Which only brings us back to the original question of whether he was trespassing on railroad property. If he was, he will be convicted, if not he won't. That's what proof beyond a reasonable doubt is about. Of course, if he even stuck his toe over the property line, he was trespassing, as trespassing is a strict liability offense.
8 N' Sand
Sitting in the bushes is only suspicious if you are actually seen... so far I never have!
Furthermore, the point was made that the guy is only going to be convicted IF he was actually trespassing. So how do you know if he was trespassing? The cop's word. .
Seriously if you get a report of someone with a "device" on the tracks, yeah the cops should come and check it out by all means but what they should not do is assume guilt from the get go and then bend facts because they want to ensure that the guy is guilty - a good cop is one who wants to find out the truth of what was happening and then act according to that - a bad cop is someone who hears on the radio "there is a possibly a guy with a device" and then assumes that there is no possible alternate story there, and you're automatically guilty upon arrival.
You seem very biased against the police. And lest you think I am some pro-police person, that would be dead wrong. Why take the word of some adolescent who certainly seems pretty idiosyncratic and also seems aware of and even enjoys the negative reaction he and his pals get around rails and stations, over that of several adult police?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
If I'm on a train and see you hiding in the bushes - you will be way more suspicious than some guy standing out in the open with a camera.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am biased against certain police officers -
I've been stopped numerous times railfanning. Also for the record, I don't really care for pictures I just watch the trains so I don't have a big camera on me. I will admit most of the time the officer is nice and courteous........... I had a guy take away my pepper spray once because he said it's "illegal to have" - the same pepper spray other cops saw and had no problem with. And then the cop made out like he was doing me a favor by "not taking me to jail" - SERIOUSLY? Oh by the way, let me mention that this incident wasn't even next to the RR tracks, it was in a public parking lot as I was returning to my car after railfanning, it was at night and he found it very suspicious that someone would park their car in a public parking lot at night when nobody else was there... he also really didn't like the fact that I had a scanner and railroad atlas with me. And I asked him how he knew I was here and he said he was just driving by and saw an empty car in the lot and wanted to check it out, so it's not even like someone called me in about something. Yeah, I am real *** off about that.
Another time I was parked by Eola yard in Chicago at night and a cop pulled by and asked what I was doing - but she was real nice. Didn't search me, didn't assume anything wrong, I just explained it to her and she said ok. That's how it should play out - but as a railfan when you're approached by a cop you just never know what their attitude will be.
Most police officers are good people - but the fact is that I never know when that one a-hole will come around and arrest me on some stupid BS charge and then I have all these legal problems... by staying out of sight like in the bushes I just don't get involved in any of that.
I just want to watch my trains in peace and not be bothered, that's all.
Here's another story - I was railfanning at night, and I parked on a deserted residential street and I walked over to the tracks. Stayed by the tracks for about an hour, went back to my car there were two cops by my car. So supposedly when I parked my car there some lady thought it "suspicious" that I had parked my car on the street at night and then went digging in my trunk before walking off (I was looking for my other batteries for my scanner). So this lady called 911 because yes I was on a public street at night. Ok, so I get back there and by the time I get back apparently the cops did a search of the area and around the back of the houses - and one asked if I didn't see them, which I really didn't because I was nowhere near the houses I was by the tracks. Anyways one of the cops was nice - he listened to my story and believed me - and the other guy automatically thought I was guilty and lying - I had some binoculars with me and he told me there is no reason to have binoculars at night except to peep into people's houses - how about seeing the numbers on a locomotive from a distance to see if it's the train that I heard on my scanner? But the point here is that one guy was nice and professional, and the other guy was an a-hole who automatically assumed I was out to burglarize someone and really didn't care what I had to say.
I've always been let go by the cops but seriously getting stopped and having to play the dog and pony show gets old. The ironic thing is that every time I've stayed out of site next to the tracks I've never been stopped at the tracks - it's always been going to my car after railfanning, which is also legally parked but usually in some secluded area. The point is never argue with a cop because when it's just you and him it doesn't really matter what is written in the law - the law is whatever the cop says it is and arguing with the cop or trying to prove him wrong will just$1****$2off the cop. Court is your time to argue but it's just so much better to not even get arrested in the first place.
