The truck driver indicated that he didnt stop for nearly 350 miles until he reached Emporia, Ks.
Ok...he just witnessed a huge accident, yet didnt stop. Anyone else besides me wonder why?
The "unofficial" track chart website is fascinating. Do any others exist? It seems as if someone went to a whole lot of effort to provide "unofficial information", apparently for reference for trainmen.
So, has it been determined exactly where this occured? Was it between the siding or further east?Ed
One other thing, the NTSB says they are searching for cell phones to see if the crew were texting, which is not likely in my opinion, those guys weren't texting when they split a switch,or especially if they took a 30mph switch at 65, rolled down the siding and then split the east switch at 65, I am surprised the crew wasn't "alerted" by the units almost tipping over. Still don't know if they were to hold the main or take the siding.
henry6 CShaveRR: henry6: The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything. I suspect that anyone who gets off a train moving at 40 or better is not going to be in much condition to say anything for quite a while. I'm pretty sure they didn't get the mattresses out in time to cushion his landing.The photos I just saw show practically nothing left of the locomotives, and a large charred area. However he survived, he's one lucky individual. Even then, "lucky" might be debatable. He will be dogged with survivor's remorse and constant probing questions from everyone from investigators to the media. And he won't be able to add anything that couldn't be found out anyway from event recorders. The point is he is not going around blabbing. The media has not reached him for comment. The railroad is not letting him talk to the public. The police, NTSB, FRA,, etc. have not released anything about him other than name and that he was not seriously injured. He may be in shock; he may be sequestered; or he is smart enough to know he shouldn't say anything except to authorities. Oh, he could add a lot not found on the event recorders. Ok, truth is, I don't think technology failure had anything to do with this collision. That's just my opinion based on what I've heard and read.
CShaveRR: henry6: The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything. I suspect that anyone who gets off a train moving at 40 or better is not going to be in much condition to say anything for quite a while. I'm pretty sure they didn't get the mattresses out in time to cushion his landing.The photos I just saw show practically nothing left of the locomotives, and a large charred area. However he survived, he's one lucky individual. Even then, "lucky" might be debatable. He will be dogged with survivor's remorse and constant probing questions from everyone from investigators to the media. And he won't be able to add anything that couldn't be found out anyway from event recorders.
henry6: The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything.
I suspect that anyone who gets off a train moving at 40 or better is not going to be in much condition to say anything for quite a while. I'm pretty sure they didn't get the mattresses out in time to cushion his landing.The photos I just saw show practically nothing left of the locomotives, and a large charred area. However he survived, he's one lucky individual. Even then, "lucky" might be debatable. He will be dogged with survivor's remorse and constant probing questions from everyone from investigators to the media. And he won't be able to add anything that couldn't be found out anyway from event recorders.
The point is he is not going around blabbing. The media has not reached him for comment. The railroad is not letting him talk to the public. The police, NTSB, FRA,, etc. have not released anything about him other than name and that he was not seriously injured. He may be in shock; he may be sequestered; or he is smart enough to know he shouldn't say anything except to authorities. Oh, he could add a lot not found on the event recorders.
Ok, truth is, I don't think technology failure had anything to do with this collision. That's just my opinion based on what I've heard and read.
I believe the conductor who survived was on the westbound, which the truck driver witness said had slowed to a crawl, but the guy had quick reflexes to open the door behind the engineer, run down the gangway, bail off, and then clear the wreck when the opposing train couldn't have been a mile away (less than sixty seconds at 65mph for a a mile). I can only guess that the crew of the westbound had realized the eastbound would foul their main in advance and slowed down. It is a pity that the engineer didn't bail off also, but one can imagine him trying to alert the eastbound to what was about to happen.
CShaveRR henry6: The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything. I suspect that anyone who gets off a train moving at 40 or better is not going to be in much condition to say anything for quite a while. I'm pretty sure they didn't get the mattresses out in time to cushion his landing.The photos I just saw show practically nothing left of the locomotives, and a large charred area. However he survived, he's one lucky individual. Even then, "lucky" might be debatable. He will be dogged with survivor's remorse and constant probing questions from everyone from investigators to the media. And he won't be able to add anything that couldn't be found out anyway from event recorders.
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Reports indicate he only suffered cuts and bruises, so while he probably fell down when he jumped, his speed and the speed of the train was not so great that he was rendered unconscious. Appearantly, he was off the train far enough ahead of the collision point so he did not suffer further injury from the explosion and fire or being hit by the derailing cars.
Reports indicate that the event recorders were recovered from the DP units at the end of the train, but the condition of the recorders in the lead units is not yet known. It seems to me that he could provide at least a bit more to anything on an event recorder, such as just when he and the engineer realized that something was wrong.
