Bucyrus If a diverging switch fails to throw, does that mean that the restricted signal indication that would be associated with that diverging switch would fail as well, and the signal would stay clear?
If a diverging switch fails to throw, does that mean that the restricted signal indication that would be associated with that diverging switch would fail as well, and the signal would stay clear?
In every signal system I have EVER had and dealings with -
If the power switch does not LOCK in either the Normal (straight track) or Reverse (diverging) position you cannot get ANY signal to line across the switch and the Absolute Signals protecting the switch(es) would remain at STOP. There are a number of 'sensors' in a power switch that detect it's position and it's lock status.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergert The Pratt Subdiv is CTC, with sidings and their associated turnouts good for 30 mph. I have seen a reporting that the collision happened at or near MP484. According to the chart, MP484 is between the switches at Goodwell. It could be that the collision occurred a lot closer to the siding's east switch than we're speculating. I don't know where the siding is in relation to the actual town (RI station location in ETT for Goodwell was MP484.6) but that might account for press locations of a couple miles to the east. The press is using one point in town to measure, we're using the east siding switch/CP. Jeff
The Pratt Subdiv is CTC, with sidings and their associated turnouts good for 30 mph.
I have seen a reporting that the collision happened at or near MP484. According to the chart, MP484 is between the switches at Goodwell. It could be that the collision occurred a lot closer to the siding's east switch than we're speculating. I don't know where the siding is in relation to the actual town (RI station location in ETT for Goodwell was MP484.6) but that might account for press locations of a couple miles to the east. The press is using one point in town to measure, we're using the east siding switch/CP.
Jeff
If it were between the switches in town with a slight curve it could be that the signal showed diverging clear for the westbound, but when they came up on it they saw that the switch was misaligned for the main. That can be hard to see, especially if it is 105 degrees outside. That still wouldn't explain why the witness said they were going 68, but he may have meant a few miles back.
One other item.
This morning on Good Morning America they described a "Switcher Malfunction"
Thx IGN
I guess what I can not understand about this is this:
Broad daylite 10am in the morning. From memory of the last time I drove out there you can see for miles. And you can see a train headlite equally far. As long as someone is looking out the windshield, and had a good idea where the sidings where this should not have happened.
Even if a signal had malfunctioned and a train had missed a siding or stop signal just looking out the windshield should have alerted one of the crews to the impending wreck.
Rgds IGN
beaulieu Don't get hung up on which train would hold the siding and which train would hold the main. At the time the Dispatcher set the meet he probably could not be sure which train would arrive first. His territory is likely to be too large to follow each meet in that detail.
Don't get hung up on which train would hold the siding and which train would hold the main. At the time the Dispatcher set the meet he probably could not be sure which train would arrive first. His territory is likely to be too large to follow each meet in that detail.
A sad truth. There are too many "Bozo" meets out there due to stacked routes that turn out to be a bad idea. The first train there winds up with the main, and the meeting trains snakes in and out of the siding at restricted speed (if the siding isn't signaled). Do it the other way and at least one of the trains doesn't have to slow down.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
jeaton I wonder about the policy of holding the main, too, if that is what happened, once he passed the turnout for the siding he was rolling down the main, and it would be easy to forget the approach restricted, hard yellow signal he just passed., because normally if you don't go into a siding you won't be stopping. In some accidents signal placement has been an issue, I am thinking of the passenger train wreck in Maryland a few years back where the signal was moved to before a station stop because a siding was lengthened (as I recall) , and the crews had a tendency to forget a yellow signal after making a stop for passengers. Hard to say, I am sure that those on the scene are asking the same questions. I also have no idea if the UP either by rule or practise put the first train to arrive at the passing point into the siding. My thought was that as an intermodal, the eastbound might have been "hotter" and even though it would have to stop while the westbound, a shorter train, entered the siding, it might still get on the way sooner than if it took the siding. I'll admit, I have no actual knowledge that my idea would actually produce a better result.
