Thank you Mr. Ames:
There has been some confusion surrounding the locomotive on display at the grand opening in Muncie. I am beginning to get a much clearer picture thanks to you and some of the other people who have responded to my inquiries.
I was raised near Detroit and studied art there back in the mid '60s. I can recall when rust belt cities were among the best places in the whole world to live. I find the serious financial and social difficulties that have eroded cities like Detroit, Flint, and yes, Muncie, et al. all very sad.
I don't blame the unions for the demise of the Midwest powerhouse, although they are not blameless. There were, and are, some serious holes in our understanding of how successful capitalism works. I honestly believe that successful capitalism delivers more than money to those at the top and to the stockholders. And I wonder about companies, like Caterpillar, that seem to have so little respect for their workers. (To put myself through school I worked in a number of automotive plants and to this day I have respect for the men and women who do can deliver quality work --- day in, day out --- while pumping out well made product as they work on the factory floor.)
RockinonAnd from the few responses that I have received, it is beginning to appear that the locomotive so proudly displayed at the Muncie plant opening was built, for the most part, in the London, Ontario facility. Why would they, Progress Rail, bother with such a subterfuge? Is there anyway to confirm where a locomotive was built? I've heard of something called a "trace"
And producing something like a SD70Ace requires more than flipping a switch. It's going to no doubt be a slow and gradual process before they ramp up to their full capabilities. Happens at any manufacturing plant, especially with something as complex as a modern locomotive. It happens and no doubt was expected that they were going to have some growing pains in the early days. Check out the history of Ford's massive Willow Run plant that they opened during WWII to produce B-24 heavy bombers for perhaps the most famous example of what we're talking about. It took quite sometime for things to start going smoothly and there were lots of difficulty and controversy (And maybe even a Congressional hearing, if I remember right) in the early months before it started to meet its potential. Yet by 1944, it was turning out 650 Liberators a month and eventually accounted for half of the over 18,000 B-24's produced (Which incidently is the most produced American combat aircraft in history and no doubt will remain as such for all time).
I don't really get the problen you think there is in regards to this plant. I can understand the negative feelings about what is going on in London and sympathize (Although I suspect they were glad to get the jobs that several hundred folks in LaGrange lost in the late 1980's), but just talking about the goings on down in Muncie from what I've been reading sounds like what they probably expected during the early months of operation.
.......And what's wrong with a twelve dollar haircut.....?
Quentin
If they're having difficulty in staffing the plant now when unemployment is just starting to come down from 10% then I'd say it's a money issue. I've read that wages are $12.50 an hour. That's great for a kid just starting out but not so good for someone skilled with 20 years on the job. They're offering $16.50 an hour in London... its just not market competitive. They may get some people for that, but the locomotives that come out of there will be like your 12 dollar haircut.
Very strange. I have absolutely no doubt that the skilled workers living in Muncie could build locomotives. Yet, it does appear that Progress Rail is having a difficult time staffing the plant. Possibly the pay is too low? And from the few responses that I have received, it is beginning to appear that the locomotive so proudly displayed at the Muncie plant opening was built, for the most part, in the London, Ontario facility.
....I'm in Muncie. At the celebration and open house {for the invited} photo in our paper showed the new engine inside, but I wondered {at the time}, how it could have been produced at the plant at this point...
I also noted it was setting on a section of track like it was just placed on the plant floor...Didn't understand what that was all about.
Just in the last day or so, we had a bit more info in our local Muncie paper....For any interested: It's...."thestarpress.com" You might be able to pull up some back copies and see articles.
Have seen in articles locally: Number of employees will take longer to be needed with reference to economic activity currently....But overall, it appears the economy {in general}, is improving now.
Also have seen figures of comparison of wages between the Canadian plant and the new start up operations here.
There are rails already right into the plant....That's one thing that made me wonder why that engine {pictued}, was setting on what looked like a section of track that was placed on the plant floor.