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henry6The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything.
Carl
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The following links to some local articles referencing the Sunday UPRR head on, approximately, a mile East of the Goodwell, Ok. Community on Sunday June 24,2012 :
http://www.guymondailyherald.com/content/officials-id-fatalities-train-collision
As well as this, from the Monday Guymon Daily Herald .of Monday June 25,2012[quoted as a UTU acredited release]:
http://www.guymondailyherald.com/content/utu-member-among-3-dead-okla-head
These perspectives, and information might be of interest here.
The one survivor proves nothing. There are so many assumptions being made about this and there has been no official blurb about cause from anybody. The conductor survived but hasn't offered any public statements about anything.
I think it would be a good idea if a bit more data was transmitted to the DPU locomotive such as horn and bell use, this wouldn't involve much additional bandwidth. My reason for saying this is that it appears that the collision was so violent and then followed by an intense fire that the Data Recorders from the leading locomotives will provide little or no useful information. The Investigators are lucky that both trains had DPU locomotives.
Given that the conductor of the westbound train survived jumping off the engine with very minor injuries, I think it is clear that he and the engineer were aware of the impending collision and an attempt was being made to stop that train.
Per the most recent article linked above, it turns out that the eyewitness is a trucker who stated he was pacing the eastbound and I think that adds to the credability of his estimate the the train was running at 68 MPH at or near the point of the collision.
It has been reported that the signals were operating properly which indicates that the eastbound train should have been stopped or at the very least running something less than track speed. While the failure of the braking system is possible, it is hard to avoid the suspicion that the crew, for whatever reason, was not responding to the situation.
Judging by the location of the grade crossing visible in the various news media the location of the collision is put about 1/2 mile east of the ESS of Goodwell Siding.
Andrew Falconer Could the engineer in one train have become unconcious for any reason? Andrew
Could the engineer in one train have become unconcious for any reason?
Andrew
Two trains heading at each other at speed. Straight track, no obstructions or curves. Supposedly could see each other for miles. Two men in each locomotive cab supposedly operating the respective trains in accordance with warrents and other proper forms, timetable instructions, Book of Rules/Operating procedures, whatever UP says is the way to operate. Only one out of the four people aboard are unconscious you ask?
About visibility, just because you can see four to five miles in front of you doesn't mean that you can accurately judge the distance. I can remember waiting to board an inbound suburban train on the BN at Harlem Avenue and seeing a headlight in the distance to the west. The only time that I could be sure of how far away the train was came when the headlight was obscured where the line dipped when it crossed the Des Plaines River.
The latest Yahoo story says something about a misaligned switch.
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According to this AP story
http://news.yahoo.com/train-okla-collision-failed-side-track-025932846.html
it happened east of town, not between switches. It says one of the trains was supposed to take a siding but not which one or where. The witness now says that the eastbound was NOT using its whistle (before he said it was), so I am not sure of his voracity, but he says it held at 65 plus until the collision. Still too little to go on.
NP Red (6-25):
NP Red K. P. Harrier: Hey, guys! I wonder if the linked slight curve was instrumental in the disaster. A Slight Curve This is a little confusing because this link clearly shows a curve that would affect the line of sight but when I look at it on my regular google, it looks straight as a string. Both are from Google. What gives?
K. P. Harrier: Hey, guys! I wonder if the linked slight curve was instrumental in the disaster. A Slight Curve
Hey, guys! I wonder if the linked slight curve was instrumental in the disaster.
A Slight Curve
This is a little confusing because this link clearly shows a curve that would affect the line of sight but when I look at it on my regular google, it looks straight as a string. Both are from Google. What gives?
The "what gives" is that I was trying to reconcile what didn't make sense, and came up with something that itself doesn't make sense: The curve is in the next town over, towards the east. AFTER posting, I read the TRAINS Newswire on the matter, and thereafter everything came into perspective. It looks like it was the typical old wreck that happens over and over and over again.
Best,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
A level one heat restriction has no restrictions on freight trains averaging 90 tons or less per car/platform. Most stackers and autorack trains fall into this category. Freight trains averaging 90 tons or more per car/platform are restricted to 50 mph.
A level two heat restriction restricts freight trains averaging 90 tons per car/platform or less to 50 mph, those over 90 tons per car/platform to 40 mph.
To obtain the average ton per car/platform, take the total train tonnage and divide by the number of cars. In the case of multi platform cars, like a 5 pack stack car, count each platform as a car.
Jeff
Think of everything that has been said here about technical stuff, electronics, dispatchers, straight track, clear weather. Now think about two trains hitting straight on at speed. Nothing technical, nothing obsuring sight, no dispatcher standing there watching in the bushes. The first conclusion is simple. What got to that point is under discetion.