I wonder about the policy of holding the main, too, if that is what happened, once he passed the turnout for the siding he was rolling down the main, and it would be easy to forget the approach restricted, hard yellow signal he just passed., because normally if you don't go into a siding you won't be stopping. In some accidents signal placement has been an issue, I am thinking of the passenger train wreck in Maryland a few years back where the signal was moved to before a station stop because a siding was lengthened (as I recall) , and the crews had a tendency to forget a yellow signal after making a stop for passengers. Hard to say, I am sure that those on the scene are asking the same questions.
One thing to remember about a train that takes siding - it must slow for the entire length of the train over the switches both entering and leaving the siding. Most signaled sidings are being equipped with 25 MPH switches, since the speed restriction for the siding is generally in the 25 MPH range (note - this is for a actual siding - not segments of double track that are functional sidings). Non-signalled sidings (and they still exist) will normally have 10 MPH switches as the authorized speed in the siding is normally Restricted Speed. Pulling 9000 foot plus trains over speed restrictions that apply to the entire length of the train eat up running time quickly.
Our units are not tape based, but all digital with GPS, downloadable via AEI type scanner as well as direct pysical connection. Inputs include horn, bell, speed, air, throttle, brake, milepost, and whatever they can connect to it. It is contained, just like the camera, in a crash proof case, and holds 48 hours of data. With the coming of PTC, more inputs will be added.
Don't get hung up on which train would hold the siding and which train would hold the main. At the time the Dispatcher set the meet he probably could not be sure which train would arrive first. His territory is likely to be too large to follow each meet in that detail. Likely the routes were lined and the siding switches were set one half hour or more before the meet was intended to take place. Things like quartering winds and locomotive performance can alter running speeds for identical trains by makeup.
DwightBranch RRKen: BaltACD mentioned sight-lines, distance, and relationships. Quite a good observation. Yes, signals can tell the story, depending on what was seen or not seen in the field. False clears? Yeah, they happen as Zug has said. Heat distortion? And how many of you guys were told to hold the main instead of the siding? Too many unresolved circumstances to even begin to speculate. Also Zug, your spot on about the rule books now a days. The Law Department has far more say-so over them than Operating guys. Are you still pointing at switches???????? lol On this incident, I will wait for FRA, NTSB, UP to conclude gathering evidence. (hard evidence like event recorders and cameras - something one other mode of transport does not have, but should). I wonder about the policy of holding the main, too, if that is what happened, once he passed the turnout for the siding he was rolling down the main, and it would be easy to forget the approach restricted, hard yellow signal he just passed., because normally if you don't go into a siding you won't be stopping. In some accidents signal placement has been an issue, I am thinking of the passenger train wreck in Maryland a few years back where the signal was moved to before a station stop because a siding was lengthened (as I recall) , and the crews had a tendency to forget a yellow signal after making a stop for passengers. Hard to say, I am sure that those on the scene are asking the same questions.
RRKen: BaltACD mentioned sight-lines, distance, and relationships. Quite a good observation. Yes, signals can tell the story, depending on what was seen or not seen in the field. False clears? Yeah, they happen as Zug has said. Heat distortion? And how many of you guys were told to hold the main instead of the siding? Too many unresolved circumstances to even begin to speculate. Also Zug, your spot on about the rule books now a days. The Law Department has far more say-so over them than Operating guys. Are you still pointing at switches???????? lol On this incident, I will wait for FRA, NTSB, UP to conclude gathering evidence. (hard evidence like event recorders and cameras - something one other mode of transport does not have, but should).
BaltACD mentioned sight-lines, distance, and relationships. Quite a good observation. Yes, signals can tell the story, depending on what was seen or not seen in the field. False clears? Yeah, they happen as Zug has said. Heat distortion? And how many of you guys were told to hold the main instead of the siding? Too many unresolved circumstances to even begin to speculate.
Also Zug, your spot on about the rule books now a days. The Law Department has far more say-so over them than Operating guys. Are you still pointing at switches???????? lol
On this incident, I will wait for FRA, NTSB, UP to conclude gathering evidence. (hard evidence like event recorders and cameras - something one other mode of transport does not have, but should).