Very heavy power transformers were produced by this plant in the past, hence...the rails already inside the assembly area for those massive transformers, and it also has massive capacity rolling overhead cranes already in the plant.
Plant was built as a Westinghouse plant and later operated by ABB.
It is big enough to probably do what Progress Rail expects to do here.
I really have not heard nor read of any question the fact it will actually build product here. Just my
Phoebe Vet Pure unregulated capitalism in action.
Pure unregulated capitalism in action.
Union-busting at its best/worst.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Muncie is not the first place to be backlogged.Has anyone noticed that GE is building a new plant in Dallas area?
EMD London employees can comiserate with the Wichita Boeing employees
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57361398/jilted-by-boeing-wichita-workers-feel-duped/
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The paper reported,"They [Progress Rail Muncie plant] are behind schedule and there are some questions whether it will happen at all."
The paper, using The Economist as a source, also tells its readers, "Fewer than a quarter of the promised jobs [at the Muncie plant] have materialized, and not a single engine has rolled off the production line."
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/01/18/19263386.html
I have no doubt that the London plant is in danger of being closed. It is going to be a tough battle. Progress Rail has produced locomotives in Mexico with EMD name and is developing a plant in Brazil. Is it possible that if the jobs leave London, they may not go to Muncie but to Mexico and maybe Brazil?
Rockinon The London Free Press is reporting: Last October, Progress Rail had an open house at its Muncie plant, to herald its opening, with a locomotive on display. Only that locomotive was made in London and shipped to Muncie. "The majority of the work was done here -- they just put finishing touches on it there. I know they have had a hard time keeping people. You will not get a decent welders for the wages they are paying," said CAW head Tim Carrie. Is this true? Has the Muncie operation not produced even one locomotive? This is what is being reported by the London paper.
The London Free Press is reporting:
Last October, Progress Rail had an open house at its Muncie plant, to herald its opening, with a locomotive on display. Only that locomotive was made in London and shipped to Muncie.
"The majority of the work was done here -- they just put finishing touches on it there. I know they have had a hard time keeping people. You will not get a decent welders for the wages they are paying," said CAW head Tim Carrie.
Is this true? Has the Muncie operation not produced even one locomotive? This is what is being reported by the London paper.
Unless you left it off, your quotes are clearly talking about the locomotive they had on display during their open house to celebrate the opening of the plant. Those quotes don't say anything about them not having produced any locomotives since then (They clearly couldn't have a Muncie built SD70Ace to show off at a celebration to mark the opening of the plant).
Thanks!
Rockinon - Welcome to Trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
Well, hyperbole and inaccuracy abound when discussing China. People love to vent on how we're in hawk to China with all our debt when in reality, the vast majority of US debt is held by US citizens. China doesn't really hold that much.
But as last of the big red menace, they have to be an outsized player.
Just to clarify, Petro China already owned a majority stake in the operation they just bought the remaining interest in. Calling it a big wad is a bit misleading. They bought the remaining 40% of a project...a small project at that.....that hasn't even begun construction yet.
The majority of oilsands ownership is still Canadian, and will likely be for some time. Declaring it only a matter of time until the Chinese have it all, is, at best, laughable.
Actually, it was Stearman, one of the several forerunners of Boeing that was in Wichita. The jet airliners began in Washington in 1957.
Wichita has a long history of aircraft companies including Cessna, Lear, Mooney, Beechcraft, etc. It is a logical place to find subcontractors for any aviation company.
Listen, you can take your facts and ruin my point, or you can just go with the flow.
Seriously though, OK, they aren't jobs moved away from Seattle, the point still remains that they're moving the construction of those planes to a different union shop which certainly is a different scenario than the EMD one.
A Bloomberg news story I just read says Boeing has built planes in Wichita since 1929, so it doesn't sound like this was work "stolen" from Washington State.
But the Tanker work is being moved back to Washington right? Is that not what the article says?
Boeing's plants in Washington are Union shops too. And maybe you didn't know this, but more than a few people in the Seattle area would be offended by the notion that the "Air Capital" is anywhere else. They still grumble about Boeing moving corporate HQ to Chicago.
