After reading some posts to this, I can agree with the Hump Yard closures being a good thing, but I still think that the closure of Intermodal facilities is bad.
The Sprinter service is on its final sprint this weekend, and the only logical reasons i can think of as to why they're eliminating their highest priority train between Chicago and the Twin Cities is because of an increase in competition and a decrease in demand.
Train 170 for Kansas City had a block of 40 Frac Sand Hoppers on the Head-end out of LaCrescent, MN on Thursday.
DwightBranch I'll bet (CP wishes) that they hadn't paid $1.5B for the DM&E. Does anyone remember what CNW was paid for that track (not counting the IC&E) in the eighties, something like $30M, right?
I'll bet (CP wishes) that they hadn't paid $1.5B for the DM&E. Does anyone remember what CNW was paid for that track (not counting the IC&E) in the eighties, something like $30M, right?
This was one of Bill Ackman's arguments, saying he'd like to see CP sell it off. However, on subsequent threads exploring the subject here, a couple of CP railroaders showed how the DM&E was making money for the CP. Getting into Kansas City was also important.
In counting the price, remember to correct for inflation and much better times for the rails now over those of 30 years ago -- as well as for the IC&E.
CPRcst I was also targeting the comments about a UP expansion. I know that under Fred Green there was a close relationship with KCS; the last time KCS was offered for sale CP decided to pass as the asking price was too high. When Rob Ritchie was CP CEO he said in an employee town hall that CP had considered buying IC but found the price too high. CN was willing to pay more just to get Hunter Harrison.CP's corporate culture has always been to keep expenditures down, everything is always done the cheapest way possible while still getting the job done. Whether Hunter can still find more efficiencies without a large capital infusion remains to be seen. My main point was that commentators and pundits from south of the 49th don't fully realize what a sensitive subject any takeover of a Canadian road, particularly a cultural icon like CP, would be in Canada.
I was also targeting the comments about a UP expansion. I know that under Fred Green there was a close relationship with KCS; the last time KCS was offered for sale CP decided to pass as the asking price was too high. When Rob Ritchie was CP CEO he said in an employee town hall that CP had considered buying IC but found the price too high. CN was willing to pay more just to get Hunter Harrison.CP's corporate culture has always been to keep expenditures down, everything is always done the cheapest way possible while still getting the job done. Whether Hunter can still find more efficiencies without a large capital infusion remains to be seen.
My main point was that commentators and pundits from south of the 49th don't fully realize what a sensitive subject any takeover of a Canadian road, particularly a cultural icon like CP, would be in Canada.
I'll bet they wish that they hadn't paid $1.5B for the DM&E. Does anyone remember what CNW was paid for that track (not counting the IC&E) in the eighties, something like $30M, right?
CPRcst My main point was that commentators and pundits from south of the 49th don't fully realize what a sensitive subject any takeover of a Canadian road, particularly a cultural icon like CP, would be in Canada.
I don't know. The Illinois Central was more American even than apple pie, yet it got sold off to a Canadian road. Perhaps CP isn't so sacred... it could be sold off. At one point CP was closely tied to our national identity. Indeed, Canada as we know it would not exist but for the construction of the Canadian Pacific. But that's history... CP, as important as it is, is nolonger an integral part of Canada's national identity.
And that's assuming the US regulators would approve the purchase of KCS by a Canadian road. Somehow I doubt that. CN did purchase an American icon, the IC, but those were different times. 911 changed alot, we're all alot more protectionist now than we were prior to 911.
CPRcst I hate to break your expansion bubble, but the takeover of CP by a US road is a no go for any Canadian government, no matter which political stripe.
I hate to break your expansion bubble, but the takeover of CP by a US road is a no go for any Canadian government, no matter which political stripe.
Dan
cptrainman I work a yard assignment as an engineer. I am talking about one yard relieving another yard. Same thing happened yesterday. Good for my pocketbook but hardly efficient.
I work a yard assignment as an engineer. I am talking about one yard relieving another yard. Same thing happened yesterday. Good for my pocketbook but hardly efficient.
With all due respect, the view behind the control stand of a locomotive and the view in being responsible for the overall operation of a terminal and all the crews that work in it are vastly different. Having watched what happens when train and enginemen that 'knew it all' when beind the engines control stand and got into the office and found out they didn't know the questions, let alone know the answers to those question.