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Hey, guys! I wonder if the linked slight curve was instrumental in the disaster.
A Slight Curve
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
RRKen BaltACD mentioned sight-lines, distance, and relationships. Quite a good observation. Yes, signals can tell the story, depending on what was seen or not seen in the field. False clears? Yeah, they happen as Zug has said. Heat distortion? And how many of you guys were told to hold the main instead of the siding? Too many unresolved circumstances to even begin to speculate. Also Zug, your spot on about the rule books now a days. The Law Department has far more say-so over them than Operating guys. Are you still pointing at switches???????? lol On this incident, I will wait for FRA, NTSB, UP to conclude gathering evidence. (hard evidence like event recorders and cameras - something one other mode of transport does not have, but should).
It seems rather clear to me that the westbound crew were aware of the situation as the conductor on that train jumped off the engine before the colision. I would be less certain of the eastbound crew. As I noted in my post above, the eastbound had gone one to two miles past the CTC controled siding that logically would have been the meet point for the two trains. Although very remote, it is possible that there was a signal failure. It is also possible that the dispatcher had not set up for a meet at the siding, however in that case both trains should have at least been looking signals calling for reduced speed. (Unlikely, but if both trains hit the block where the collision occured at the very same time, neither would have seen a restricted signal).
This leaves me to think that for some reason the eastbound crew had lost "situational awareness" at some time before the colision. If the eyewitness was correct in his observation that the eastbound was traveling at 68MPH-that could be fairly accurate if he was pacing the east bound-and was also correct that the eastbound was sounding the horn, that would indicate that the eastbound crew did not become aware of the situation until it was way too late to stop. (Horn sounding can be a panic reaction.)
As far as stopping at the sight of a headlight, that might work if both crews are alert, both know for certain that there are no sidings between the headlights, and if running at or close to a 70MPH track speed there is at least two miles between the trains giveing the distance needed to stop both trains.
I'll add that brake system failure on the eastbound is also remotely possible.
Ken We do have them and they are Not Tape Based they are GPS Based on any truck that is equipped with a Qualcom or any other Satalite System for Dispatching. They can tell when you Brake how fast your Going what Gear your in everything up to if you Fart it seems. Also the ECM is SSM and will survive about anything and be able to be Downloaded. There are fleets out there installing Cameras on them that equipped with a Hard Drive that stores the last 20 mins of driving done and 2 hours of sitting and it is stored in a Fireproof enclosure on the truck. We have more Data that survives than you think and it is all used to cover OUR BUTTS in Accidents.
I could imagine that it being summer time that the heat as it sometimes does, could have effected long distance sight. Kinof like when your driving along a long straight flat road and it looks like there is water ahead on the road and as you get closer you see there is not water on the road. The warm air does odd things to what you see on a hot day.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
My question is and we will probably never know the answer is if one of the trains missed the siding "Why didn't he stop and call the dispatcher, knowing that he was to meet another train at the siding even if he was to hold the main line and the other train was not at the meeting point?
edbenton So before passing Judgement on me remember this GR I have seen more out there that can Never be Explained D
So before passing Judgement on me remember this GR I have seen more out there that can Never be Explained D
Yet, you have no problem passing judgement on the dispatcher or train crews.
It's no wonder most of the railroaders left this board. This crap is getting old.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Flat may be a relative term. The tracks are generally on an ascent westbound, with some valleys where I would guess they cross rivers. Looking at the chart at about MP 482, which is about 1 3/4 miles (hard to be exact, could be a bit more or less) east of the east switch of Goodwell, there is a slight rise. Is it enough to momentarily hide a headlight? I don't know. We'll have to wait for the report.
I said earlier there are lots and lots of questions and few answers...especially now. We can wag and hypothocate and inject whatever but be nowhere near the answer(s) or spot on. But our speculation and theorizing and banter is nothing and means nothing.l UP, NTSB, and other authorities will work our the answers and the blame and what has to be done to prevent. Our argueing and name calling has nothing to do with what happened.