Those same people would tell you that Kansas Stole their jobs in the first place and so tough. They would argue that the jobs always belonged in Washington. Are they wrong?
One could make the same claim with regards to EMD. Most of those locomotives are destined for the US, is it not appropriate that the jobs move back to the US? The only insult here is the wages and CAT's tradition of strongarming Unions.
And in the world of BIG business this is a surprise? Although I had always figured Boeing to be a upstanding corporate citizen - guess I was wrong.
samfp1943 The Labor Contract was settled in 2011 for workers in the Boeing Operations in Wichita with an agreement that was of 9 years duration. Boeing has made many promises locally to State and Local Politicians and seems to be welching on labor and citizenry as well.
The Labor Contract was settled in 2011 for workers in the Boeing Operations in Wichita with an agreement that was of 9 years duration. Boeing has made many promises locally to State and Local Politicians and seems to be welching on labor and citizenry as well.
[quote user="samfp1943"]
This Thread is almost an historical read of how the interplay with Corporations and Unions play out. Posturing and Histrionics on both sides.
What edbenton related about CAT, and its Illinois Operations (sort of seems like the local political structure has its own death wish- (Tax til you drive out the Taxed, then try and back off- (?).
Wisconsin seems to be another adjunct to the power play between politics and labor, as well.
Here in the "Air Capitol" Boeing recently sealed an approximate 9 year term Contract with its Unions. Boeing has sold its manufacturing ops here to Spirit Aviation ( who also does work for other Aviation Corporations- read as Airbus Industries-). (Spirit has said they are moving some of their fabrication operations to Malaysia, From Tulsa)
There are rumors that Boeing is wanting out of this local Operation(Wichita). This has really stirred the local and State Politicians up as they have invested a lot of time, energy, and political capital in getting the new Air Force Tanker Contract landed for Kansas jobs. Now Boeing is wanting to build it in other plants(?)
Just sayin'. In a down economy there seems to be not only political brinksmanship playing but also the jobs seem to be being kept on strings like a yoyo. Keeping Society in a turmoil.
[/quote]
Here is a link to the whole story(s):
http://www.kake.com/aviation/headlines/Boeing_Calls_Meeting_For_All_Wichita_Employees_136605708.html
Well, Today: January 4,2012: Wichita was given the news that Boeing Corp was announcing that their Wichita Plant Operations would be Closed By the end of 2013.
The work on the new KC-46 Tanker aircraft would be shifted to the plants in Washington State. This was a real slap at the Kansas Congressional Delegation that has worked to land this work in the Wichita Plant. Not to mention the work that other elected officials( County & State ) have done to help land the work here in Wichita.
What has this got to do with a Railroad Forum, really not a whole lot, just that every 737, P-8A (Poisedon) rides out of Wichita's Spirit Air Systems Plant to Boeing on BNSF rails to their completion in Washington State?It was assumed that the new KC-46 fuselages would also, as well. It is left to wonder if Boeing leaves will Spirit Air Systems move to follow Boeing as well?
Here is part of a statement from the above linked article, which seems to be part CYA and smooze for the media:
FTA: "...The decision to close our Wichita facility was difficult but ultimately was based on a thorough study of the current and future market environment and our ability to remain competitive while meeting our customers' needs with the best and most affordable solutions," said Mark Bass, vice president and general manager for BDS' Maintenance, Modifications & Upgrades division. "We recognize how this will affect the lives of the highly skilled men and women who work here, so we will do everything possible to assist our employees, their families and our community through this difficult transition." At an afternoon news conference in Wichita, Bass said the Wichita facility was no longer cost effective. Bass said leaving the tanker work in Wichita would make it unaffordable for customers. Bass said 1100 to 1400 jobs will move to San Antonio and Oklahoma City. He said there will be some relocations and transfers, and some employees will be hired from the local markets. Bass told reporters Boeing remains committed to Kansas.." A seeming major portion of this seems to involve the issue of Right to Work States ( you can't help but notice the mention of moves to Oklahoma and Texas, as well. And this link: http://www.nrtw.org/en/blog/news-release-boeing-employees-hit-machinist-12282011
FTA: "...The decision to close our Wichita facility was difficult but ultimately was based on a thorough study of the current and future market environment and our ability to remain competitive while meeting our customers' needs with the best and most affordable solutions," said Mark Bass, vice president and general manager for BDS' Maintenance, Modifications & Upgrades division. "We recognize how this will affect the lives of the highly skilled men and women who work here, so we will do everything possible to assist our employees, their families and our community through this difficult transition."
