Excerpt from the the High Line blog, March 27, 2012
http://thehighline.org/blog/2012/03/27/next-big-idea-jeff-koons-train-at-the-high-line
As we continue to refine the initial design concepts for the rail yards section of the High Line, the design team is studying a range of options for the 10th Avenue Spur, with the objective to make it one of the major gathering spaces at the park.
We showed two initial design concepts for the Spur at a community input meeting on Monday, March 12, and we also wanted to share a potential art installation conceived by artist Jeff Koons that could work with either of them.
Excerpt from the High Line blog, March 13, 2012
http://www.thehighline.org/blog/2012/03/13/first-designs-for-the-high-line-at-the-rail-yards
The High Line extends across the intersection of 10th Avenue and West 30th Street to connect with the Morgan Processing and Distribution Center. Decades ago, this extension, called the 10th Avenue Spur, allowed freight trains to carry mail and packages to and from the upper-floor loading docks of the post office building. Today, the Spur is the widest area on the High Line, and it occupies a strategic position in the neighborhood, where it will serve as a visual access point to Hudson Yards, and offer visitors unique views along the north-south corridor of 10th Avenue and the east-west corridor of West 30th Street. One of the design concepts for the Spur features amphitheater-style seating, creating a unique opportunity for performances or casual gatherings.
View looking northeast at the intersection of West 30th Street and 10th Avenue.
One of several concepts for the 10th Avenue Spur consists of an open gathering space surrounded by dense plantings of wildflowers and grasses.
A couple questions:
Is this art project going ahead for sure? If so, when will it be complete and in place? How will the crane be executed in this artwork? Where will the base of the crane be? How tall will this artwork be to the top of the crane boom? Will the locomotive representation be full size?
Since the locomotive will have moving wheels, I assume it will also have moving rods and valve motion. That would require a motor and a power train of gears, chains, levers, etc. How much will this locomotive representation weigh? How will it be stabilized against wind movement while suspended from a crane cable?
In re-reading that article, I see that the locomotive will weigh several tons. I assume it will swing in the wind. It seems to me that a piece of this size will be quite a technical challenge to satisfy all of the safety concerns. I am guessing that the price will be a lot higher than $25-million.
steam2926 - Welcome to trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
The "artwork" is based on the 2926 AT&SF locomotive. The artist had a crew in Albuquerque, NM to scan the locomotive for accuracy in his reproduction. Originally the artwork was to be in Los Angeles. The 2926 is currently being restored. The $25M would restore the locomotive and have change left over. The website is nmslrhs.org Please visit our website.
In doing a little reading about the artist Jeff Koons, it is not surprising that he would conceptualize the hanging locomotive. The far bigger mystery is how he has come to be considered for creating art that will be displayed at, and identified with High Line Park. It may be private money that will pay for the art, but the venue is public and the public ought to have a say in the public art displayed there. Who makes that decision?
Jeff Koons: http://ikono.org/2012/04/the-jeff-koons-show/
Is this conversation pointless? No, I don't think it's pointless, I think very few conversations in the "Forum" are pointless. I think of the "Forum" as a modern-day version of rail guys and gals sitting around the pot-bellied stove in the station, drinking good strong coffee, maybe having some cigars and doughnuts and just slinging the bull about trains and railroading.
I sure wish we could do it for real, it'd be a thrill to meet you all in person, but for now this will have to do.
Although some people take some of this stuff WAY too seriously, I'll grant you that!
There is definitely some negativism involved in this art concept. It is almost as though the artist is not quite sure what he is about. Suspending the locomotive as though it is helpless and floundering is mocking the pride of the American industrial complex.
It is not surprising that an artist would do that. In fact, the higher the price of the art, the more I would expect it to distain traditional values. But what I find unusual is that the artist seems to have the obsession for detail accuracy that you would associate with a model railroader, and yet he chooses this snooty mocking theme of railroading for the centerpiece of a railroad themed public space.
Phoebe Vet This conversation is pointless.
