Typical negotiation tactic.
I am not saying that Cat doesn't necessarily mean what they are saying - but these kinds of threats are routinely thrown into labor agreement negotiations. Only time will tell.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
There's really no great advantage to having a plant in Canada, and I'm sorry to say that as I'm a Canadian and this would be ANOTHER closure in addition to the many we've had over the last 10 years.
But looking at it from CAT's standpoint, the border is problematic for reasons we all understand...we have different currencies...we have different regulations... and only one of our two main railroads even buys from EMD these days. So if I were a CAT exec I would also be questioning the logic of a plant in Canada when a new plant in the US would score big points politically as well.
Progress Rail's original locomotive plant/ shop is also in the US, at Albertville, Alabama - see:
http://www.progressrail.com/products-locomotive.asp
And I thought they also had a loco shop in Georgia someplace ?
Progress Rail {EMD}, up and running new facilities here in Muncie, In...It is the former ABB heavy power transformer plant. Facilities appropriate for heavy product production. Well suited for railroad engine production.....Massive size plant....rails already right into the plant....90' plus high ceiling and very heavy concrete floors, etc....Very heavy duty overhead cranes in place....Plant surrounded by plenty of land.
Engines are already being produced. Progress Rail took over the plant roughly a year ago.
Quentin
When EMD ceased locomotive production at LaGrange in 1992 the exchange rate was 77 to 87 cents on the dollar, Loony vs. Greenback. Today they are practically at parity. Even with nationalized healthcare it is getting tough to justify leaving production in London. Canada has become a victim of its own success.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
What is the union status of the Muncie plant? If it is unionized, is it the same one as the London plant?
A few observations: The story in the London Free Press mentioned that the local head of the Canadian Auto Workers fears that Cat wants to move production to the United States, where labor costs are lower (!). Also, Cat management has a very long record of playing hardball when it comes to labor negotiations and has taken several long strikes in the past to make its point. The Canadians may not be ready for this kind of negotiating style.
Yes, Cat does play hardball with the unions. At their plant in York, Pa, near me he workers went on strike. Finally CAT gave them an offer which they accepted. As soon as the strike was over they closed the plant nd moved the production to Muncie, Idiana. All of the workers lost their jobs. They do NOT fool around with unions and the Canadian unons should take note of lthis if they want to keep working at the London, On plant.
Muncie plant unionized....? That I don't know the answer to. Just from the articles we've seen {locally}, I gather the wages are to be quite decent.
From all the data so far, I can't say if the workers are unionized. If I had to take a guess....I'd say it isn't currently...{only my guess}.
That question (union) may become moot. Indiana's legislature will, again in 2012, consider a "right-to-work" law whereby, you don't have to join the union to get the job. Last year a majority of Democrats fled the state to avoid the issue by denying a quorum needed to conduct the business of the state because they knew they didn't have enough votes to stop it. I can only assume CAT would be in favor of this law.
rrnut282 That question (union) may become moot. Indiana's legislature will, again in 2012, consider a "right-to-work" law whereby, you don't have to join the union to get the job. Last year a majority of Democrats fled the state to avoid the issue by denying a quorum needed to conduct the business of the state because they knew they didn't have enough votes to stop it. I can only assume CAT would be in favor of this law.
"Right to Work" doesn't mean you can't have a union. It just means union membership isn't required for employment. Iowa is one of those states, but many factories and meat processors (etc) have unions that represent the work force, even though not all employees eligible belong.
Jeff
The Muncie plant is not Union. And lets be clear here, the Muncie plant is a Progress rail plant doing contract work for EMD. The London Plant is an EMD plant. EMD is a Union Shop, Progress Rail is not. That's how the Muncie facility gets away without being Union.
Given EMD's current orders which are filling the lines at both plants, I can't imagine that there is a corporate interest in getting rid of London. At least not right now.
Also, CP just put in a huge huge huge order for ECO locos with EMD, so they are getting contracts with both Canadian roads.
YoHo1975 The Muncie plant is not Union. And lets be clear here, the Muncie plant is a Progress rail plant doing contract work for EMD. The London Plant is an EMD plant. EMD is a Union Shop, Progress Rail is not. That's how the Muncie facility gets away without being Union. Given EMD's current orders which are filling the lines at both plants, I can't imagine that there is a corporate interest in getting rid of London. At least not right now. Also, CP just put in a huge huge huge order for ECO locos with EMD, so they are getting contracts with both Canadian roads.
Run this by me one more time....
Progress Rail bought EMD but EMD is now contracting out work to its owner? Wasn't the London, ON facility included in the purchase of EMD by Progress Rail? (Progress Rail being owned by Caterpillar.)
EMD is a wholly owned subsidiary of Progress rail. They are a separate company which must abide by all of the agreements it made prior to purchase. Similarly, Caterpillar owns Progress rail which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Cat. Progress Rail does not need to abide by any of the commitments Caterpillar has made to it's unions.
Progress rail owns EMD which owns the London plant. Progress also owns the Muncie plant, but EMD does not. Therefore the EMD work at the Muncie plant is contract work performed by Progress on behalf of it's subsidiary. It's a sneaky way to get around a forced unionization.
It's also Standard Business Accounting.
Other Progress facilities have performed contract work for EMD as well.
All of the latest post seems correct to me as far as ownership is concerned....And...for many folks here in Muncie, we're pretty happy the facility is here, and business seems to be headed upward.
We've lost major auto parts mfg. plants in the past several decades, and this business is certainly welcome.
Most contemporary union contracts prohibit subcontracting or outsourcing "union work" ("bargaining unit work") to a non-union shop, provided that the union has the bargaining clout and sophistication to get that negotiated into the final signed contract. That should be equally effective for a subcontract upwards to the union shop's owner as much as for an outside 3rd party shop, unless that was a specifically negotiated exception.
