Semper Vaporo SheldonLWfan: Thanks, but sorry, I cannot find any evidence of exactly where a Turntable or Roundhouse was. I can't even find any evidence of RR right of way anywhere in the area. The closest RR I can find is 7.5 miles to the southwest.
SheldonLWfan: Thanks, but sorry, I cannot find any evidence of exactly where a Turntable or Roundhouse was. I can't even find any evidence of RR right of way anywhere in the area. The closest RR I can find is 7.5 miles to the southwest.
Those tracks to the SW of Louisville are the Central of Georgia main, between Savannah and Macon. The Louisville and Wadley Railroad connected with the CofG at Wadley. This is about the center of the L&W/CG WYE in Wadley:
32 51 45.09N 82 24 34.49W
This link goes to a 1921 Sanborn insurance map, which shows the turntable:
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/sanborn/CityCounty/Louisville1921/Sheet4.html
The Louisville turntable was taken up in the late 1940s. I grew up in Louisville, and I never knew of a turntable until I had some correspondence in 2004 with Steve Flanigan on the subject of the L&W. As a teenager, I spend many days in one summer in the early 1960s, waiting for the three times a week L&W schedule from Wadley, and hopping aboard CG 37 riding in the Louisville area. I never saw anything regarding the turntable, so learning of the turntable came as a bit of a surprise.
I do hope the statute of limitations has run out on my cab rides.
No roundhouse facilities at Louisville. The turntable was used to turn the locomotives around for the return trip to Wadley. I believe in Clegg and Beebe's Mixed Train Daily, they comment the L&W ran locomotive tender first from Wadley and "its return was pilot first, as God intended, and in a Christian manner." So, it would appear the turntable was not fully functional when they visited Louisville.
Almost nothing of the railroad in the Louisville area is visible from Google Earth photos, but I know where the rails ran. When I was back in Louisville, July 2010, I did find some of the rail where the tracks crossed streets. All of the crossings have been paved over.
This link has a fair map of the old L&W route:
http://www.abandonedrails.com/Louisville_and_Wadley_Railroad
You can easily trace the L&W from the CG wye up towards Louisville.
This link states the service to Louisville was discontinued due to bridge failure over Boggy Gut Creek, just north of Wadley, but I've determined the bridge failure was actually the bridge over the Ogeechee River. I remember at some point in the 1980s that railcars were being stored on the L&W north Of Boggy Gut Creek.
Google satellite Forrest, IL. About 1/8 mile east of state route 47 on US route 24 is a white circle on the north side of hy 24. It is an old turntable pit with the turntable still in the ground. I believe it is from the N&W. RR tracks still run E & W. The right of way N & S are still visible on the map but the tracks are gone. The bldg left of the pit is also an old RR facility.
Kaukauna, WI where the Ghost Town Fitness Center is now had been the Milwaukee Lakeshore & Western MLS&W / Chicago & Northwestern C&NW roundhouse & turntable.
Spooner, WI on Roundhouse Road, the roundhouse for the Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Omaha RR CMSTP&P is still standing & visible on Google maps.
blx Spooner, WI on Roundhouse Road, the roundhouse for the Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Omaha RR CMSTP&P is still standing & visible on Google maps.
You have the railroad's name a bit mixed up, it was the Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis & Omaha RR. Known as the Omaha Road, its initials were the CStPM&O with official later reporting marks of CMO. Long an affiliate and then subsidiary of the C&NW, it was eventually merged into that company.
When I look a bit North Northeast of my coordinates I think I see what you see, and that may be it. When I put in your coordinates, I end up out in the country south east of Walla Walla. I maybe doing something wrong here. I live in Portland now, but I remember seeing the remains of the floor pattern of a round house just off N. 12th street on the west side of the railroad yard just north of Hwy. 12. I hope that helps. I've been wanting to visit WW lately, so maybe this is enough of an excuse.