This conversation is pointless.
It's all in good fun. I'd like to buy one art, please!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
This conversation is pointless. There is no definition of what constitutes art. There is a huge difference between what Robert Mapplethorpe thinks is art and what da Vinci thought was art, yet each one has his fans.
In my hometown the government paid a huge amount of money for a pile of rusty I-beams at the combined governmental center. I guarantee that if you had the exact same pile in your yard the code enforcement office would make you clean it up. You can see it at the base of the building.
Art is in the eye of the beholder.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Well we were all kind of needling the artist in that thread, and suddenly that guy burst through the door loaded for bear. What I found interesting is how much the artist is obsessed with accurately replicating all the tiny details of the locomotive, but then wants to hang it up like a fish. There is a principle in art that less is more. It is one of the hardest things for beginners to grasp.
Look, last I looked this was still the US of A. If you've got a ton of money, more than you know what to do with, and you want to spend it foolishly, nay stupidly, that's your right. It's ALSO everyone elses right to say you're nuts! I'm with Zugmann, someone doesn't take criticism well at all.
Awww..., somebody doesn't take criticism too well.
Too bad, so sad.
The following is two responses posted by somebody on the Narrow Gauge Discusssion Forum. Apparently this guy was defending the project because he is close to it or involved with it:
[Quote begins]
I'm on the way out the door - but I thought I'd chime in here for a second. You may want to watch what you say before you make posts like this. I have worked FOR YEARS on this project AND I read the NGDF. I'm a life-long "foamer" and am well aware of the plight of many of our favorite NG roads. As long as I worked on this effort, it was ALWAYS private money. A few very wealthy gentlemen in the Los Angeles area wanted to fund this. As such, given that it was their money - who are YOU to tell them not to spend it? The project stalled out over the last 18 months - the NYC developments are new to everyone on the team. That said, this engine is far from "Half …….. - I'd suggest keeping your mouth shut about other people's work unless you have actual facts. Jeff was insistent from the start that the engine be as accurate as possible. Most every appliance on the engine has been newly modeled in digital 3D using scans of existing parts (I believe from NM, TX and CA). There was a mandate at the outset that even details like the raised manf. stamp on a 3/4" bolt head be replicated. Will anyone ever see this? Nope. But Jeff is a stickler for details. Now - is this thing going to cost of a lot of money? Yup. Is it art? Depends on who you ask. (Would I spend my money on it? Not a chance. There are several 3-foot engines I'd place far higher on the list! Then again, that's the point isn't it? It's not my money.) Based on non-disclosures I know can't answer some of the technical questions I'm sure are going to be asked. The politics of funding for the arts aside I can tell as one railfan to another this engine (as a representation of a steam engine) will be far from half-……...
[The following is in response criticism about hanging the locomotive from the drawbar]
As I understand it (and this is where the "ART" part of all this comes in) the thought goes something like this... ...we are accusomted to seeing powerful and large steam engines speeding down the rails... forward. But what if an engine was held back... as if some giant hand had reached down from on high and, much like the comment about the mouse, plucked the engine from its rails. By hanging the engine from the draw bar - the intent is that the engine, will all of its power, yearns for the rails. That it is violently and sternly continues to fight its way back to the ground. Back to the land so that it can then "speed off" as it was intended to. Don't forget - this "sculpture" is active. I have forgotten the exact speed, but the wheels turn up to 40 or 50 mph! There is steam that is exhausted, the whistle works, etc... all of this happening in the sky - as patrons pass directly under the engine. I don't know about all the symbolic stuff - the engine, a symbol of power, fighting to regain its footing back on earth... but there is a kernel of coolness if you ask me in being able to stand directly under a steam engine as she shimmies and shakes, running gear a blur, only feet above your own head. (Not necessarily "rail fan" cool - but general cool) I dunno - somewhere out there are a few video interviews with Jeff talking about his vision and the above... he can do it far better justice than I can. Maybe someone can find them?