On the other hand, if an independent 3rd party vendor supplies a partially-assembled component - even of fairly large size and scope - that may be viewed as just a large-item purchase, and not a subcontract. That may be equally true when the vendor is the parent company as well . . .
The result may turn on exactly what work is being done by whom, and the extent to which it is being done by a union workforce, as well as the present economic conditions and alternatives. If the parent company is now performing the same task that a non-union vendor has traditionally and previously done, and hence there's little or no capacity to bring it in-house, there's no point to 'grieving' (union complaining and perhaps striking) about it.
- Paul North.
Correct on ll ccounts. BUT if Catapillar through its Progress Rail subsidiary closes the EMD shop in London, Onterio and moves the work to Muncie, there is nothing that the union can do about it. As I stated earlier, that is what they did in York, Pa.
In labor relations, plant closure is viewed as the equivalent of 'industrial suicide'. The rationale is that's such a drastic move and essentially ends the company's operations there, so that it must be for serious, irreversible, and unchangeable business/ financial reasons, and not merely a bargaining tactic. Said another way, the actions speak louder than the words. The NLRB and courts usually take a 'hands-off' position on that action as a management prerogative, and do not view that as an unfair labor practice - unless the union has negotiated a non-closure provision, that is.
Paul,
What you say is true, but Canada is a Foreign Country especially as to labor laws.
Mac
The people of Indiana especially Govenor Mitch Daniels would welcome the new business in Muncie.All of Caterpillar big engines are made across the state in Lafayette.Cat means business when it come to trains.THey just invested close to 9 billion to get Bucyrus's mining equipment business to give their customers product they have been asking for.
Remember the NLRB stopping Boeing at their South Carolina plant from building the 787 jet.
ccltrains Remember the NLRB stopping Boeing at their South Carolina plant from building the 787 jet.
No they didn't:
http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/12/23/2565642/air-india-to-get-first-sc-787.html
Didn't Fox News report that?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Actually at First teh NLRB was Stopping Boeing from Opening the Opening of the Second 787 Plant. However it was when the IAM agreed to the NEW contrtact that contained Language that states the NEW 737 Line will be in a IAM Represented Plant they Agreed to DROP THE CASE. So how is the NLRB NOT BEING BIASED IN THE CASE when they only dropped the case AFTER BOEING was FORCED to neogotiate from a postion of Weakness to agree to let the IAM dictate where the Best Selling Plane of ALL TIMES be Assembled.
Without a complainant they have nothing to conduct a hearing about. When the IAM was bought off the NLRB could not act.
That is exactly the way it is supposed to work. The union made a complaint. The NLRB began an investigation to see if the complaint had Merritt. Boeing and the union came to terms and the complaint was withdrawn. The investigation was, therefor, moot.
That is NOT the same as "the NLRB stopping Boeing from building the aircraft" there. You do not know what the outcome of the investigation would have been.
It's really disappointing that union-busting has become an acceptable management tactic, often with the encouragement of state and local governments.
There have been too many companies that have gone bust because of the greedy unions. They were good in their day, but now with all of the labor laws they ar superfluous. They should be made to act like they do with the federal government. You CANNOT STRIKE. You CAN and should look after your members interests, BUT when a company says this is our offer your take it or the old labor contract stays in effect for the lenth of its term (say a 3 yer contract), then you can negoritate again. Compnies have the absolute right to close plants if they wish, that is a management decision.
gsrrman There have been too many companies that have gone bust because of the greedy unions. They were good in their day, but now with all of the labor laws they ar superfluous. They should be made to act like they do with the federal government. You CANNOT STRIKE. You CAN and should look after your members interests, BUT when a company says this is our offer your take it or the old labor contract stays in effect for the lenth of its term (say a 3 yer contract), then you can negoritate again. Compnies have the absolute right to close plants if they wish, that is a management decision.
In a race to the bottom, who wins?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
In this case I'd say CAT does. Striking is a legitimate bargaining tool although of limited value when the employer can simply respond by shutting the plant down or moving it . CAT is a large multinational that has the wherewithal and the bucks to relocate plants as it sees fit. The employees in London don't have that many options in terms of good paying manufacturing jobs, and I'm sure CAT knows that and bargains accordingly.
Those guys from CAT do not screw around: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/12/28/19174916.html
$16.50 an hour is a lousy wage up here. I doubt they will accept that but who knows. My guess is that CAT has already made up its mind to move the plant and this last offer (if the article is in fact correct) is simply posturing.
That wage offer is only 5.00 above minmum wage so most of the skilled workers can get other jobs even if they have to move. Some companies are just anti union period. USS Steel locked out the best quality steel plant in the world until Toyota said they didn't want the poor quality product from Gary Indiana anymore. Didn't meet the specs for Toyota. Lockout and/or close London and it appears Cat can't meet its order demands , but that does not mean they will not play hardball. The CAW also needs to be aware of the "buy American frenzy" that plays well at home even if it doesn't make economic sense. Large unions have economic depts ,same as the companies, so everyone is ready to bluff thinking the other guy has no clue . No reasonable union wants its employer to be at an economic disadvantage against its competion .If London closes it will because of US politics, Indiana is a swing state and targeted by both parties.
Don't be so Sure CAT could not meet demand by closing London. One they could Expand Production at MPI easily 2 they have other Progress Plant scattered all around the Nation 3 CAT themselves wants to Break teh UAW here in the USA why did they give the UAW all they wanted in the last Contract however the UAW had to allow CAT if they wanted to MOVE ANY and ALL Facilaties here in the USA to other States in the USA without Complaints Failure to do so and CAT was Prepared for one HELL OF A STRIKE LAST YEAR and This YEAR. Why do I know this A member of my Reef Club that was teh Second in Command of the CAT Parts Warehouse in Morton IL well She was Transferred to SC why to setup a NEW one 4X the size that can handle all the needs of CAT in the Nation and also is going to be the ONLY one in teh USA. She also got a Promotion to Head of Logistics of CAT NA Production.