Trainrev When I look a bit North Northeast of my coordinates I think I see what you see, and that may be it. When I put in your coordinates, I end up out in the country south east of Walla Walla. I maybe doing something wrong here. I live in Portland now, but I remember seeing the remains of the floor pattern of a round house just off N. 12th street on the west side of the railroad yard just north of Hwy. 12. I hope that helps. I've been wanting to visit WW lately, so maybe this is enough of an excuse.
I suppose that if you do get there and can do some looking around, without tresspassing! and can determine where the center of the turntable was, I would be glad to know that info. But even with my somewhat practiced eye at seeing the remains of a roundhouse, I just cannot see where one was in that area. I think only wishful thinking makes me see something at the coordinates I gave. (I tested my coordinates from my post by copying and pasting them into Google Earth and it just barely moved the view to the northeast when it was centered on yours, so I don't know why your system sent you off to the south east!)
We seem to be assumming it was just East of 12th Ave, North of W Elm St and South of Paine St. (if Elm and Paine crossed the area in question). If you break that area in to quadrants you will see that your original coordinates are in the SW quadrant and mine are in the NE one. I would really like to be at least that accurate. You might print a copy of the Google Earth image and try to pinpoint on the photo were the turntable was and then return to Google Earth to get the geographical coordinates.
Have fun, if you get a chance to go there. I am sure it would be easier to see any remnant of evidence on the ground, but I would not hold out much hope, given what can be seen from the images on Google Earth.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper
In St Thomas Ontario there is still a transfer table at the Elgin County Railway Museum. It's located in downtown St Thomas at the west end of the former Michigan Central shops just north of Wellington St and west of First Ave. I couldn't see it on Google Earth, however I know it's still there and occasionally in use. The MCRR yard in St Thomas also had a turntable near its east end but I believe this was removed late in the 1960's. Penn Central track layout diagrams and charts of the of the CASO Sub in 1964 IIRC show it.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
lenzfamily Semper In St Thomas Ontario there is still a transfer table at the Elgin County Railway Museum. It's located in downtown St Thomas at the west end of the former Michigan Central shops just north of Wellington St and west of First Ave. I couldn't see it on Google Earth, however I know it's still there and occasionally in use. The MCRR yard in St Thomas also had a turntable near its east end but I believe this was removed late in the 1960's. Penn Central track layout diagrams and charts of the of the CASO Sub in 1964 IIRC show it. Charlie Chilliwack, BC
The resolution of the images for St. Thomas are too poor to really make anything as detailed as a transfer table pit, but I would be pretty sure it is on one side of that large building in the middle of that area.
The Street View photos are pretty good and show the entrance to the museum and a 2 and a half story building with the top being what I think is probably an overhead transfer crane running nearly the length (N/S) of the building. But the building is too far away to make out what is near the ground next to it.
Is the transfer table outside of that building? If so, which side?
Meridian, MS.
Remember as a kid there was a roundhouse and a turntable from the GM&O years. Sorry no coordinates, but it is north of "A" Street, west of 27th avenue and east of 26th avenue. I can see where is was from google map. Just a little SW of there, use to be a maintainance shop where Martin Luther King drive crosses the RR, in the NW corner.
Thanks,
Ken Simpson
Just took a look at my track diagrams, and couldn't find evidence of many of the turntables that had been there (my diagram book had been updated into the 1960s). There were a few, but I couldn't Google-spot them.
Stone Cliff was just timetable east of Thurmond. Found where a yard was taken up, but no turntable pit.
In fact, the only one I had any success with that I didn't see on your list was Fulton (Richmond), Virginia. I still can't give you coordinates, but you have to follow the railroad and Virginia Route 5 southeast from the city.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Thanks. Here is that one and some others I have found since the last update:
That makes 614 in my list.
CShaveRR: Are you pointing the one I have listed as in Montrose VA?
Maybe I have the name wrong?
Yes, that's probably the one...I wouldn't have connected "Montrose" to the C&O. Sorry!
CShaveRR Yes, that's probably the one...I wouldn't have connected "Montrose" to the C&O. Sorry!