Hey, I've got an idea! Instead of that "locomotive on a hook" monstrosity suppose the artist does a fiberglass re-construction of that Gare Montparnasse' accident, you know, locomotive, tender, and first car sticking out of the side of a building? He can call it "Thank God it's Friday!" Everybody can relate to that!
JMJ, sure makes a lot more sense than that other concept!
"That'll do."
Excerpt from Scientific American (1895)
An extraordinary railway accident occurred at the Gare Montparnasse, Paris, at 4 P.M. on the afternoon of Tuesday, October 22. The train from Granville entered the station at a speed of 30 to 35 miles an hour and was not able to stop. The station has two stories, the train house being in the upper story. The engine and tender crashed through the wall at the end of the station and fell to the street (Place de Rennes) below, a distance of 30 feet. Thanks to the Westinghouse brakes, which were applied by the conductor, all of the railway carriages were saved from being precipitated into the street. The one hundred and twenty-three passengers were considerably shaken up, but were not otherwise injured. The engineer and fireman were thrown from the engine and were not seriously injured. The only fatality was the case of a newswoman, who was killed by a piece of stone from the wall. The engine narrowly escaped a horse car and three loaded omnibuses. Crowds lingered in front of the station for hours.
Inquiry was made into the cause of the disaster. The master machinists attributed it to the failure of the brakes to work. Engineers were forbidden to use the Westinghouse brake when entering terminal stations or stations provided with a bumper at the end of the rails, hand brakes being used for all ordinary purposes, the Westinghouse brake being reserved for emergencies. For our engraving, which was taken from a photograph, we are indebted to L'lllustration.
This was the intersection the Santa Fe loco is depicted to hang above. The footbridge connected the southwest and northeast corners. The 30th St. Station was to the right, diagonally across from (southeast of) the 30th St. Yard.
This was the view from the footbridge, looking northwest into the 30th St. Yard.
Whatever else it is, this is a picture of 10th Ave. looking north. The building to the right is the Morgan Post Office on the site of the old 30th St. Station where Abraham Lincoln arrived in 1861 and where his funeral train departed. Both of Lincoln's trains (and all trains until Grand Central Depot opened) had to cross the intersection the locomotive points down to, !0th Ave & West 30th St.
Excerpt from The Life and Public Services of Abraham Lincoln by Henry J. Raymond (1865)
At four o' clock, on the morning of the 24th of April, the funeral train took its departure for New York. Marching in solemn state through the crowds of people, which seemed to line the track all along the route, it reached Jersey City, opposite New York, and passed into the spacious depot, which had been clad in mourning, to the music of a funeral dirge, executed by a choir of seventy singers, and under the roar of heavy and loud artillery. The coffin was lifted from the car and borne on the shoulders of ten stalwart veterans, followed by a procession of conspicuous officials, marching to the music of "Rest in the Grave,'' sung by the choral societies, to the hearse prepared for its reception. Passing then to the ferry-boat, which at once crossed the river, the hearse, drawn by six gray horses, heavily draped in black, took its place in the procession, headed by General Dix and other officers, escorted by the Seventh Regiment, and the whole cortege moved, through densely-crowded streets and amidst the most impressive display of public and private grief, to the City Hall. At half-past eleven the head of the procession entered the Park, and while cannon thundered from every fort in and around the harbor, while church-bells from every spire pealed out the nation's sorrow, and while eight hundred choristers chanted the "Chorus of the Spirits'' and filled the charmed air with its sadly enchanting melody, the coffin was borne up the steps of the City Hall, and placed under the dome, draped, decorated, and dimly lighted, upon the plane prepared for its reception. The troops then retired; guards were stationed at the head of every stairway and sentries at every door. From this time five officers, relieved every two hours, kept immediate watch over the body, day and night. Soon the doors were opened, and entering, one by one, in proper order, the citizens of the great metropolis came to look upon the illustrious dead. All through that clay and the succeeding night the endless stream poured in, while outside the Park, Broadway, and the entire area of Printing-House Square, reaching up Chatham Street and East Broadway as far as the eye could see, a vast throng of people stood silent and hopeless, but still expectant, of a chance to enter and see the "body of the murdered President. Not less than one hundred and fifty thousand persons obtained admission, and not less than twice that number had waited for it in vain. At twenty minutes to twelve on the 25th, the doors were closed. The appointed pall-bearers took their place beside the cofiin, which at one o'clock was lifted and carried, to the tolling of the bell and the tap of the drum, out through the double line of the Seventh Regiment, and placed upon the funeral-car. Escorted by the finest military display ever seen in New York, and followed in procession by great numbers of her citizens, the car moved through the principal streets, in view of a vast concourse of people, to the depot of the Hudson River Railroad, at the corner of Thirtieth Street and Tenth Avenue. When the head of the procession reached the depot the column halted and faced to the west; and as the car bearing the body came up, the solemn strains of the military bands broke forth, the troops presented arms, the vast crowd kept the most profound and impressive silence, the coffin, with due ceremonies, was placed upon the railway-car, and at four o'clock, to the sound of a funeral dirge, the train took its departure.
