabs it back off of them some how, I believe our citizens would be more supportive.