If there is any sorrow here it is mine. I find a feature of interest and then zoom out until the first labled red dot appears and that becomes the name I apply. I have noted that sometimes I seem to zoom out too fast for Google Earth to get the scene updated fully and I get a city that is a bit farther away than what I should use for the name. And then there are the places where the roundhouse was out on the fringe of a town with which it is traditionally associated and another town grew up around it and so the name I find is the 2nd one and no one knows what I am refering to. ("That's the Hickville roundhouse! It as torn down when Podunk was still a swamp.")
If you, (or anybody!) can supply a more correct name I would be quite appreciative of the information and will update my list accordingly. I only hope we don't get into arguments as to which name is more correct.
I have a spot in my Excel spreadsheet to list which RR the site belongs/belonged to, but ran out of mental agility trying to keep track of what to put there. Some changed hands and names more often that some folk change underwear and I ran into arguments as to the order of the names, so I gave up on that aspect.
It is similar to my trying to indicate what is/was at the location. There are some that were visible on Google Earth initially, but have since been torn down and turned into parking lots or something else that totally obliterates the evidence.
When, where I thought I saw a working turntable and fully functional roundhouse is now gone, how do I list it in a static chart, today?
When I started this I had two columns for whether there was a turntable and a roundhouse and I just listed "Yes" or "No" in each. Then I began to qualify the notation with "Working", or "Outline" or "Ruin" or "Relic" and I was not always consistent with my nomenclature, not that I see the same thing as I go back to look at them again.
Or what do I list for a partial roundhouse that does not (and apparently never did) have a turntable, but has just a fan of tracks to the stalls in a semi-circular wall? Then there are place with a turntable in front of a rectangular building and the radial tracks curve to enter the flat front of the building... Is that a "ROUNDhouse"??
I have seen places where there is only a footprint of the roundhouse left, but it is obvious from the radial pattern of concrete on the ground that there were two different roundhouses there with different centers for the turntables? It is just my somewhat practiced eye that detects the two, but I have no proof, so do I list both or just one? I guess I could do more research to see what I can find, but there is only so much time in a day and I have having too much fun just finding them.
Hi Semper,
I have a couple additions for New York:
Semper Vaporo lenzfamily: Semper In St Thomas Ontario there is still a transfer table at the Elgin County Railway Museum. It's located in downtown St Thomas at the west end of the former Michigan Central shops just north of Wellington St and west of First Ave. I couldn't see it on Google Earth, however I know it's still there and occasionally in use. The MCRR yard in St Thomas also had a turntable near its east end but I believe this was removed late in the 1960's. Penn Central track layout diagrams and charts of the of the CASO Sub in 1964 IIRC show it. Charlie Chilliwack, BC The resolution of the images for St. Thomas are too poor to really make anything as detailed as a transfer table pit, but I would be pretty sure it is on one side of that large building in the middle of that area. The Street View photos are pretty good and show the entrance to the museum and a 2 and a half story building with the top being what I think is probably an overhead transfer crane running nearly the length (N/S) of the building. But the building is too far away to make out what is near the ground next to it. Is the transfer table outside of that building? If so, which side?
lenzfamily: Semper In St Thomas Ontario there is still a transfer table at the Elgin County Railway Museum. It's located in downtown St Thomas at the west end of the former Michigan Central shops just north of Wellington St and west of First Ave. I couldn't see it on Google Earth, however I know it's still there and occasionally in use. The MCRR yard in St Thomas also had a turntable near its east end but I believe this was removed late in the 1960's. Penn Central track layout diagrams and charts of the of the CASO Sub in 1964 IIRC show it. Charlie Chilliwack, BC
SV
You experienced the same as I did with Google.
You are right. The large square building in the middle of the satellite picture is the former MCRR shops. The transfer table is on the left hand or west side of that building. From Google Earth street view, it is as you say. Table is to the left of the large building as you see it in that view, facing it, looking North.