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GR Why when the Conductor saw the Other train coming at him then he NOT pull the Emergancy handle right by him and stop there is an Eyewitness that said BOTH trains were moving at Speed. Think about that. I also know enough that when you see something coming at you at High speed from dealing with Drunks on the INTERSTATES of this nation that are going the Wrong way at me that you DO NOT keep going you Stop and CLEAR OUT OF THE WAY.
The Terrian here is Flat the Tracks are Straight as an ARROW they had to have seen the Other Train coming at them Common Sense says STOP and get out of the cab to save your life if possible. But then again have you ever thrown your truck across the road to stop a Drunk from taking out a School Bus full of Kids coming back from a field Trip I DID in 99 put him into my Trailer Tandems and Stopped a guy with a BAC of .3 from hitting a Bus that was full of kids and maybe killing some of them. He lived and is now doing time. The things you see at 0230 in the morning in and around the Triad region of NC. Found out the Kids were on their way back from Disneyland to Philly they had 3 drivers to spilt the driving up on the way home.
So before passing Judgement on me remember this GR I have seen more out there that can Never be Explained Done more that saved lives have Multiple Familes that still send me Chirstmas Cards because I saved their Lives out there and if I ever make it back to Philly can get all the Free Cheese Steaks I want from any Place I want because of what I did that night.
I saved a family in WY one night from Freezing to death to this day they still send me a Chirstmas Card a Nurse in NV does the same because I was the Last person that Ever Spoke with her son and stayed with him til he DIED after he wrecked his Sports bike. 2 more Families in OH as I was their guide thru a Massive Lake Effect storm on I-90 one night til we got to a safe parking area with Food and shelter. One in MT that I saw the wreck happen was the first on the scene had my Dispatcher call for the Rescuse Units to my Location and kept her Neck Stable til they got there. If I had not done that and she had moved it like she wanted she would have been Paralized so Do not tell me I do not have a clue as to what might have happened in this case. Someone SCREWED the POOCH BIG TIME on this one.
Yes I said some harsh words yesterday but until YOU YOURSELF have been on this road seen how FLAT it is you have NO IDEA why I said what I did. This is one of those spots where you can Fire a .50 BMG round and it will not hit SQUAT until it hits the GROUND it is that flat.
edbenton I used to drive that way ALOT also when I was an OTR Driver when going between KC and LA was the Fastest way and man you are talking FLATTER THAN FLAT. Why I said the Dispatcher was Brain Dead on this was their SCREEN should have been SCREAMING COLLISION WARNING FOR MINS and they should have screamed ALL STOP NOW and stopped this. Sorry but when the Train missed the SIding he or She should have been Notified and could have STOPPED IT RIGHT THEN by Stopping BOTH TRAINS RIGHT THEN.
I used to drive that way ALOT also when I was an OTR Driver when going between KC and LA was the Fastest way and man you are talking FLATTER THAN FLAT. Why I said the Dispatcher was Brain Dead on this was their SCREEN should have been SCREAMING COLLISION WARNING FOR MINS and they should have screamed ALL STOP NOW and stopped this. Sorry but when the Train missed the SIding he or She should have been Notified and could have STOPPED IT RIGHT THEN by Stopping BOTH TRAINS RIGHT THEN.
So driving along side a stretch of track makes you an expert on what should have happened? You post something like this and have the nerve to call someone else brain dead....
People can speculate all day long but unless you were there you dont know what happened. I'd rather see the report when it all comes out.
My thoughts and prayers to all families involved in this....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
seppburgh2 Per MSNBC.COM, three crewmen are missing, conductor from one is unhurt. Here is the link with a picture: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite
Per MSNBC.COM, three crewmen are missing, conductor from one is unhurt. Here is the link with a picture: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite
Apparently, as seppburg2 has reported, the only survivor is the crewman from the Westbound (autoracks?) and the missing include the two crewmen on the Eastbound 'Stacker' as well as one ( the engineer?) of the crew on the Westbound. At least that was the report from a TV station here in Wichita (KAKE).