She told us at teh Reef Club that CAT will be out of the Stateof IL in less than 5 Years teh Length of the Current UAW Contract and they are building new plants in SC GA and NC that will blow away anything Kumautso has here in the USA.
The union just voted to strike so CAT doesn't have to be bothered with locking them out. This is probably then end of production in Canada.
I am sure that Muncie will welcome them with open arms if the plant north of the border is closed
....That certainly would be correct...!
Harley Davidson just used the same tactics with their York, PA and Kansas City plants. They told the York plant that they wanted major concessions and a major head count reduction, or they would move the plant to KC. The union eventually gave in after a few months. A few months later, the contract was up for the KC plant, and they told them that if they did not take the wage and head count cuts, they would move the plant to York. Union busting at its finest. But here is the catch...after eliminating several hundred jobs at York, and replacing them with "contract" on-demand help...management has gotten burned and begun to rehire some of the permanent positions again.
Meanwhile, assemblies that were formerly done stateside (like wiring harnesses) are being done south of the border...and low and behold, they are now having quality problems with an assembly that they never had quality problems with before when it was done stateside. And another follow up...the old CAT plant that is about a mile from the H-D plant is now mainly warehousing for other businesses. Those jobs are more then likely paying half the wage CAT was paying before the strike.
Odie Meanwhile, assemblies that were formerly done stateside (like wiring harnesses) are being done south of the border...and low and behold, they are now having quality problems with an assembly that they never had quality problems with before when it was done stateside.
Meanwhile, assemblies that were formerly done stateside (like wiring harnesses) are being done south of the border...and low and behold, they are now having quality problems with an assembly that they never had quality problems with before when it was done stateside.
Bingo. You get what you pay for. Everyone says it...everyone knows it...yet some persist in believing that little bit of wisdom doesn't apply to them.
Getting what you pay for?
It's very often true, but does anyone seriously think that North America's Big Three automakers were getting what they paid for, over the last 40-50 years?
Saw a clip on the NBC evening news -
Indian company sending boiler room call center jobs to the US because the wage structure is lower in the US than it currently is in India.
I guess we have sunk to a 3rd world economy.
BaltACD Saw a clip on the NBC evening news - Indian company sending boiler room call center jobs to the US because the wage structure is lower in the US than it currently is in India. I guess we have sunk to a 3rd world economy.
Sometimes, I think that has been the plan all along.
I saw the same news clip.
garyla Getting what you pay for? It's very often true, but does anyone seriously think that North America's Big Three automakers were getting what they paid for, over the last 40-50 years?
Not over the last 40 or 50...but probably over the last 20. Car quality has improved substantially over the last couple of decades and the auto makers up here have kept pace. Yes, the quality wasn't there 40 or 50 years ago, but neither was it there for the foreign auto makers.
Getting back to the EMD situation, CAT was supposedly to employ 900 workers in Muncie by October yet the local press reports at most 180 work there now. Apparently CAT is having diffculty recruiting cheap skilled labor there...and hopefully they will give that some thought before they do too much slashing in London. If they can't find skilled workers for 12.50 an hour now then they most certainly won't find them when the economy picks up. They (and others) may think they have labor over a barrel but there's a shortage of skilled trades people which is about to get alot worse. Who would want to go into the trades or work in a factory at those wages..forget it...get a degree in art history instead...
....Local report had posted they expected to employ 650 folks by the end of 2012, but now I believe the figure stated {today}, will be more like 250.
Perhaps they will have to catch up like many businesses will when the economy actually really does get up "steam" to move on.....Let's hope so.
Workers in London are locked out now. They say the outcome of this one will set the tone for the negotiations within the auto sector that are coming up later this year. Hopefully everyone involved is open to some compromise. Best scenario of all...the economy picks up and London and Muncie work to capacity.
Cat in the Early 90's when I was 18 locked out the UAW here in the USA for 18 MONTHS the UAW Broke and GAVE CAT what they wanted then when 50-60% of their Members were CROSSING THE PICKET LINES to feed their Familes. That tell you something. CAT will keep the workers out til HELL FREEZES Over if needed without loosing Production they will do what is needed to fill orders and keep the lines moving so the CAW is SCREWED.
This Thread is almost an histoical read of how the interplay with Corporation and Unions play out. Posturing and Histrionics on both sides.
What edbenton related about CAT, and its Illinois Operations (sort of seems like the local political structure has its own death wish- Tax til you drive out the Taxed, then try and back off- (?).
Wisconsin seems to be another adjunct to the power play between politics and labor, as well.
Here in the "Air Capitol" Boeing recently sealed an approximate 9 year term Contract with its Unions. Boeing has sold its manufacturing ops here to Spirit Aviation ( who also does work for other Aviation Corporations- read as Airbus Industries-). (Spirit has said they are moving some of their fabrication operations to Malaysia, From Tulsa)
There are rumors that Boeing is wanting out of this local Operation(Wichita). This has really stirred the local and State Politicians up as they have invested a lot of time, energy, and political capital in getting the new Air Force Tanker Contract landed for Kansas jobs. Now Boeing is wanting to build it in other plants(?)
Just sayin'. In a down economy there seems to be not only political brinksmanship playing but also the jobs seem to be being kept on strings like a yoyo. Keeping Society in a turmoil.
Which is why we see protest movements like Occupy gaining momentum. A 50% pay cut may be cutting too deep when the top brass aren't doing the same.
Seeing that Cat hasalready fenced off the property and is moving trucks in to presumably relocate components...I'd say they mean business...
Today they are out picketing in a blizzard, the contract was turned down as it was a year ago, they want wages cut in half and no pension or benefits, they want wages down to $65,000 a year, just what were they making prior to this figure? Get ready for new jobs in the U.S. as they are on their way down.