In memory of some great hockey players who died when the plane carrying Lokomotiv Yaroslavl (Yaroslavl Locomotives, sponsored by RZD Russian State Railways) to their first game of the season. There is a Roundhouse and Turntable in Yaroslavl, Russia
57° 38' 00.14" N 39° 48' 43.19" E
RIP Pavol Demitra and teammates
Some additions from the last few replies and some time I spent this morning wandering around in southern France (I went looking for the Nuclear Plant where an explosion occurred some time today... never found the nuclear site, but did find 6 Turntables and Roundhouses! )
Note: In Google Earth, Lunel and Nimes, France have "Street View" images that take you right up to the turntable and roundhouse... Very unusual to get that close.
Here are 4 more Michigan entries:
Calumet, MI 47°14'27.00"N, 88°27'0.87"W Calumet & Hecla RH, repurposed Elberta, MI 44°37'39.25"N, 86°14'05.80"W Ann Arbor TT in buried pit, RH ruin Gladstone, MI 45°50'52.30"N, 87°01'50.29"W CN (Soo) TT & RH Hancock, MI 47° 8'1.32"N, 88°34'39.08"W Quincy & Torch Lake RH ruin
Calumet, MI 47°14'27.00"N, 88°27'0.87"W Calumet & Hecla RH, repurposed
Elberta, MI 44°37'39.25"N, 86°14'05.80"W Ann Arbor TT in buried pit, RH ruin
Gladstone, MI 45°50'52.30"N, 87°01'50.29"W CN (Soo) TT & RH
Hancock, MI 47° 8'1.32"N, 88°34'39.08"W Quincy & Torch Lake RH ruin
And a few more from France...
EDIT: And the added Michigan sites from the post made while I was busy creating this one!
Thanks MidlandMIke..
I noticed a couple of more that I didn't see on the list,
ME Bucksport 44°34'49.02"N, 68°48'26.88"W (MEC) TT
MI Alpena 45° 4'48.15"N, 83°25'54.59"W (D&M) RH
Also, there is a list of Roundhouses on the Trains Magazine site at Railroad Reference>Railroad History>Esisting roundhouses
Thanks Mike: here are yours and a few more additions of my own:
That makes 664 in my list. I will have to check my list (which includes both existing and vague evidence of roundhouses) against the Trains Magazine list. I wonder how many more that will add?
OOOookaaaay... I went through the Trains list mentioned above and added a few new ones, but also generated a lot of questions.
First the new ones that I do not have a problem adding:
That brings the total to 667. Nice to finally have one from Rhode Island; that leaves only Alaska as a state in which I have not found a roundhouse, turntable or transfer table.
I will get to the questions generated by the Trains list in my next postings.
About that Trains magazine list of existing roundhouses in the United States in 2010...
First, I hate to insult anyone, but a publication from a company whose major tool is language and its operation, someone has an abysmal understanding of alphabetizing... Brisbane does not come between Samoa and Sacramento, nor does Hugo come before Durango... and that is just the tip of the iceberg. Then there are the misspelled names, such as "Atanta", which I have assumed is supposed to be "Atlanta", not that I know for sure there is no location in Georgia of the that name, but I can't find it in Google Earths search function... not that I should complain, as my spelling is also atrocious
There are 182 items in the file. About half I had already found and from my posting, above you can see I added 34 from the file to my list.
I will assume here that those sites that have the same name in both the Trains list and my list are referring to the same site. I will list what I find could be the same site, but with different names in the two lists. If anyone knows which name is correct, I will update my list as necessary.
I will also list those entries in the Trains list that I cannot find any evidence of a roundhouse in the specified city.
Brisbane, CA... This city is south of a roundhouse I found that I associated with the name Bayshore, CA. 37°42'5.15"N, 122°24'23.23"W Does anyone know which is correct, or is there a different roundhouse in Brisbane that I have not found?
I found 2 Roundhouses in Colorado Springs, but the Trains list has only one. I don't know which one it is referring to (or if there is yet another it refers to)., or if one of mine should be associated with some other place name.
I could not find a roundhouse in New Haven, CT. Nor in the adjacent cities of West Haven, East Haven or North Haven. Does anyone know what location the Trains list refers to?