If you have the better answers, bid in the next Yardmaster or Train Dispatcher bulletin that comes around and give your carrier the benefit of your expertise.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergert cptrainman: First point, I hope there is a wholesale change of managers at least where I am. In my opinion there are only one or two that are worth their salary. The rest are basically stealing from the comapny by accepting wages. Just yesterday I was watching a Trainmaster and wondering WTF. If he wasn't so lazy, he could have saved the company some overtime wages. We were sitting on straight time while another crew was working at overtime. Just give us a ride to relieve those guys. Let them go home and save the company some overtime. I am tired of making suggestions to Trainmasters. They don't listen, so I give up. I don't know what your contract allows, but if I work a train and also used (inaddition to working the original train) to relieve/work another train, I can claim 8 hours straight time in addition to the pay for the train originally worked. I would think you would have that too. Even if you don't, that TM may have thought you did. Working them on overtime may be cheaper than a second day's pay claim. Jeff
cptrainman: First point, I hope there is a wholesale change of managers at least where I am. In my opinion there are only one or two that are worth their salary. The rest are basically stealing from the comapny by accepting wages. Just yesterday I was watching a Trainmaster and wondering WTF. If he wasn't so lazy, he could have saved the company some overtime wages. We were sitting on straight time while another crew was working at overtime. Just give us a ride to relieve those guys. Let them go home and save the company some overtime. I am tired of making suggestions to Trainmasters. They don't listen, so I give up.
First point, I hope there is a wholesale change of managers at least where I am. In my opinion there are only one or two that are worth their salary. The rest are basically stealing from the comapny by accepting wages. Just yesterday I was watching a Trainmaster and wondering WTF. If he wasn't so lazy, he could have saved the company some overtime wages. We were sitting on straight time while another crew was working at overtime. Just give us a ride to relieve those guys. Let them go home and save the company some overtime. I am tired of making suggestions to Trainmasters. They don't listen, so I give up.
I don't know what your contract allows, but if I work a train and also used (inaddition to working the original train) to relieve/work another train, I can claim 8 hours straight time in addition to the pay for the train originally worked. I would think you would have that too. Even if you don't, that TM may have thought you did. Working them on overtime may be cheaper than a second day's pay claim.
Jeff
Jeff:
True...maybe Walmart will buy it. That wouldn't be so far fetched...alot fo those containers heading east are filled with stuff for Walmart shelves... may as well own the distribution channel if you can, and use it as a profit center as well.
4 pages of speculation on C.P.R. on a railway that operated for a 100 years as a monopoly and only game in town, the opposition was a Crown corporation, so was not really any opposition, Who knows what will happen to C.P.R., something will, and it will be a major move in the railway industry in Canada, remember nothing has happened as it rolled along for a century, but big things are about to happen.
To all the speculators, increase your speculation by 1000% and you will be in the ball park.
In my prior life before I retired as an oil and gas consultant I had many trips to Calgary. I would stay at the Palliser Hotel, a CP (do not like the Fairmont name) hotel and on the track side. The CP main line would be out the window 8 stories below. Saw many covered hoppers carrying grain to the Pacific ports. Many covered hoppers were from the Alberta Grain Pool. Also saw lots of open top hoppers carrying yellow sulphur. Due to the weight the hoppers would only be filled to about 2/3 of capacity. Most of the trains had DP in the middle and on the end of the train. The big climb through Kicking Horse pass required the extra power. Hope EHH can increase this business.
I plead guilty to conspiracy of hijacking this thread and moving it from Canada to Houston and will move my comments to the new thread.
Ed and Mac....thanks for all the info. It makes sense. Paul, thanks for the link to the tariff.
More comments on the other thread.
Ed
Bruce Kelly There's been talk of UP/CP before. In the meantime, keep your eyes open for a possible extension of UP north of the border in the not too distant future.
There's been talk of UP/CP before. In the meantime, keep your eyes open for a possible extension of UP north of the border in the not too distant future.
I wonder if EHH was brought on to do more operational streamlining or business growth. I'm sure it's a mix of both, but I wonder just how much business can be drummed up.
edblysard Balt, Someone asked a question about a SIT yard and the UP melt down, I think drawing a comparison between UP's problem and what may happen to /at CP, and as I am only familiar with the yards here and on my property, I answered it using the info I am familiar with...sorry if answering their question offended you, I was under the impression this forum was to dissimilate information, and was providing the info I saw fit. We now return you to the regularly scheduled CP/Harrison thread.
Balt,
Someone asked a question about a SIT yard and the UP melt down, I think drawing a comparison between UP's problem and what may happen to /at CP, and as I am only familiar with the yards here and on my property, I answered it using the info I am familiar with...sorry if answering their question offended you, I was under the impression this forum was to dissimilate information, and was providing the info I saw fit.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled CP/Harrison thread.