%65,000 is alot of money to tell you the truth.The Muncie plant stands ready & open.Lets get more equipment made in America.
tatans Today they are out picketing in a blizzard, the contract was turned down as it was a year ago, they want wages cut in half and no pension or benefits, they want wages down to $65,000 a year, just what were they making prior to this figure? Get ready for new jobs in the U.S. as they are on their way down.
At $12.50 an hour you must mean new McJobs...They want wages down from $35.00 an hour (about $72000 a year) to $16.50 an hour. And no blizzard...just a little bit of snow that's all.
Minumum wage here in Pennsylvania is $7.25 and a lot of perple are working at that rate, so $16.50 is a good pay scale.
gsrrman Minumum wage here in Pennsylvania is $7.25 and a lot of perple are working at that rate, so $16.50 is a good pay scale.
You think they are going to pay the US workers 16.50? Keep dreaming.
Very good indeed
If you think $16.50 is a good payrate for this kind of work, you're nuts.
And Cat will get burned if they move everything down to the US. None of the US facilities can handle the orders. The non-muncie facilities aren't capable of building SD70ACes
I'm all for moving EMD production back to the states, but if they think they can do this, that means lower orders in my mind.
No. That is a terrible pay scale. Do you know what these people do?
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
The median income for men working full time in the United States was $45,113 in 2007.
The median income for women working full time in the United States was $35,102 in 2007.
That was before the economy crashed...
There are 3 Union Plants here in my town a Federal Sgnal Plant that Makes the Vactor Vacucum Sewer Cleaners you see around Towns a Glass Plant and a Specialty Foundry for teh Nuclear Power Industry they make the Fuel Rod Holders for the US Navy. Guess Which Place pays the Highest the US Goverment Contractor. Vactor a Top of the line Welder with 25 Years tops out at 20 Bucks an Hour there the Glass Plant a Master Machinist is only at 25 an hour. A Master Plumber around here is lucky to get 30 an hour on his OWN. The CAW is demanding for those wages 36 an hour PLUS BENEFITS. That is 2X what the UAW workers get at CAT here in the USA Guess what IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN TIL HELL FREEZES OVER.
London is probably a lost cause, but you can't blame them for trying. A 50% take it or leave it pay cut is tantamount to a hard kick in the privates...I wouldn't just roll over for that either.. But you're right...$35 per hour is probably history at the London plant. If the plant does close some of these workers will probably relocate to Alberta or Northern Quebec where wages are often $50.00/hr and up for skilled labor. Looks as if we're going back to becoming hewers of wood and carriers of water here in Canada ...but we look at the bright side...we're resource rich, and mining, timber, and oil field jobs are also skilled labor, they pay very well, and they can't be exported.
One wonders how it happened originally ... and how anyone could afford to buy the London product.
EMD moved to London in part because the GM UAW contract labor costs in La Grange put them at a big disadvantage with GE whose labor rates for Machinists and Electricians were much lower.
It didn't really do the job....GE took a big share of the locomotive market away from EMD, primarily for two reasons. One, GE got their act together and started building good locomotives. Two, COST!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Also the Canadian dollar has strengthened considerably against the US greenback over the last three years, and that has made a big difference as well. London has been building locomotives since 1950. EMD in London built for the Canadian market primarily, while La Grange built locomotives for the US market.
GE has become much more competitive over the last 30 years. I read somewhere that they now build twice as many locomotives a year than they did back in 1980, with half the workforce. Understandably EMD needs to make changes in order to remain competitive. Is cutting wages by 50% in London the way to go about it? I don't think it is, but they run a global Fortune 100 company so they must know what they're doing. Plants can be moved around to take best advantage of low wages, tax incentives, and laxer environmental regulations... that's the reality of globalization.
Hewers of wood and sellers of tar sands Petro China just snapped up a big wad of Athabasca oil sands and just a matter of time till they have it all, what else is knew Canada? ? , Keep your eye on CP RAIL and see what's in store for the future.
Life is good over here, thanks for asking. Plants come..plants go. We adapt, survive and prosper.
edbenton There are 3 Union Plants here in my town a Federal Sgnal Plant that Makes the Vactor Vacucum Sewer Cleaners you see around Towns a Glass Plant and a Specialty Foundry for teh Nuclear Power Industry they make the Fuel Rod Holders for the US Navy. Guess Which Place pays the Highest the US Goverment Contractor. Vactor a Top of the line Welder with 25 Years tops out at 20 Bucks an Hour there the Glass Plant a Master Machinist is only at 25 an hour. A Master Plumber around here is lucky to get 30 an hour on his OWN. The CAW is demanding for those wages 36 an hour PLUS BENEFITS. That is 2X what the UAW workers get at CAT here in the USA Guess what IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN TIL HELL FREEZES OVER.
Ed, you can't reasonably compare wages from one state to another, lest one country to another.
Zugman 35 Years ago Streator IL on ITS OWN Produced MORE GLASS CONTAINERS than any other Country in the WORLD. We at one time had 3 PLANTS that employeed over 3500 people in this town. Then the Locals in the Unions got this Idea they were IRREPLACABLE and kept Demanding Higher and Higher Wages and for a while the companies gave in.
Then the First plant Shut down in the Early 80's. Then in 84 Owens Closed down 2 of their 4 Furnaces and tore them down. Then in 1990 the BIG SHOE Dropped. Anchor CLOSED their Plant here for a CHEAPER NON-UNION plant in IN that had half the labor costs and 1/4 the BENEFIT COSTS. that cost us 450 Direct JOBS. When Owens shut down the 2 furnacs it was not that big of a hit they did it thru Retirements. The other plant they closed thru retirements and Relocated the Employees. in less than 12 years we went from over 3K people to less than 500 people Employed.