There is a W.Jacksonville, FL. in the Trains list, but Google Earth does not find such a name. I found a footprint (just the concrete floor in a Daisy petal pattern) in Jacksonville, FL. but I question whether it is the site referred to. The Trains list is supposed to be existing roundhouses in 2010 and Google Earth's Historical Imagery shows just scrub brush and debris back to 1994 (the foot print is clearer in more recent images where the debris has been cleared away). Is there a location known as West Jacksonville that has a roundhouse I have not been able to find?
I have 2 listed as in Cicero, IL, the Trains list has just one. Maybe one of mine should be associated with a different city.
IL Cicero 41°50'15.61"N 87°45'56.29"WIL Cicero 41°50'44.66"N 87°44'28.01"W
I have a listing for just outside of Joliet, IL. but it is just a turntable and the footprint of a full circle roundhouse now. The building was removed sometime between: 10/06/2009 and 06/30/2010.
Melrose Park, IL. I have a turntable listed in Stone Park, IL. (just west of Melrose Park) where the remains of a roundhouse were torn down somewhere between 1993 and 1998 (according the the Historical Imagery scenes). Should mine be named Melrose Park or is there one I have not found.
The Trains list has a Louisville, IN. I know of no cities in Indiana named Louisville. I considered that maybe the list has confused the Indiana cities (New Albany, Jeffersonville, and Clarksville) across the river with the Kentucky city of Louisville (or "lou'vul" if you are from the area!), but I could not find any roundhouse evidence on the Indiana side. Is it possible that it is referring to the Kentucky and Indiana RR roundhouse in Louisville at: 38°16'7.55"N, 85°48'8.54"W ?
Well, that takes care of the 1st page of the pdf file (plus 2 entries)... I'll question more later!
Semper Vaporo Melrose Park, IL. I have a turntable listed in Stone Park, IL. (just west of Melrose Park) where the remains of a roundhouse were torn down somewhere between 1993 and 1998 (according the the Historical Imagery scenes). Should mine be named Melrose Park or is there one I have not found.
Call it Proviso!
Melrose Park would be correct, as Stone Park doesn't extend quite that far west (or on that side of Lake Street, for that matter). However, the roundhouse (and the turntable, which is still used) belongs to Proviso Yard, whose footprint actually covers portions of five or six Chicago suburbs in two counties (and Stone Park isn't one of them!).
(I was a resident of Stone Park for a couple of years before my wife snatched me away from there and married me!)
That is another delema... Do I name it by the company name for the yard or by the city in which it resides? The yard name might change if the company changes, but it may not actually reside in just one city (like Provisio Yard). I think using the city name would make it easier to mentally understand. But even city names can change or bigger cities grow up around an area that was initially built away from the original city.
For now I think I'll do it this way:
(Hopefully, the Latitude and Longitude will not change! )
While I agree that alphabetization of the entries in Trains' roundhouse list would have made it easier to work with, I appreciate their effort in creating this valuable reference tool. Theirs has more historical context, while your list has more of a geographical context. I am hoping some one combines the two.
Their site in Colorado Springs denoted for Colorado Midland is your site at 38° 50' 25" N,, 104° 51' 36" W, I know this since I visited there when it was a well known pottery studio.
Regarding New Haven, there is a picture showing an overview if the Cedar Hill yard on page 51 of the Kalmbach publication "The New Haven Railroad along the Shore Line". It shows two large roundhouses. Their former locations are only discernible by ground patterns at
41°19'39.07"N, 72°53'33.16"W and 41°19'34.56"N, 72°53'29.97"W
Maybe the "motor" shops are still standing.
Thank you MidlandMike. After you pointed the coord's out to me the footprints of the two roundhouses stick out like sore toes in a dark bedroom full of cedar chests!
So here are the latest additions:
I have been looking for one in North Platte for a long time, but could not see it... now it too sticks out like a sore thumb. Maybe the images have been updated recently?
Yes, the Trains list has the historical aspect to it and that is a good thing. I too tried to add that to my list and I still have a column on my spreadsheet that can have the RR name and I have a column for comments that has some historical info, (and it would be easy to add more columns for other data) but when I was actively trying to add that info I found it too difficult to get factual data and there was often some argument as to which RR really built the roundhouse or who it belongs to now (which changes too often to really keep up with) so I gave up on that aspect for a while, to just get the geographic locations down. I can go back and add the historical info at some later time.