One is judged by the appearance of his or her behavior. If you are doing something ambiguous that can easily look suspicious, as in the two situations you describe, even if what you were actually doing was quite innocent and harmless, then you shouldn't be surprised at getting stopped and questioned.
schlimm One is judged by the appearance of his or her behavior. If you are doing something ambiguous that can easily look suspicious, as in the two situations you describe, even if what you were actually doing was quite innocent and harmless, then you shouldn't be surprised at getting stopped and questioned.
I am not disagreeing that the behavior was suspicious and the cops came and questioned me - but what I saw were two different attitudes among cops:
1. Certain cops had an "Ok let's get to the scene, talk to the people and see what's going on" attitude before making any judgements - and I respect those people as they were just doing their jobs and I don't have a problem with them.
2. Other cops had a "Ok this is unusual so this guy MUST be up to no good" attitude and come at you "knowing" that you are guilty of some big crime and they are determined to bust you no matter what because you're just scum they want to get off the streets - these cops are the ones I have a problem with.
From my perspective, you never know which kind of cop you'll get and as I mentioned before at the scene the law is whatever the cop says the law is, and that's why it's better to stay out of sight and out of mind.
As zugman pointed out, if a person were seen hiding in bushes by the tracks (highly suspicious), the police would come and then act first and ask questions later.
schlimm As zugman pointed out, if a person were seen hiding in bushes by the tracks (highly suspicious), the police would come and then act first and ask questions later.
Alright, but let me point out that in both of the above police encounters A) the "event" that brought the police to me had NOTHING to do with me being around railroad tracks and B) both incidents happened on public streets and/or parking lots. I was completely visible and not trying to hide any of those times. If anything it taught me that hiding works because every time I stay out of sight I never run into any trouble and if I'm obvious about my activities that just invites unwanted scrutiny. And about the "act first and ask questions later" - well the police didn't really have to act - I mean it's not like I was running from them or actually doing anything bad - it was the ask questions part, instead of asking questions to find out what you are doing here and give you the benefit of the doubt certain police officers "assume" you must be guilty because let's face it railfanning is not mainstream and is easily mistaken for foul play, and when you try to educate the officer about what you're doing they just think you're lying and up to no good, that's wrong.
Being on deserted street at nite in a residential neighborhood with binoculars really could set you up as appearing to be a voyeur or something else of a possibly criminal nature. That would be the natural conclusion of most people, including the police.
Again, don't you guys (and gals) have railfan club identification with you?
Get on the Amtrak and/or BNSF programs if you don't and carry the identification with you!
I agree that being on a deserted residential street at night could be a bit suspicious, but FYI I had my binoculars in my pocket and the cops did not know about them until they searched me. I understand why they stopped me but that's not the point I'm trying to argue here -
Schlimm let me ask you a direct question - given the scenario I was in and the cops that approached me, which of the following two do you think is an appropriate police attitude:
1. There is a suspicious person on the street - let's talk to that person and find out what they were doing, and then pass judgement.
2. There is a suspicious person on the street - it's unusual that they are there therefore they MUST be up to no good and I "know" that they are guilty of some crime.
Please let me know which attitude you think is appropriate.
And to davekelpper - yes I have both the Amtrak and BNSF cards - some cops appreciated that, other cops have told me it's a piece of paper and didn't care a bit. All comes down to cop attitude, outside RR police no police departments have ever heard of or know what those cards are.
The "proper" police behavior should be to stop you and ask questions and take appropriate actions based on their observations and whatever the phoned in complaint was.. The attitude (an internal mental state) will vary from one policeman to another. There are some police who are too quick to jump to false conclusions and fewer who then use excessive force. You have no control over that. You do have control over what you do, knowing that appearances do count.
schlimm The "proper" police behavior should be to stop you and ask questions and take appropriate actions based on their observations and whatever the phoned in complaint was.. The attitude (an internal mental state) will vary from one policeman to another. There are some police who are too quick to jump to false conclusions and fewer who then use excessive force. You have no control over that. You do have control over what you do, knowing that appearances do count.