This town Never recovered from the loss of so many High Paying Jobs. The Main Street in spots looks like Ghetto Row there are multiple Compaines that have failed that Supplied the Factories with vending and other goods. Put it to you this way the Largest Employeer now is the Local HOSPITAL that tell you something. In fact Owens is down to less than 300 Employees now this year our NEW Wal-Mart EMPLOYS MORE PEOPLE than the LARGEST FACTORY on a SQUARE FOOTAGE BASIS in this town.
Thanks for the history lesson that I already knew.
Still doesn't change the fact that these companies are making record profits while they pay their employees dirt-poor wages. It's a race to the bottom.
But hey, we'll give these large companies tax breaks, while we give their employees public assistance. God bless America, eh? But hey, don't let me get in the way of your anti-union tirades. Everyone needs their own boogeyman, I guess.
So these companys are raking in all this money.Just is just how the system works.What business is that of yours?
cat992c So these companys are raking in all this money.Just is just how the system works.What business is that of yours?
That's fine as long as they aren't asking for taxpayer handouts.
But....
Nor do I like subsidizing their labor.
1
Look at how "they" -- business, politicians, et. al. -- have us sniping at each other and biting each other in the leg. A fool could have seen, 30 years ago, where this "free trade" was tending, to that well-remarked race to the bottom. Why did we sign up for it? That is the big question. Democrats conspired with Republicans.
My position always was: Our wealth would have bought us a lot of what they call "protection."
Anybody besides me wish we had done it?
The best protection is being good at your job and working for a company that values its employees by paying wages and offering benefits accordingly. There are plenty of those out there too. EMD's loss is going to be someone else's gain..skilled people are in short supply..
[quote user="samfp1943"]
This Thread is almost an historical read of how the interplay with Corporations and Unions play out. Posturing and Histrionics on both sides.
What edbenton related about CAT, and its Illinois Operations (sort of seems like the local political structure has its own death wish- (Tax til you drive out the Taxed, then try and back off- (?).
[/quote]
Here is a link to the whole story(s):
http://www.kake.com/aviation/headlines/Boeing_Calls_Meeting_For_All_Wichita_Employees_136605708.html
Well, Today: January 4,2012: Wichita was given the news that Boeing Corp was announcing that their Wichita Plant Operations would be Closed By the end of 2013.
The work on the new KC-46 Tanker aircraft would be shifted to the plants in Washington State. This was a real slap at the Kansas Congressional Delegation that has worked to land this work in the Wichita Plant. Not to mention the work that other elected officials( County & State ) have done to help land the work here in Wichita.
What has this got to do with a Railroad Forum, really not a whole lot, just that every 737, P-8A (Poisedon) rides out of Wichita's Spirit Air Systems Plant to Boeing on BNSF rails to their completion in Washington State?It was assumed that the new KC-46 fuselages would also, as well. It is left to wonder if Boeing leaves will Spirit Air Systems move to follow Boeing as well?
The Labor Contract was settled in 2011 for workers in the Boeing Operations in Wichita with an agreement that was of 9 years duration. Boeing has made many promises locally to State and Local Politicians and seems to be welching on labor and citizenry as well.
Here is part of a statement from the above linked article, which seems to be part CYA and smooze for the media:
FTA: "...The decision to close our Wichita facility was difficult but ultimately was based on a thorough study of the current and future market environment and our ability to remain competitive while meeting our customers' needs with the best and most affordable solutions," said Mark Bass, vice president and general manager for BDS' Maintenance, Modifications & Upgrades division. "We recognize how this will affect the lives of the highly skilled men and women who work here, so we will do everything possible to assist our employees, their families and our community through this difficult transition." At an afternoon news conference in Wichita, Bass said the Wichita facility was no longer cost effective. Bass said leaving the tanker work in Wichita would make it unaffordable for customers. Bass said 1100 to 1400 jobs will move to San Antonio and Oklahoma City. He said there will be some relocations and transfers, and some employees will be hired from the local markets. Bass told reporters Boeing remains committed to Kansas.." A seeming major portion of this seems to involve the issue of Right to Work States ( you can't help but notice the mention of moves to Oklahoma and Texas, as well. And this link: http://www.nrtw.org/en/blog/news-release-boeing-employees-hit-machinist-12282011
FTA: "...The decision to close our Wichita facility was difficult but ultimately was based on a thorough study of the current and future market environment and our ability to remain competitive while meeting our customers' needs with the best and most affordable solutions," said Mark Bass, vice president and general manager for BDS' Maintenance, Modifications & Upgrades division. "We recognize how this will affect the lives of the highly skilled men and women who work here, so we will do everything possible to assist our employees, their families and our community through this difficult transition."
At an afternoon news conference in Wichita, Bass said the Wichita facility was no longer cost effective. Bass said leaving the tanker work in Wichita would make it unaffordable for customers.
Bass said 1100 to 1400 jobs will move to San Antonio and Oklahoma City. He said there will be some relocations and transfers, and some employees will be hired from the local markets.
Bass told reporters Boeing remains committed to Kansas.."
A seeming major portion of this seems to involve the issue of Right to Work States ( you can't help but notice the mention of moves to Oklahoma and Texas, as well.
And this link: http://www.nrtw.org/en/blog/news-release-boeing-employees-hit-machinist-12282011
Illuminates some of the background shenanigans between Govt Officials and Union Managers(?)
I know it is a little off The Reservation, but illuminates how politics and unions and management interact.
And in the world of BIG business this is a surprise? Although I had always figured Boeing to be a upstanding corporate citizen - guess I was wrong.
samfp1943 The Labor Contract was settled in 2011 for workers in the Boeing Operations in Wichita with an agreement that was of 9 years duration. Boeing has made many promises locally to State and Local Politicians and seems to be welching on labor and citizenry as well.
But the Tanker work is being moved back to Washington right? Is that not what the article says?
Boeing's plants in Washington are Union shops too. And maybe you didn't know this, but more than a few people in the Seattle area would be offended by the notion that the "Air Capital" is anywhere else. They still grumble about Boeing moving corporate HQ to Chicago.