Whatever the circumstances are, regardless one has to have sympathies and prayers for the families of the missing crewmen.
Highly appropriate in these circumstance is Mudchicken's signature line :
"...Mudchicken: Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.."
EDIT TO ADD: While out walking this morning we saw what I would guess is a re-route from UP; on the EB BNSF T-con. A single UP engine on the head end, and two UP engines on DPU and many,many cans lettered for Pacer & Pacer Stack Train and quite a few CSX containers ( I think Pacer is a UP Customer?). It was about 0940 CDT when it came through here, between (Wellington and Mulvane).it appeared to be about 40/50 cars?). Don't know what direction they'll go out of Mulvane, whether through Wichita or Augusta to get to Topeka or what point they'll get back on UP.
I wonder if back in the era of steam it was easier to see other trains just by spotting their smoke?
jeaton Per the MSN article http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite the UP is advising that the collision happened about 2 miles east of Goodwell. The track chart shows a 9000 foot siding at Goodwell. The next passing siding to the east is about 20 miles away. Just a guess on my part, but I would think that in the circumstances the dispatcher would set the meet for Goodwell, with the eastbound intermodal being allowed to hold the main to minimize the delay on the eastward movement of that train. The eyewitness claimed that the westbound train was slowing down, but the east bound was still near track speed (70 per the chart). Even if the eyewitness was wrong about the actual speeds, he could be correct that the westbound was moving slower. According to the chart the spacing on the block signals are about two miles. It appears entriely possible that the last signal seen by the westbound was just an approach to reduce the speed in preparation for the next signal governing the diversion into the siding. That assumes that they are past the approach signal at the time the eastbound blows past the switch and positive stop signal at the east end of the Goodwell siding. At that point, the westbound has seen no restricted signal and there is nothing that could appear on the dispatchers screen to indicate an abnormal condition.
Per the MSN article http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite the UP is advising that the collision happened about 2 miles east of Goodwell. The track chart shows a 9000 foot siding at Goodwell. The next passing siding to the east is about 20 miles away. Just a guess on my part, but I would think that in the circumstances the dispatcher would set the meet for Goodwell, with the eastbound intermodal being allowed to hold the main to minimize the delay on the eastward movement of that train.
The eyewitness claimed that the westbound train was slowing down, but the east bound was still near track speed (70 per the chart). Even if the eyewitness was wrong about the actual speeds, he could be correct that the westbound was moving slower. According to the chart the spacing on the block signals are about two miles. It appears entriely possible that the last signal seen by the westbound was just an approach to reduce the speed in preparation for the next signal governing the diversion into the siding. That assumes that they are past the approach signal at the time the eastbound blows past the switch and positive stop signal at the east end of the Goodwell siding. At that point, the westbound has seen no restricted signal and there is nothing that could appear on the dispatchers screen to indicate an abnormal condition.
Makes sense, though the eastbound would need to slow to 40 if it were going through a turnout, not maintain the 70 track speed, unless the westbound ran several miles after splitting the switch.
68 MPH? In that heat? Need to check that against the TT (regardless what the track chart says)
[quote user="diningcar"]
mudchicken Discouraging. That country is a virtual milk-run with some undulation. J. A. Noble is looking down with tears from above. Ah yes muddy friend, Mr. Noble surveyed this area more than 100 years ago. I knew him in his last years as CE of the Western Lines. He and " Dolly' Shafer were two from the early days that I got to know. I worked with Dolly on the N M Division and hed was a very competent character a transitman.
Discouraging. That country is a virtual milk-run with some undulation. J. A. Noble is looking down with tears from above.
Ah yes muddy friend, Mr. Noble surveyed this area more than 100 years ago. I knew him in his last years as CE of the Western Lines. He and " Dolly' Shafer were two from the early days that I got to know. I worked with Dolly on the N M Division and hed was a very competent character a transitman.
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