Samfp1943 actually tried to set up a new thread for you guys but it got lost somehow. (I am not offended but it actually makes it easier to keep threads going if they are split up I think, multiple-topic threads are frustrating sometimes).
23 17 46 11
As Mac pointed out, the SIT yard does not do away with switching, in fact, Dayton has 3 crews per day, 7 days a week to set up and dig out specific cars for pickup.
Casey Yard used to run the "Casey Turn" to the PTRA, specific ordered blocks of covered hoppers, both empty and loads, empties for the plants to fill, and loads for other customers we serve who use that product.
A "unit train" of covered hoppers, you may even have seen one on your favorite railroad, a solid train of covered hoppers, it a huge business.
An example of how this works...customer in NJ calls Phillips and wants 25 hoppers of poly ethylene...Phillips doesn't have 25 hoppers of the stuff in their private yard...they had 10, so they set those 10 out in the siding by their plant, PTRA pick them up, forwards them to the BNSF, who pulls from Pasadena...on the way out of town towards Forth Worth, the BN stops at Casey, to pick up the other 15 loads, which Phillips has been storing there.
The switch crew at Casey pulled those specific cars per Phillips request, set them on Casey siding, did an initial terminal air test on them, and BNSF picks them up on the rear of their train, which is where we placed to other 10 from Pasadena...customer get his 25 hoppers of Wal-Mart bag plastic.
Phillips has the cars on long term lease.
If you noticed, most covered hoppers in plastic service are leased, PSPX, ECUX, reporting marks like that, you don't see all that many railroad owned covered hoppers in plastic service.
Because they have their own yard, there is no charge on the storage of the ten, but the 15 that were at Casey, which is BNSF property, do accrue a charge.
PTRA's switching tariff is included in the BNSF final bill for the shipping, customer pays BNSF for the shipping and storage fee, BNSF pays PTRA for our switching.
SIT yards run just like any other yard, there are yardmasters and switch crews, they are busy places....the cars are tracked just like any other railroad, and there are AEI scanners to keep an inventory.
SIT customers can be plants like Phillips, manufactures, and end users, the guy in Jersey may have his 25 cars placed in a SIT yard there, and have one or two at a time switched or delivered to his plant on an as needed basis.
In private SIT yards, the daily fee can be on a per contract basis, in railroad owned SIT yards the fee is published in their tariff rates.
Keep in mind that places like Phillips, Solvay and Oxy Pasadena don't make this stuff by the 100 car loads, they make 1000s of loads of this stuff, tooling up a plant like Phillips is costly, and making a run of this stuff has to justify the tooling cost.
There is really no way to store that much stuff on premises, you would need a building twice the size of the plant proper, so the mobile storage concept of SIT works perfectly.
A running inventory is keep on what cars are in what track, and what their contents are, customers can order a specific product in a specific car by car reporting mark, as is often the case with products like styrene, which degrades over time, Casey and Dayton both can pull and set out that one specific car for movement in a train.
How did a CP-Hunter Harrison thread morph into a PRTA plastics seminar?
For the details of how Ed's railroad - the PTRA - charges for car switching, see its July 2007 "Base Tariff" at: http://www.ptra.com/pages/basetariff2000B2007July.pdf It's only 13 pages and about 170 KB file size, so it lends itself to a quick perusal to get the 'flavor' of how these things are set up. The amount of some of those charges might take your breath away if you're more accustomed to consumer and retail-level fees and charges than the industrial-size ones - they'll buy a lot of "crackers and cheese" for our buddy Ed !
- Paul North.
Ed,
I will discuss items 3 and 6. I have done shortline marketing, but have no specific knowledge of Houston area SIT yards, so my comments will be general. Also my experience is more with tank cars than private hoppers, but principles are the same.
The most common charge a railroad will apply to excess cars at destination is demurrage, which started out as a penalty charge for tying up railroad equipment. Demurage also applies to private cars held on railroad track in the absense of other agreement or tariff provision. At one time it also applied to private cars on private track where the ownership of car and track were NOT the same. That is why virtually every tank car shipment for decades carried the notation ' Car trip leased to consignee"
The point of this is that you need to start from the concept of demurrage. The other key point is that railroads are in the transportation business, not storage.
As a practical matter the SIT customers are important customers. They ship many high revenue cars, so the carriers need to accomodate them and want to accommodate them while still getting paid for the accessorial services they are providing.
The move into the SIT yard will be charged as a switch charge it the yard is at the origin station. If move is to a different statiion, will charge as a line haul move. The move out of the SIT yard will charge as a line haul move, probably at the same rate as if from actual origin. I am 99% certain there is no "Storage in Transit" through billing. There is no reason to introduce unnecessary complications. To the best of my knowledge the carriers got rid of all of the "transit" type rates post Staqgers Act.