Those same people would tell you that Kansas Stole their jobs in the first place and so tough. They would argue that the jobs always belonged in Washington. Are they wrong?
One could make the same claim with regards to EMD. Most of those locomotives are destined for the US, is it not appropriate that the jobs move back to the US? The only insult here is the wages and CAT's tradition of strongarming Unions.
A Bloomberg news story I just read says Boeing has built planes in Wichita since 1929, so it doesn't sound like this was work "stolen" from Washington State.
Listen, you can take your facts and ruin my point, or you can just go with the flow.
Seriously though, OK, they aren't jobs moved away from Seattle, the point still remains that they're moving the construction of those planes to a different union shop which certainly is a different scenario than the EMD one.
Actually, it was Stearman, one of the several forerunners of Boeing that was in Wichita. The jet airliners began in Washington in 1957.
Wichita has a long history of aircraft companies including Cessna, Lear, Mooney, Beechcraft, etc. It is a logical place to find subcontractors for any aviation company.
Just to clarify, Petro China already owned a majority stake in the operation they just bought the remaining interest in. Calling it a big wad is a bit misleading. They bought the remaining 40% of a project...a small project at that.....that hasn't even begun construction yet.
The majority of oilsands ownership is still Canadian, and will likely be for some time. Declaring it only a matter of time until the Chinese have it all, is, at best, laughable.
Well, hyperbole and inaccuracy abound when discussing China. People love to vent on how we're in hawk to China with all our debt when in reality, the vast majority of US debt is held by US citizens. China doesn't really hold that much.
But as last of the big red menace, they have to be an outsized player.
The London Free Press is reporting:
Last October, Progress Rail had an open house at its Muncie plant, to herald its opening, with a locomotive on display. Only that locomotive was made in London and shipped to Muncie.
"The majority of the work was done here -- they just put finishing touches on it there. I know they have had a hard time keeping people. You will not get a decent welders for the wages they are paying," said CAW head Tim Carrie.
Is this true? Has the Muncie operation not produced even one locomotive? This is what is being reported by the London paper.
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Rockinon The London Free Press is reporting: Last October, Progress Rail had an open house at its Muncie plant, to herald its opening, with a locomotive on display. Only that locomotive was made in London and shipped to Muncie. "The majority of the work was done here -- they just put finishing touches on it there. I know they have had a hard time keeping people. You will not get a decent welders for the wages they are paying," said CAW head Tim Carrie. Is this true? Has the Muncie operation not produced even one locomotive? This is what is being reported by the London paper.
Unless you left it off, your quotes are clearly talking about the locomotive they had on display during their open house to celebrate the opening of the plant. Those quotes don't say anything about them not having produced any locomotives since then (They clearly couldn't have a Muncie built SD70Ace to show off at a celebration to mark the opening of the plant).
The paper reported,"They [Progress Rail Muncie plant] are behind schedule and there are some questions whether it will happen at all."
The paper, using The Economist as a source, also tells its readers, "Fewer than a quarter of the promised jobs [at the Muncie plant] have materialized, and not a single engine has rolled off the production line."
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/01/18/19263386.html
I have no doubt that the London plant is in danger of being closed. It is going to be a tough battle. Progress Rail has produced locomotives in Mexico with EMD name and is developing a plant in Brazil. Is it possible that if the jobs leave London, they may not go to Muncie but to Mexico and maybe Brazil?
EMD London employees can comiserate with the Wichita Boeing employees
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57361398/jilted-by-boeing-wichita-workers-feel-duped/
Muncie is not the first place to be backlogged.Has anyone noticed that GE is building a new plant in Dallas area?
Pure unregulated capitalism in action.
Phoebe Vet Pure unregulated capitalism in action.
Union-busting at its best/worst.
....I'm in Muncie. At the celebration and open house {for the invited} photo in our paper showed the new engine inside, but I wondered {at the time}, how it could have been produced at the plant at this point...
I also noted it was setting on a section of track like it was just placed on the plant floor...Didn't understand what that was all about.
Just in the last day or so, we had a bit more info in our local Muncie paper....For any interested: It's...."thestarpress.com" You might be able to pull up some back copies and see articles.
Have seen in articles locally: Number of employees will take longer to be needed with reference to economic activity currently....But overall, it appears the economy {in general}, is improving now.
Also have seen figures of comparison of wages between the Canadian plant and the new start up operations here.
There are rails already right into the plant....That's one thing that made me wonder why that engine {pictued}, was setting on what looked like a section of track that was placed on the plant floor.
Very heavy power transformers were produced by this plant in the past, hence...the rails already inside the assembly area for those massive transformers, and it also has massive capacity rolling overhead cranes already in the plant.
Plant was built as a Westinghouse plant and later operated by ABB.
It is big enough to probably do what Progress Rail expects to do here.
I really have not heard nor read of any question the fact it will actually build product here. Just my
Very strange. I have absolutely no doubt that the skilled workers living in Muncie could build locomotives. Yet, it does appear that Progress Rail is having a difficult time staffing the plant. Possibly the pay is too low? And from the few responses that I have received, it is beginning to appear that the locomotive so proudly displayed at the Muncie plant opening was built, for the most part, in the London, Ontario facility.
If they're having difficulty in staffing the plant now when unemployment is just starting to come down from 10% then I'd say it's a money issue. I've read that wages are $12.50 an hour. That's great for a kid just starting out but not so good for someone skilled with 20 years on the job. They're offering $16.50 an hour in London... its just not market competitive. They may get some people for that, but the locomotives that come out of there will be like your 12 dollar haircut.
.......And what's wrong with a twelve dollar haircut.....?