RRKen My heart goes out to those families involved. And the surviving Conductor and his family, it will not be easy, no one will blame you for stepping away for a while and grieving the huge loss you faced, and all that such an incident brings upon a man. Know your brothers from everywhere, offer their heartfelt condolences.
My heart goes out to those families involved. And the surviving Conductor and his family, it will not be easy, no one will blame you for stepping away for a while and grieving the huge loss you faced, and all that such an incident brings upon a man. Know your brothers from everywhere, offer their heartfelt condolences.
Same from here..you spoke well
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In regard to the comments about which train would take siding: this could have been dictated by the length of the trains involved. I'm assuming that at least one of the trains was short enough to fit.I find it highly unlikely that the wreck occurred within the siding area. At the end of the siding, the trains would have both had clear routes--one into the siding and the other holding the main. And, in that case, it would have been a sideswipe collision, not a head-on. They could not have both been lined for the same route, as the interlocking systems wouldn't allow that, and a failure of switches to throw, as mentioned above, would result in out-of-correspondence indications.Now, a question: if the westbound train was proceeding in accordance with the rules (ready to take the siding, I assume), and he saw, a few miles back, the headlight of the eastbound train, on a hot, sunny day, would he be able to tell conclusively, through the likely mirage effects, that the eastbound was still behind the switch? I'm pretty willing to bet that somewhere under that eastbound train was a trailed-through siding switch.(Jeff, maybe you can help me here: I can't find the definitions of a Level 1 and a Level 2 Heat restriction. Under a Level 1, the auto train would still be able to do 70, while the stacker would be limited to 50. Under a Level 2, the limits would be 50 and 40. I don't know what, if any, heat restrictions would be in effect.)
K. P. Harrier Hey, guys! I wonder if the linked slight curve was instrumental in the disaster. A Slight Curve
narig01 UP released names of crew members. This is the link to the Reuters report. http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/06/25/usa-trains-crash-idINL2E8HPF5D20120625 My condolonces & prayers for the survivor. Rgds IGN
UP released names of crew members. This is the link to the Reuters report.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/06/25/usa-trains-crash-idINL2E8HPF5D20120625
My condolonces & prayers for the survivor.
Rgds IGN
This is awful, my condolences to the families.
R.I.P. Railroaders
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beaulieu,
Thanks for that explanation. I can understand if people don’t want to speculate. So without actually jumping to any conclusions, is there one or more plausible explanations for how this collision happened based on what we know?
Rest in Peace brothers
Bucyrus But what if a switch was set for straight, and then activated to change to diverging, but stayed locked and aligned for straight. Would that leave the signal controlling its facing direction set for clear? I am just wondering if a switch that fails to throw or even unlock would then leave the signal clear, thus giving a clear signal where a meet was intended.
But what if a switch was set for straight, and then activated to change to diverging, but stayed locked and aligned for straight. Would that leave the signal controlling its facing direction set for clear? I am just wondering if a switch that fails to throw or even unlock would then leave the signal clear, thus giving a clear signal where a meet was intended.
If the Dispatcher requested a route into the siding and the switch fail to line into the siding all signals would go Red, the Dispatcher would get an Out of Correspondence message, and a Signal Maintainer would have to investigate before any train could pass.
BaltACD Bucyrus: If a diverging switch fails to throw, does that mean that the restricted signal indication that would be associated with that diverging switch would fail as well, and the signal would stay clear? In every signal system I have EVER had and dealings with - If the power switch does not LOCK in either the Normal (straight track) or Reverse (diverging) position you cannot get ANY signal to line across the switch and the Absolute Signals protecting the switch(es) would remain at STOP. There are a number of 'sensors' in a power switch that detect it's position and it's lock status.
Bucyrus: If a diverging switch fails to throw, does that mean that the restricted signal indication that would be associated with that diverging switch would fail as well, and the signal would stay clear?
If a diverging switch fails to throw, does that mean that the restricted signal indication that would be associated with that diverging switch would fail as well, and the signal would stay clear?
In every signal system I have EVER had and dealings with -
If the power switch does not LOCK in either the Normal (straight track) or Reverse (diverging) position you cannot get ANY signal to line across the switch and the Absolute Signals protecting the switch(es) would remain at STOP. There are a number of 'sensors' in a power switch that detect it's position and it's lock status.
There are separate detector contacts to determine which way the switch is actually lined. So if the link bar were to break and the switch motor moved through its complete cycle to throw the switch, the point detector would know that the switch blades hadn't moved, the circuitry would send an out of correspondence message back to the Dispatcher and all the signals would go Red. The same circuits detect a run-through switch
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