I agree with that - and my entire problem here is with the cops who jump to false conclusions right away - in my opinion that's probably around 25% of cops, which is a sizeable percentage. I know that I have no control over a cop's attitude and that's why all I need is a single cop with a bad attitude to land me in jail.
Getting back to the original video posted by the kid in this post, that's the exact problem I have with the police who showed up to the scene - when the cops showed up, it seemed like they already "knew" the kid was guilty and were determined to haul him off to jail no matter what - it didn't matter what the kid had to say in the eyes of the cops he was guilty on arrival. And this has strung a personal chord with me because while I'm fortunate in the fact that I've never been arrested I've experienced very similar situations and I think that's not right.
I don't believe Grice was "hauled of to jail." I think that is probably an exaggeration. I also believe the entire incident was: one, over-dramatized and two, an account given by only one person party to it. We have no knowledge of the veracity of any of his story, even a month later, even after the scheduled appearance date has past. Call me skeptical, but I prefer to see some verification rather than jump on a bandwagon, as some around here did, of condemning police actions or potential abuse. No report of the incident on any of the newspapers' "police-blotters."
zugmann .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...?
.....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...?
zardoz zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...? Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me.
zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...?
Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me.
Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right?
So where do I sign up?
Sawtooth500 zardoz: zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...? Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me. Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up?
zardoz: zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...? Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me.
zugmann:
YES! Where can I sign on the dotted line?
Sawtooth500 Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up?
Yeah, because cab rides DON'T get boring after the 4th one...
zugmann Sawtooth500: Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up? Yeah, because cab rides DON'T get boring after the 4th one...
Sawtooth500: Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up?
Hey they are exciting when your current cab ride count is at zero...
zardoz Sawtooth500: zardoz: zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...? Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me. Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up? First, you have to go to college for 4 years so you can learn absolutely nothing about railroading; then if you do get the job, your duties will entail telling 30-year veterans how to pull the throttle....
Sawtooth500: zardoz: zugmann: .....sitting in the bushes isn't suspicious at all...? Sounds like a Trainmaster-In-Training to me. Trainmasters can go for a cab ride whenever they want, right? So where do I sign up?
First, you have to go to college for 4 years so you can learn absolutely nothing about railroading; then if you do get the job, your duties will entail telling 30-year veterans how to pull the throttle....
Shhhh dont hate on me too much...
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
After reading this entire thread, here are my observations:
-The kid was probably not doing anything harmful or illegal, except possibly stepping on the ROW, which we'll never know for sure without some significant video evidence. All we have is the (multiple) cops' word.
-The police, while they were acting in the public interest, could have handled the situation better. Much better. Personally, I think many cops are kids that were picked on when they were little and now have a "power trip" complex as adults. Not all of them. But a significant portion of them (25%, as someone posted earlier?) They just seem to like "getting back" at all those people that abused them when they were younger. This doesn't lessen the respect I have for the job that they do, but it's a fact. I'm a law-abiding, concealed-carry permit holding citizen, and when I'm asked by cops for ID, (and I provide both my drivers license and my CC permit,) I usually get hassled.
-Take pics from an overpass, not next to the tracks. Get over it.
All of this nonsense allegedly occurred two months ago. And what occurred on this thread? A blind acceptance of the validity of this story and a knee-jerk condemnation of the police. ["O-V-E-R - R-E-A-C-T-I-O-N"] There was never any report by the kid or his supporters or the local media of the final disposition of the incident or outcome.
Slow day, so we had to try and pick open an old scab?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Pick Pick! It's bleeding now! All I have to say is you'd have a slightly different opinion of the cops if you've ever been unduly harassed by an overzealous cop - about 75% of them in my opinion are fine but about 25% have a complex of some sort - like the genius who took away my pepper spray because we should rely on the police for protection. Yeah if I'm in trouble I'd rather a cop be there but if someone is coming at me and there is no cop there I'd much rather have a weapon with me so at least I could defend myself! But not according to this cop!
Murphy Siding Slow day, so we had to try and pick open an old scab?
Dan
This is why you only railfan on foggy days.
zugmann This is why you only railfan on foggy days.
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