RockinonAnd from the few responses that I have received, it is beginning to appear that the locomotive so proudly displayed at the Muncie plant opening was built, for the most part, in the London, Ontario facility. Why would they, Progress Rail, bother with such a subterfuge? Is there anyway to confirm where a locomotive was built? I've heard of something called a "trace"
And producing something like a SD70Ace requires more than flipping a switch. It's going to no doubt be a slow and gradual process before they ramp up to their full capabilities. Happens at any manufacturing plant, especially with something as complex as a modern locomotive. It happens and no doubt was expected that they were going to have some growing pains in the early days. Check out the history of Ford's massive Willow Run plant that they opened during WWII to produce B-24 heavy bombers for perhaps the most famous example of what we're talking about. It took quite sometime for things to start going smoothly and there were lots of difficulty and controversy (And maybe even a Congressional hearing, if I remember right) in the early months before it started to meet its potential. Yet by 1944, it was turning out 650 Liberators a month and eventually accounted for half of the over 18,000 B-24's produced (Which incidently is the most produced American combat aircraft in history and no doubt will remain as such for all time).
I don't really get the problen you think there is in regards to this plant. I can understand the negative feelings about what is going on in London and sympathize (Although I suspect they were glad to get the jobs that several hundred folks in LaGrange lost in the late 1980's), but just talking about the goings on down in Muncie from what I've been reading sounds like what they probably expected during the early months of operation.
Thank you Mr. Ames:
There has been some confusion surrounding the locomotive on display at the grand opening in Muncie. I am beginning to get a much clearer picture thanks to you and some of the other people who have responded to my inquiries.
I was raised near Detroit and studied art there back in the mid '60s. I can recall when rust belt cities were among the best places in the whole world to live. I find the serious financial and social difficulties that have eroded cities like Detroit, Flint, and yes, Muncie, et al. all very sad.
I don't blame the unions for the demise of the Midwest powerhouse, although they are not blameless. There were, and are, some serious holes in our understanding of how successful capitalism works. I honestly believe that successful capitalism delivers more than money to those at the top and to the stockholders. And I wonder about companies, like Caterpillar, that seem to have so little respect for their workers. (To put myself through school I worked in a number of automotive plants and to this day I have respect for the men and women who do can deliver quality work --- day in, day out --- while pumping out well made product as they work on the factory floor.)
The big problem with unions is that they have not been able to keep up with the times. Big business has been able to adjust to globalization...companies like CAT have become adept at skipping around the world to take advantage of the best opportunities. The unions, on the other hand, have not adjusted to globalization. Thus even the largest unions have only a regional (not global) representation, and companies can then threaten to move their plants to get around the unions. The unions need to become more global in their outlook...its tough, but that is theeir only hope in longterm success.
Rockinon There were, and are, some serious holes in our understanding of how successful capitalism works. I honestly believe that successful capitalism delivers more than money to those at the top and to the stockholders.
There were, and are, some serious holes in our understanding of how successful capitalism works. I honestly believe that successful capitalism delivers more than money to those at the top and to the stockholders.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
To Ed Benton: This is one of the things I like about driving, It is kind of hard to outsource. Of course I can just see it someday, A scalemaster orders the driver into the scalehouse and has to wait for him/her to fly in from India. (Remotely Operated Vehicle!!)
Thx IGN
I doubt that will happen for one reason. Can you imagine what would happen if the Interent crashed while a driver was trying to go over Donner in a Blizzard and and he wiped out a bussload of Schoolkids. I would NOT want to be the Company that came up with that IDEA.
True, but you could easily automate an unmanned train.
Driverless cars and trucks are in our future, but I suspect it is a quite distant future.
Then again, in the 1950s few people believed we would be on the moon in 1969.
CAW Members Block Caterpillar Train in Ingersoll
http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1644535
Things seem to have warmed up a little..
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
By the way..what is interesting is that the train..in this case, an Ontario Southland train was taking a semi-assembled locomotive to a painting facility near Tillsonburg ON....
The locomotive was one of the last to be assembled at the Electro-Motive plant and was moved just prior to the Jan. 1 lockout so it could be delivered to a customer in Brazil. Scott said the locomotive has been tracked by the union and most recently was at a testing facility in Stratford. The locomotive was en route to a facility near Tillsonburg to be painted before it's delivered
Scott said the locomotive has been tracked by the union and most recently was at a testing facility in Stratford. The locomotive was en route to a facility near Tillsonburg to be painted before it's delivered
From...http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/01/25/19291636.html
As a general rule, I am a supporter of unions however, that track is the property of either CAT or the railroad. Either way they are trespassing. I don't understand why they are being allowed to hold that locomotive without the permission of the owner.
Cat is getting ready to Hire at a few plants near me if they stay in IL how knows with what IL is doing with Taxes after the next Contract is up. What do they Start new UNION workers at around 17 Bucks an HR for New Workers and these are the Welders. Federal Signal Corp starts out Welders at 18 an hour 5 houses down from MY HOUSE. That is 3rd Shift so there is a 1 Buck an hour Shift Diff BTW both Places are UNION. Do the Math 17 bucks an hour with only 10% over time a year and FSC offers that and MORE is 39 Grand a Year and their Insurance there is only 100 a MONTH FOR A FAMILY. My Wife and I get by on LESS than that a year. Plus Both CAT and FSC offer PENSIONS and all the other Retirement plans WTF is the CAW Problem I know they are not owned by GM and so the REALITY OF THE REAL WORLD IS BITING THEM IN THE BUTT FOR THE FIRST TIME.
Well, I think there are going to be a lot of unemployed people up here...or working at $10.35 an hour...which, by the way, is our provinces minimum wage now.
The thing of it is is that there are not a lot of people who really know how to live within their means..especially when it goes from $34 an hour to $17 an hour...your talking about going from, say, $60,000 per year to $32,000 per year awful darn quick. The issue here that I have is that these same people are going to see none of that..they are going to see UI instead. I'd rather see them working than to see our unemployment rate go even higher than it is. As it is...450 extra unemployed there is going to equate to an extra 1200 jobs out as well, as the parts suppliers will be out as well.