Rix...check the Flat Wheel Cafe.
Quentin
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
"I'd like to buy one art, please!"
This proposal is insulting not only to the High Line, which is a fabulous example of reusing old industrial trackage and a great place for a Sunday afternoon stroll, but insulting to the whole railroad industry by suspending a phony engine like a fish at the end of a hook. Ridiculous!
Yet another reason to boycott NYC (as though I needed another).
ChuckAllen, TX
zugmann The crane represents that internal struggle between mankind of the industrial-revolutionary relationship complexities, and is a statement on the pseudo-realism of our metal-dependent lives. Actually, I have no clue - but I bet I could get some rich people to donate if I fed them the above BS line.
Actually, I have no clue - but I bet I could get some rich people to donate if I fed them the above BS line.
Split the $ with me, zug ?
Did I ever post my little series of rail-element-containing sculptures here in the Lehigh Valley ? There were 3, and today I saw a 4th (kind of - maybe mine-car-based instead ?), but no time to get a photo of it. Maybe someday soon . . .
- Paul North.
Caveat - I am a Native New Yorker, but I left.
Art? I think not. Symbolism? All wrong for the location. Price? Pre - bloody - posterous!
Note that the driving force seems to be a bunch of Angelinos. Maybe that's the reason for the locomotive that couldn't have reached those tracks on a multi-megabuck bet. (It would have fit the tunnels at the Hudson Narrows like a champagne cork.) If I was part of the New York power structure I would simply tell this artiste to start at the proposed site and walk directly west about half a mile.
(I don't remember any part of the High Line being that far from the bank of the Hudson...)
Some years ago I saw a thing on a street corner in Rancho Cordova, CA. It looked rather like a ruined coast defense gun mount. I was told that it was ART, put there in compliance with some local ordinance requiring something of aesthetic value among the simple rectangular industrial structures.
I guess art is in the eye of the beholder. So is scrap metal.
Chuck (ex - Noo Yawka)
The crane represents that internal struggle between mankind of the industrial-revolutionary relationship complexities, and is a statement on the pseudo-realism of our metal-dependent lives.
Well said - "+1".
Think of it as the ultimate "Hand of God" switcher in action. for $25 M how much you wanna bet i could get the hand to move up and down while holding it while the wheels are turning and steam is a puffing. The thing is that Hollywood has been making fiberglass steam engines for years and I can tell you for a fact they didnt need $25M to do them, can you imagin if it cost that much to make a fiberglass replica (whose wheels turned also) of the Hooterville Cannonball? I think that series would be over awefully fast! What about the engine they built for Hell On Wheels? Some methinks the actual costs of this installation is closer to $5M, with $20M going to a retirement account in the Camen Islands and some creative Max Byalistock accounting to ensure the installation appears to loses money and to outside eyes to have gone bust.
Have fun with your trains
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