Ed is correct in that getting the cars out of the origin/termnination yard reduces the space and switching burden on that yard, but his statement could be misread as implying that SIT yards reduce total switching. That is not true. Imagine you have a 1200 car SIT yard with an average population of 1000 per day and an average 10 day dwell. That means whoever operates the yard has to dig out 100 cars per day. The only question is how random the cars to come out are and how random the yard is arranged at any given moment. I expect both are highly random. That means a lot of switching.
If releases can be given to the switch crew all at once, they will have to move almost every car in the yard to get the 100 of of the 1000. If releases come in fits and starts while the crew is working, they could handle each track three or four times.
Someone invested serious money in the yard itself. That has to be recovered. Those costs could be recovered as demurage, as storage, or as lease charges. There are advantages to each. I would not be surprised to find a variety of arrangements actually used.
The return of empty private cars is not charged separately from the load. Those costs are built into the loaded rate. Returning an empty to a SIT yard introduces addtional handling, so I suspect there is a charge for moving an empty from a SIT yard to spot. If I were doing the tariff/rate agreement I would call it a 'Stop Charge".
Mac McCulloch
Yes to both 1 and 2,
# 3 is both, depends on the product, PVC powder is normally single movement bill of lading, but stuff like Phillips medical grade plastic often goes on a through movement arrangement, it stays at the SIT yard only because Phillips has no place to store it, but it doesn't stay there long.
Liquid styrene only hits the SIT yard to because it has been ordered, but the receiver has no place to receive or isn't ready for the car yet, styrene will degrade after about 2 weeks, so they are moved quickly.
4, 5 & 6 right on, private SIT yards charge by contract, railroad owned SIT charge the normal tariff charge for storage, which should give you an idea of the value of the product, the manufacture can afford to pay weeks of storage fees on a loaded car because the value of the load is enormous
With an empty, you would still pay the fee if it was sitting in a siding, a railroad switch yard, or the SIT yard, the benefit is you know where the cars are, and how long it will take to get them to your plant, instead of having a railroad clerk having to "round them up" for you.
That is one of the major benefits of a SIT yard, the cars are not sitting in a switching yard taking up space needed for switching, no one has to "work around" them, all of that, and the customers, both the shipper and receiver know right where that particular type of car is, the time it can be moved, and the transit time to get it to the plant or the final customer.
Imagine a "coal " yard where all the gons are stored, both the loads and empties, but for plastic or petrochemical products instead...same concept, keep them all together so sorting them out is easy.
MP173 Ed:I really appreciate the tour de Houston. The railroad infrastructure is vast. Are most of these SIT yards owned by the railroads? If so do you know the pricing relationship with the shippers? Not specifically, but I am curious how things work. It appears to me that ( and PLEASE correct me if incorrect): 1. Customer (petrochemical company) manufactures a product (lets refer to it as plastic granuals, type ABC) and has production runs of that product a few times a year (let's say 4x year). It produces what it considers to be a quarterly inventory and then without adequate storage facilities on property, loads it on a leased or owned railcar. 2. Customer pays leasing company $x per month for the covered hopper. Round trip turns are not as critical as the storage factor for the product ABC. It is literally a warehouse on wheels. 3. Customer contracts with railroad to move the covered hopper from their facility to SIT yard. Is this a single rail movement by bill of lading? Or is there an arrangment to handle the entire movement to the yet undetermined consignee at a thru rate with accessorial charges for pickup, storage, etc? 4. End user needs ABC product and notifies customer who releases the car. 5. Railroad ships the car from SIT to consignee. 6. Car returns to Houston when empty for next load. Does the empty car go to the shipper or is it stored for another movement? If stored on railroad, do storage charges apply? What a system. Ed
Ed:I really appreciate the tour de Houston. The railroad infrastructure is vast.
Are most of these SIT yards owned by the railroads? If so do you know the pricing relationship with the shippers? Not specifically, but I am curious how things work. It appears to me that ( and PLEASE correct me if incorrect):
1. Customer (petrochemical company) manufactures a product (lets refer to it as plastic granuals, type ABC) and has production runs of that product a few times a year (let's say 4x year). It produces what it considers to be a quarterly inventory and then without adequate storage facilities on property, loads it on a leased or owned railcar.
2. Customer pays leasing company $x per month for the covered hopper. Round trip turns are not as critical as the storage factor for the product ABC. It is literally a warehouse on wheels.