Then, factor in the profit that CAT has registered and all that hoohaw over the CEOs take home package...and ...well....
Oh well, more unemployed people coming right up....
...or...some will move or start their own businesses. Crappy jobs and huge pay cuts act as a stimulus to people who have some initiative. Anger and frustration are great motivators. Some will not roll over and take the $16.50 an hour offer. For now they are fighting for their jobs.. There may be some short term losses however over the longterm we wil thrive from the lessons learned.
Maybe some of the displaced former employees will start a new - or join an existing - locomotive manufacturing, rebuild, or repair shop, or similar railroad vehicle assembly operation. After all, not too far away is GE Erie, Brookville Locomotive, NS' "Thoroughbred Mechanical Services" Juniata Back Shop in Altoona, CAF assembling Amtrak's 130 single-level cars in Elmira, NY, and Larry's Truck Electric in Ohio (see the current issue of Trains), or even EMD in Muncie, Indiana . . .
Yes, a recently unemployed Canadian is going to be able to easily get a work visa to work in US Facilities. Sorry, that simply doesn't seem likely at all. Especially given the current US mood for hiring local.
Also, Ed, are you suggesting that the people making $30/hr+ for EMD are simply Welders? Because everything I've heard as that those pay rates are for skilled labor, not simple welders.
As for why they can block the train. I believe this is a quirk of Canadian law. I feel like a very similar thing occurred with a first nations strike a few years ago.
I was just thinking in relation to the announced BNSF SD70ACe-P4 order that maybe EMD/CAT has slashed prices in order to get this order. I mean BNSF hasn't ordered an EMD for use outside of coal since before they were merged. Something must have encouraged this change and I suspect it is cost. Maybe EMD/CAT is trying to cut their prices and to do that they need to slash costs.
Doesn't make me sympathize with CAT and their negotiating techniques, but I would be far more comfortable with that then if it were purely to improve the margins per loco.
It's being reported Progress Rail will have a "Jobs Fair" next week here in Muncie.
A bit of info indicates: $12.00 to $18.50 wages....bennefits include 401k....insurance incl. dental....generous vac. time.....Various holidays, etc....
Local officials here in Muncie {city officials}, understand there is an ongoing issue between the employer and bargaining group up in Canada, and they continue to express they do not want to sway or interfere with that issue up in Canada.
Of course everyone here would be glad for all the employment the Muncie plant will produce now and going forward.
Modelcar It's being reported Progress Rail will have a "Jobs Fair" next week here in Muncie. A bit of info indicates: $12.00 to $18.50 wages....bennefits include 401k....insurance incl. dental....generous vac. time.....Various holidays, etc.... Local officials here in Muncie {city officials}, understand there is an ongoing issue between the employer and bargaining group up in Canada, and they continue to express they do not want to sway or interfere with that issue up in Canada. Of course everyone here would be glad for all the employment the Muncie plant will produce now and going forward.
Wow. What a slap in the face to Americans. $12.00? You can make more at a McDonalds in North Dakota.
A slap in the face indeed... skilled labor at a fry cook's wage...
....More comments in our local paper again today. Recent meetings with officials, some bargining group people and city officials, and some other business people.
Main point of the story here in Muncie, is not to try to put one city against another...'nor one labor group against any other either.
They seem to be really trying to stay out of the labor dispute in Canada and not put our city against any other.
Of course Muncie officials {city}, certainly welcome any business that comes our way as appreciated. We have been a manufacturing town...{mostly automotive parts suppliers}, and have lost thousands of jobs in past decades.....Including the one I spent 37 years at.
Muncie is struggling to get back into prosperity like many other places are.
I hope Muncie does well...the people there deserve decent wages just as they do here. Over the long term these wage reductions will result in a worsening labor shortage as no one is going to take the time and money to learn a trade when a job as a fry cook in a diner pays just as much. Who would invest years in learning a trade when the end result is a job that pays only 12 to 18 an hour?
Don't worry; I'm sure there is a town in Mexico where the people would be thrilled to have $12 an hour jobs. After all, they don't have any of those evil unions.
Let's pass a few more tax cuts for the investor class. I'm sure that will help.
Maybe there is a point in doing what you love to do rather than what we are seeing now. I know food industry workers who love their job, even though they may not get as much as some do...
The issue that we are seeing up here is that it is not just the jobs at the locomotive plant but the 1,200 or so jobs from various parts suppliers/manufacturers here as well...of course one could go into healthcare related fields..as there seems to be a need there...
Maybe we could cut doctors' pay to $16/hr ...imagine the savings to the taxpayer. Many doctors say they go into the biz for the love of people..lets see how much they love people when their pay is brought down to earth..
Now your getting silly. The real problem is work rules and if EMD gets its way they would only need about 150 workers now 400 plus they have now for the same output.
creepycrank Now your getting silly.
Now your getting silly.
I agree.
Folks, lets ease up on the political throttle a bit before someone crosses the line on forum policies...
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Yikes: this is beginning to sound like inane sports announcers with all their foresight and hindsight into the complexities of a forthcoming game or a a game past, by simply expounding on the outcome, c'mon, what will happen will happen, it's already history as to this outcome.
creepycrank Now your getting silly. The real problem is work rules and if EMD gets its way they would only need about 150 workers now 400 plus they have now for the same output.
That doesn't sound right. If that we're in fact the case they would let the excess go instead of cutting everyone's wages in half...no? Yes, I was being silly, but now you're being silly too.
tatans Yikes: this is beginning to sound like inane sports announcers with all their foresight and hindsight into the complexities of a forthcoming game or a a game past, by simply expounding on the outcome, c'mon, what will happen will happen, it's already history as to this outcome.
Relax...just funin..
Don't worry..be happy..
This thread is tending to go downhill and .
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