I also have many places in the Google Earth KMZ file that has more info and some of those just magically appeared when I created my reference to it... Some sort of feature in Google Earth does this, but I don't understand it, I just let it happen and may at a later time copy some of that info to the Excel spreadsheet.
I have another post to make with questions about the next page of the Trains list... stay tuned...
Some more questions from the Trains magazine list of existing roundhouses in the United States in 2010...
The Trains list has a Rock Island roundhouse in Iowa City, IA, listed as a "4 stall business". I have one roundhouse in Iowa City, but I was told it was a Burlington, Cedar Rapids and Northern RR roundhouse presently used as a bar/tavern, and from Google Earth it appears to be only 2 stalls. I do not know the linage of either RI or BCR&N, so I don't have a handle on whether the two references are of the same location... there are RR tracks about 3 blocks south of the pie-slice shaped building, but no evidence of there ever being any to its location (all streets, alleys and buildings now). Does anyone know more info about either of these referenced roundhouses? Are they one and the same? Is the one I have listed really a remnant of a roudhouse?
I have a roundhouse listed as in Davenport, IA, but not one in Nahant, the city listed in the Trains list. I do see a Nahant Marsh Education Center marker near the one I have listed, so maybe that name is more appropriate. Anybody know?
The Trains list shows a roundhouse existant in Sioux City, IA, but all I can find is a turntable and a vague outline of a roundhouse NorthEast of Sioux City and a turntable and roundhouse in "North Sioux City, but I am thinking the second one I have not named properly because North Sioux City is in a peninsula dangling down from the southeast corner of South Dakata. So I am tempted to change that name to drop the "North" part... anybody know for sure?
The Trains list has a "Shelby, Kentucky" C&O roundhouse listed. I cannot find a "Shelby" other than a general area (County?) There is a Shelbyville, but I see no roundhouses near it. Again, does anyone know what roundhouse the Trains list is about?
Whoops, a duplicate of the Aurora, IL CB&Q roundhouse interrupts the list.
The Trains list has a Hyannis, Masschusetts roundhouse, but I think the city is usually referred to as Hyannis Port. I added the roundhouse I found as Hyannis, but I'd like to know if it would be more properly listed as Hyannis Port.
I have a roundhouse listed as being in South Portland, Maine, but the Trains list shows only Portland, ME. Does anyone know the correct name to apply? Or is there another roundhouse in the area that I have not found yet?
I cannot find a roundhouse at Phillips, ME per the Trains list. I can't even find any evidence of RR tracks! Help?
I finally found a N. Maine Jct, ME, but the "N." means "Northern", not just "North" (Google Earth does not find anything useful using either "N." or "North"). I have a roundhouse near the place that Google Earth finds in conjuction with the name "Northern Maine Jct", but I found it a long time ago and named it Hermon. Does anyone know the best name to use?
I don't see a roundhouse associated with a turntable in Milinocket, ME. Is there another that I have missed?
Calais, ME seems to be the name applied to an urban area south, across the river from St. Stephen, ME and I can see the remnants of a ROW along the river, but I see no roundhouse in the area. Anyone help?
Whoops, 3 more Massachusetts cities to go with the lone one out of order above.
I can find no roundhouse in Revere, MA. Anybody confirm the one listed in the Trains list?
There is an East Deerfield shown in Google Earth, but only if you enter a search for it; it is on the south side of a large switch yard with a roundhouse on the north side. I have the roundhouse listed as Greenfield, a city to the northwest of the yard. Does anyone know which name is correct.
The Trains list shows "N.Buffalo" but I only find a "New Buffalo" and it does have a roundhouse. Help needed here too.
I cannot find evidence of a roundhouse in Sault St. Marie, MI. Anyone know where it might have been?
Well, that takes care of the rest of the 2nd page of the Trains pdf file. There are some more Michigan to do, but I'll list them in my next missive about page 3.
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