3. Customer contracts with railroad to move the covered hopper from their facility to SIT yard. Is this a single rail movement by bill of lading? Or is there an arrangment to handle the entire movement to the yet undetermined consignee at a thru rate with accessorial charges for pickup, storage, etc?
4. End user needs ABC product and notifies customer who releases the car.
5. Railroad ships the car from SIT to consignee.
6. Car returns to Houston when empty for next load. Does the empty car go to the shipper or is it stored for another movement? If stored on railroad, do storage charges apply?
What a system.
Los Angeles Rams Guy gsrrman: NS haS lots of cash and it would be a good fit with little or no overlapping track. That's one of the reasons why a BNSF/KCS marriage would never go over well with the STB and why CPRS + KCS would. I would have to think that BNSF would have its sights set on NS - even if that's far, far down the road.
gsrrman: NS haS lots of cash and it would be a good fit with little or no overlapping track.
NS haS lots of cash and it would be a good fit with little or no overlapping track.
That's one of the reasons why a BNSF/KCS marriage would never go over well with the STB and why CPRS + KCS would. I would have to think that BNSF would have its sights set on NS - even if that's far, far down the road.
The STB mantra since the Clinton years is "two major railroads in every major market", which KCS/BNSF would not change anywhere. The only reason I could see the STB (or more likely, the DOJ) turning it down is if Romney is elected, because Warren Buffett is a major donor to the Democratic Party.
gsrrman NS haS lots of cash and it would be a good fit with little or no overlapping track.
What about a KCS/NS merger. KCS gets to the northeast amd south and NS gets to the Midwest, Upper Midwest and most importantley southwest and Mexico. NS haS lots of cash and it would be a good fit with little or no overlapping track.
MP173 The biggest challenge, that I see, is in the oil patch. Volumes are growing pushing capacity to limits. Investment is needed to convert to CTC line
The biggest challenge, that I see, is in the oil patch. Volumes are growing pushing capacity to limits. Investment is needed to convert to CTC line
I wanted to touch on a few points.
Firstly, Ed's comment, along with my wishlist for CTC and longer sidings in the Lethbridge, AB area, work out to something like 5 miles short of ONE THOUSAND MILES of trackwork! That is going to cost some bucks.
Secondly I wanted to comment on Bruce Kelly's suggestion of UP involvement in Canada. Railways are a Federal responsibility in Canada, and at the moment the Premier of BC, and the Prime Minister along with most of the other Provincial Premier's, are in a big scrap over regulatory and financial concerns with the pipeline to move bitumen from the Athabaska Oil Sands to the Pacific coast. Nobody wants to start a new fight over the CP line from Kingsgate, BC to Crowsnest, AB.
Also in the news, many Canadian across the country, whether they are familiar with the oil patch or not, are unhappy with the plan by a major Chinese company to buy Nexen Inc. who are a player in the Athabaska Oil Sands. Another foreign company buying another Canadian company would be a difficult sell to the electorate who vote in the governments that set the regulations. And people are in no mood to differentiate between a Chinese company and an American one.
If UP were to get into a joint venture/trackage rights deal with CP on the 376 mile line from Kingsgate, BC to Dunmore, AB, that carries potash from the mines in Saskatchewan to the port in Portland, OR, now that is an idea with legs. A project along the lines of UP financially backstopping CP to install CTC and improved sidings along that route. Something similar to the deals between NS and Pan Am Railway on the Patriot Corridor, or the NS/KCS deal on the Meridian Speedway.
It seems there is nothing but good news on the potash front. All of the existing mines in Saskatchewan are expanding their operations. And in March, BHP Billiton and ATCO Ltd. signed a deal for ATCO to provide the largest construction camp, at Jansen, SK, in ATCO's history, which is saying something. This will be a completely new mine.
That would be the kind of venture that would have long term benefits for both CP and UP. I hope I got the American project names and companies right.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
cp traffic has improved after ehh became prezzz. esp. intermodal. thats cool
Los Angeles Rams Guy But, in the end, if it's not CPRS getting KCS then who? CN? They've already got the IC down to the Gulf and our access to KCITY is much better.
But, in the end, if it's not CPRS getting KCS then who? CN? They've already got the IC down to the Gulf and our access to KCITY is much better.
BNSF. They were shut out of Mexico and Buffett has cash. I have been hearing about a KCS/BNSF merger for over a decade, and I am sure Haverty is holding out for a better price. CP just doesn't have the cash.
KCS is like the prettiest girl in the room... everyone wants to partner up with her. KCS would be a good fit for any of the bigger roads.. Would be a real coup for CP...but not so much for KCS. In the end the "Southern Belle" herself will decide who gets her...
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