At an afternoon news conference in Wichita, Bass said the Wichita facility was no longer cost effective. Bass said leaving the tanker work in Wichita would make it unaffordable for customers.
Bass said 1100 to 1400 jobs will move to San Antonio and Oklahoma City. He said there will be some relocations and transfers, and some employees will be hired from the local markets.
Bass told reporters Boeing remains committed to Kansas.."
A seeming major portion of this seems to involve the issue of Right to Work States ( you can't help but notice the mention of moves to Oklahoma and Texas, as well.
And this link: http://www.nrtw.org/en/blog/news-release-boeing-employees-hit-machinist-12282011
Illuminates some of the background shenanigans between Govt Officials and Union Managers(?)
I know it is a little off The Reservation, but illuminates how politics and unions and management interact.
The best protection is being good at your job and working for a company that values its employees by paying wages and offering benefits accordingly. There are plenty of those out there too. EMD's loss is going to be someone else's gain..skilled people are in short supply..
Look at how "they" -- business, politicians, et. al. -- have us sniping at each other and biting each other in the leg. A fool could have seen, 30 years ago, where this "free trade" was tending, to that well-remarked race to the bottom. Why did we sign up for it? That is the big question. Democrats conspired with Republicans.
My position always was: Our wealth would have bought us a lot of what they call "protection."
Anybody besides me wish we had done it?
1
cat992c So these companys are raking in all this money.Just is just how the system works.What business is that of yours?
So these companys are raking in all this money.Just is just how the system works.What business is that of yours?
That's fine as long as they aren't asking for taxpayer handouts.
But....
Nor do I like subsidizing their labor.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Thanks for the history lesson that I already knew.
Still doesn't change the fact that these companies are making record profits while they pay their employees dirt-poor wages. It's a race to the bottom.
But hey, we'll give these large companies tax breaks, while we give their employees public assistance. God bless America, eh? But hey, don't let me get in the way of your anti-union tirades. Everyone needs their own boogeyman, I guess.
Zugman 35 Years ago Streator IL on ITS OWN Produced MORE GLASS CONTAINERS than any other Country in the WORLD. We at one time had 3 PLANTS that employeed over 3500 people in this town. Then the Locals in the Unions got this Idea they were IRREPLACABLE and kept Demanding Higher and Higher Wages and for a while the companies gave in.
Then the First plant Shut down in the Early 80's. Then in 84 Owens Closed down 2 of their 4 Furnaces and tore them down. Then in 1990 the BIG SHOE Dropped. Anchor CLOSED their Plant here for a CHEAPER NON-UNION plant in IN that had half the labor costs and 1/4 the BENEFIT COSTS. that cost us 450 Direct JOBS. When Owens shut down the 2 furnacs it was not that big of a hit they did it thru Retirements. The other plant they closed thru retirements and Relocated the Employees. in less than 12 years we went from over 3K people to less than 500 people Employed.
This town Never recovered from the loss of so many High Paying Jobs. The Main Street in spots looks like Ghetto Row there are multiple Compaines that have failed that Supplied the Factories with vending and other goods. Put it to you this way the Largest Employeer now is the Local HOSPITAL that tell you something. In fact Owens is down to less than 300 Employees now this year our NEW Wal-Mart EMPLOYS MORE PEOPLE than the LARGEST FACTORY on a SQUARE FOOTAGE BASIS in this town.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.